Romans 8:1-2, is conditional
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You do not see the joke here, I see. Knowing Jesus is actually knowing everyone.
Through the creator you get the real focus. And then you know we need everyone,
we need to share, to be open, to open the door, to be and to see.
It is those who walk in darkness who only see themselves, and think that is all
there is. But in the Kingdom there is everything.
Through the creator you get the real focus. And then you know we need everyone,
we need to share, to be open, to open the door, to be and to see.
It is those who walk in darkness who only see themselves, and think that is all
there is. But in the Kingdom there is everything.
So everytime we sin, we have to confess SO THAT God will forgive us?
What does Scripture say is required for the forgiveness of sins?
The shedding of blood.
Did Jesus already shed His Blood?
Yes.
Is He coming back to shed more Blood?
No.
Why?
Because once was enough.
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for the confession of sins - we are to come to the Throne of God's Grace boldly in our times of need, and we are to confess our sins one to another so that we can receive prayer and healing and forgiveness from those we've sinned against if needed.
Let's think this through regarding our sins in relation to God for a minute:
Jesus' sacrifice was a once for all sins, for all time sacrifice.
You sin.
You ask God for forgiveness.
In order for there to be more forgiveness, there has to be shedding of blood.
Jesus isn't coming back to shed more Blood.
So either
- Jesus' Blood was enough to forgive all our our sins (to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness), and
- God is not holding our sins against us (those who are in Christ).
OR . . . perhaps . . . just maybe . . .
- We've been taught the wrong interpretation of 1 Jn. 1:9, a teaching that may not say, but means that Jesus' Blood was really not enough to cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and
- God is holding our sins against us.
Which concept does Scripture support?
-JGIG
Please re-read what I wrote:
Originally Posted by reneweddaybyday
The word confess is the Greek word homologeō and it means to say the same thing as another. What that means is that we agree with God that we have missed the mark laid out in His Word.
We know when have broken fellowship with Father for whatever reason and we know when we have missed the mark. That is what the word "sin" (Greek hamartia) means ... to miss the mark. God lets us know directly by prodding us. He is very hands-on and we become convicted in our hearts. In other words, we know in our heart of hearts when we have broken fellowship.
We agree with God that we have stumbled and God, as a loving, faithful, heavenly Father opens His arms to us and brings us close to Him.
The word confess is the Greek word homologeō and it means to say the same thing as another. What that means is that we agree with God that we have missed the mark laid out in His Word.
We know when have broken fellowship with Father for whatever reason and we know when we have missed the mark. That is what the word "sin" (Greek hamartia) means ... to miss the mark. God lets us know directly by prodding us. He is very hands-on and we become convicted in our hearts. In other words, we know in our heart of hearts when we have broken fellowship.
We agree with God that we have stumbled and God, as a loving, faithful, heavenly Father opens His arms to us and brings us close to Him.
My intent is not to be contentious here, as I've enjoyed several of your posts here at CC, but this is a sticking point for even many of those who hold to the Gospel of Grace.
Please provide Scripture that tells us that we ever lose/have broken 'fellowship' with God because of sin. Religion has made up this concept to 'keep the flock in line' - it's a fear motivation in efforts to keep people from sinning. You're not quite damned eternally, but you don't have 'fellowship' with God either. It's like He withdraws His Spirit from you or something? Temporarily until you admit to Him that you messed up and ask for His forgiveness?
I did not misread what you wrote previously:
These verses indicate the fellowship the believer has with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. Wonderful fellowship.
And sometimes the believer steps out of fellowship with Father and Son through sin, as we sometimes miss the mark. We stumble in our walk.
When we stumble, we know we have an advocate with the Father ... our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1).
And when we stumble, we are instructed in 1 John 1:9 to confess our sin to Father and He is faithful and just to forgive.
Hence my post.
From what you wrote, it seems that you believe that to have fellowship with God, you must keep your sins forgiven by confession, not that we who are in Christ HAVE fellowship with God BECAUSE we are forgiven.
If we do not agree with your understanding of 1 Jn. 1:9 we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord?
Scourging is a mis-translation in Hebrews 12 - God does not beat His children using an instrument of torture, which is what a scourge was. A great teaching on this can be found HERE.
No, the discipline of God is not punishment for our past (see 1 Jn. 4), but teaching/preparing us for our future.
God tells us in Ephesians 6, 'Children, obey your parents; fathers do not exasperate your children.'
Would you not be exasperated if God beat you to 'teach you a lesson'?
I've been on the receiving end of beatings as a child, resulting in raised, painful welts and deep, large areas of bruising, and let me assure you, they do not lead to improved behavior (and I was a pretty good kid to begin with!) or yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness, but to exasperation, frustration, anger, fear, and hopelessness.
Thankfully, God showed me that passage in Ephesians 6 and spoke to my heart, "This is not the way I intended things to be. This is not of Me. I will not control the will of the one doing this to you, but I will walk through this with you." God revealed His heart to me in this area very early on (age 11), and I have never forgotten His promise to me that day as I sat in utter discouragement and hopelessness. I was already His child (saved at age 8), but that day He saved my mind and heart from damage.
I've posted this teaching at CC a few times and link to it above - please give it a listen to regarding the discipline of God.
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
1 cor 3:15
In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
rev 5:12
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 thess 2:10
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
1 tim 1:15
1 cor 3:15
In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
rev 5:12
You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 thess 2:10
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
1 tim 1:15
A point made with a sense of humor, PeterJens. And you know me only from CC.
Thanks for further demonstrating the point
.
-JGIG
Thanks for further demonstrating the point
.-JGIG
going nowhere, maybe you should read more healthy stuff and stay off the religious
hype you follow...
I wonder if the lack of condemnation from Christ can be made up by condemnation
from heretics. Seems like they are quite happy to fill the role.
How many heretics does it take to change a light bulb? None, they just deny the
problem exists, they are happy walking in the dark, and never noticed the light
in the first place, those apostates invented the light, lol.
from heretics. Seems like they are quite happy to fill the role.
How many heretics does it take to change a light bulb? None, they just deny the
problem exists, they are happy walking in the dark, and never noticed the light
in the first place, those apostates invented the light, lol.
Not a problem. I don't mind discussing and, fyi, I do not deny the gospel of grace. Everything we have and everything we are is due to God's grace, the scope of which we will never fully understand in this lifetime.
The born again one is still a child of God. But when we fall short, or stumble in our walk (for whatever reason), we withdraw from Him, we turn away from Him to something else.
Here is a verse showing that if we walk in darkness, yet claim we have fellowship with Him, we lie:
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth
So, if we lie when we say we have fellowship with Him yet we walk in darkness, then we must not have fellowship with Him if/when we walk in darkness.
When we first become born again, at that instant, we have fellowship with the Father and the Son. However, we may stumble in our walk and we may sin from time to time. When we fall short, we confess to Father and He forgives.
No, if we do not agree with God, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord.
Here is what I posted:
The last sentence could have been written a little better to get the meaning across. I should have said "If we do not agree with God, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord".
Thanks for pointing that out.
I do not believe God beats His children. However, I do believe He chastens. But beating? No. And as you, I was subjected to what you described you went through as a child.
I do believe though that the Lord chastens His children; that He chastens as a loving Father in a manner that is best suited to the child being chastened; and the chastening of the Lord does result in the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised thereby.
The born again one is still a child of God. But when we fall short, or stumble in our walk (for whatever reason), we withdraw from Him, we turn away from Him to something else.
Here is a verse showing that if we walk in darkness, yet claim we have fellowship with Him, we lie:
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth
So, if we lie when we say we have fellowship with Him yet we walk in darkness, then we must not have fellowship with Him if/when we walk in darkness.
When we first become born again, at that instant, we have fellowship with the Father and the Son. However, we may stumble in our walk and we may sin from time to time. When we fall short, we confess to Father and He forgives.
No, if we do not agree with God, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord.
Here is what I posted:
The last sentence could have been written a little better to get the meaning across. I should have said "If we do not agree with God, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord".
Thanks for pointing that out.
I do not believe God beats His children. However, I do believe He chastens. But beating? No. And as you, I was subjected to what you described you went through as a child.
I do believe though that the Lord chastens His children; that He chastens as a loving Father in a manner that is best suited to the child being chastened; and the chastening of the Lord does result in the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised thereby.
G
Not a problem. I don't mind discussing and, fyi, I do not deny the gospel of grace. Everything we have and everything we are is due to God's grace, the scope of which we will never fully understand in this lifetime.
The born again one is still a child of God. But when we fall short, or stumble in our walk (for whatever reason), we withdraw from Him, we turn away from Him to something else.
Here is a verse showing that if we walk in darkness, yet claim we have fellowship with Him, we lie:
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth
So, if we lie when we say we have fellowship with Him yet we walk in darkness, then we must not have fellowship with Him if/when we walk in darkness.
When we first become born again, at that instant, we have fellowship with the Father and the Son. However, we may stumble in our walk and we may sin from time to time. When we fall short, we confess to Father and He forgives.
No, if we do not agree with God, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord.
Here is what I posted:
The last sentence could have been written a little better to get the meaning across. I should have said "If we do not agree with God, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord".
Thanks for pointing that out.
I do not believe God beats His children. However, I do believe He chastens. But beating? No. And as you, I was subjected to what you described you went through as a child.
I do believe though that the Lord chastens His children; that He chastens as a loving Father in a manner that is best suited to the child being chastened; and the chastening of the Lord does result in the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised thereby.
We are forever saved( to bad I have to keep saying this) but we will stumble. And God has a plan for the believer who stumbles........confess(name and site) it and we are once again filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit.
I really don't know how God deals with Grace believers that won't name and site their sins or human good to Him? And once again, I know that salvation is not lost, but fellowship is. And It may be that fellowship is lost for a LONG time, even if they think everything is back on track.
G
Not a problem. I don't mind discussing and, fyi, I do not deny the gospel of grace. Everything we have and everything we are is due to God's grace, the scope of which we will never fully understand in this lifetime.
The born again one is still a child of God. But when we fall short, or stumble in our walk (for whatever reason), we withdraw from Him, we turn away from Him to something else.
Here is a verse showing that if we walk in darkness, yet claim we have fellowship with Him, we lie:
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth
So, if we lie when we say we have fellowship with Him yet we walk in darkness, then we must not have fellowship with Him if/when we walk in darkness.
When we first become born again, at that instant, we have fellowship with the Father and the Son. However, we may stumble in our walk and we may sin from time to time. When we fall short, we confess to Father and He forgives.
No, if we do not agree with God, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord.
Here is what I posted:
The last sentence could have been written a little better to get the meaning across. I should have said "If we do not agree with God, we subject ourselves to the chastening of the Lord".
Thanks for pointing that out.
I do not believe God beats His children. However, I do believe He chastens. But beating? No. And as you, I was subjected to what you described you went through as a child.
I do believe though that the Lord chastens His children; that He chastens as a loving Father in a manner that is best suited to the child being chastened; and the chastening of the Lord does result in the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised thereby.
Lots and lots of stuff I agree with. But it gives the impression that we can just sit on our butts and nothing we do matters.
And once again, We can sit on our butts and do nothing and still be saved. But to advance in the Christian way of life and glorify Christ...............we must follow His plan. And His plan is to acknowledge sin and Human good to Him when we do it. If we don't we are not filled and walking in the Spirit.
I realise it is true I am actually using the wrong words.
I should really say many respond to the message but few are chosen.
Matt 22:14 For many are invited, but few are chosen.
And yes you are probably right the Lord chooses His own who are written in the lambs book
of life.
The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
Matt 22:8-12
Now it is possible to understand the banquet call, to respond to the glory God
has given us, yet to not honour the King.
Someone wrote it is possible to be saved and do nothing.
This parable emphasis, no, this is the same as being an unsaved sinner.
I also realise in one sense once you really understand reality and walk in it, you
will not walk away from Jesus, because you have no reason to, literally.
But this is not about a mystical "I am born again so saved forever" concept
this is about seeing what the Kingdom is and walking in it.
I should really say many respond to the message but few are chosen.
Matt 22:14 For many are invited, but few are chosen.
And yes you are probably right the Lord chooses His own who are written in the lambs book
of life.
The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
Matt 22:8-12
Now it is possible to understand the banquet call, to respond to the glory God
has given us, yet to not honour the King.
Someone wrote it is possible to be saved and do nothing.
This parable emphasis, no, this is the same as being an unsaved sinner.
I also realise in one sense once you really understand reality and walk in it, you
will not walk away from Jesus, because you have no reason to, literally.
But this is not about a mystical "I am born again so saved forever" concept
this is about seeing what the Kingdom is and walking in it.
Actually the point is that you imply to "know everyone else and their business" but when one gives you an earful of yourself you (who say we are supposed to know each other) (you who KNOWS everyone else) by your comment after being told WHO YOU ARE and how you are coming across here say:
Do I know you?
it is funny, really.
Do I know you?
it is funny, really.
mitnik5 - I get what you are saying in a way.
But you may not realise but we assume many things about others in every interaction.
I assume you can read and write, that you know english that you have a similar culture to
me and can understand where I am coming from. From your age you are not a child and
can hopefully handle adult perspectives.
I do not "know everyone else and their business". But you want to make fun of me and
characterise me in a bad way for reaching out and sharing.
And my friend, I did not get here without meeting the response you are giving many times.
But until you learn life is about being you, from the heart always, not hiding, just being true.
Now think a little. If I am openning a door and inviting real contact, I am saying
1. There is no real contact here
2. I do not know much other than the superficial response
3. I would like to know more, and share meaningfully
So unfortunately your response is just a justification of staying hidden and an
attempt to put off someone for daring to open a door.
The door is open, that is all I am saying, and Jesus calls us all to walk and share.
This is the nature of love. Jesus shared all He knew and all He was. He is our
example. And to be honest I am just talking here about simple contact.
But it demonstrates how closed down people are, because of past hurts and experiences
or even maybe shyness they have never got over.
My daughter was unbelievably shy as a 3yr old. She is now very gregarious and sharing,
but also a fire brand. So I know this road very well and I know the arguments.
Jesus dealt with it this way.
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."
Rev 3:20
Our fellowship is to be the same with each other as we have with Jesus.
Now this is the goal, and for some just being friendly is hard enough as
a first step.
But that is all I am talking about here, but it appears for some this is
a bridge too far.
God bless you, most sincerely, and may His love give you strength to open
that door.
But you may not realise but we assume many things about others in every interaction.
I assume you can read and write, that you know english that you have a similar culture to
me and can understand where I am coming from. From your age you are not a child and
can hopefully handle adult perspectives.
I do not "know everyone else and their business". But you want to make fun of me and
characterise me in a bad way for reaching out and sharing.
And my friend, I did not get here without meeting the response you are giving many times.
But until you learn life is about being you, from the heart always, not hiding, just being true.
Now think a little. If I am openning a door and inviting real contact, I am saying
1. There is no real contact here
2. I do not know much other than the superficial response
3. I would like to know more, and share meaningfully
So unfortunately your response is just a justification of staying hidden and an
attempt to put off someone for daring to open a door.
The door is open, that is all I am saying, and Jesus calls us all to walk and share.
This is the nature of love. Jesus shared all He knew and all He was. He is our
example. And to be honest I am just talking here about simple contact.
But it demonstrates how closed down people are, because of past hurts and experiences
or even maybe shyness they have never got over.
My daughter was unbelievably shy as a 3yr old. She is now very gregarious and sharing,
but also a fire brand. So I know this road very well and I know the arguments.
Jesus dealt with it this way.
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."
Rev 3:20
Our fellowship is to be the same with each other as we have with Jesus.
Now this is the goal, and for some just being friendly is hard enough as
a first step.
But that is all I am talking about here, but it appears for some this is
a bridge too far.
God bless you, most sincerely, and may His love give you strength to open
that door.
Wow. JGIG you have been a christian almost your whole life, and have the inside
track it appears.
I have seen the ammunition you use, and you powerfully put people in their place.
So I am a conundrum to you. I am not churched in the way you were, or even
thinking quite along the same lines.
The above statement about discipline sounds too absolute. God does bring judgement.
Judgement is the lawful conclusion of justice on behaviour.
I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
Isaiah 13:11
Now God loves us truly but He is also impartial and to be feared.
Can you accept in justice, the Lord can punish, even among His people, as well as reward?
It sounds like you were badly abused as a child, which is terrible, but abuse is the incorrect
use of justice and truth. But justice is brutal, and the lake of fire absolute.
I know how hard this is to face, but I also know how evil people can become who through
away peoples lives like an old news paper.
So it makes me wonder what is the source of your issues?
What is your disquiet?
Is it that love might judge you as failed, even though you are not?
That if you turned evil, how could love walk away? Is there no loyalty?
But love rejoices in the good, and brings life so why would you turn to evil
why would judgement come, why would you fail walking in the Spirit after Christ?
track it appears.
I have seen the ammunition you use, and you powerfully put people in their place.
So I am a conundrum to you. I am not churched in the way you were, or even
thinking quite along the same lines.
The above statement about discipline sounds too absolute. God does bring judgement.
Judgement is the lawful conclusion of justice on behaviour.
I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
Isaiah 13:11
Now God loves us truly but He is also impartial and to be feared.
Can you accept in justice, the Lord can punish, even among His people, as well as reward?
It sounds like you were badly abused as a child, which is terrible, but abuse is the incorrect
use of justice and truth. But justice is brutal, and the lake of fire absolute.
I know how hard this is to face, but I also know how evil people can become who through
away peoples lives like an old news paper.
So it makes me wonder what is the source of your issues?
What is your disquiet?
Is it that love might judge you as failed, even though you are not?
That if you turned evil, how could love walk away? Is there no loyalty?
But love rejoices in the good, and brings life so why would you turn to evil
why would judgement come, why would you fail walking in the Spirit after Christ?
You think I'm shy?
Come out and say it sir...you offer many, many, many suggestions of others hoping that you will hit it on the head so that they will start their new session with you as their all knowing therapist?
LOL...
Okay...keep throwing it out there...at some point, you'll hit it on the head and say of yourself...boy, am I good!
Peter?
You're funny!
Sir, you shared quite a lot about "me".
Now it's your turn...
Who knows themselves better than themselves?
Therefore, if you give a clear testimony of who you are, I will believe it...
But, I won't "share" with you what I imagine or think of you other than that you offer your many suggestions of others but don't share who you are...
Go ahead.
You first...
Come out and say it sir...you offer many, many, many suggestions of others hoping that you will hit it on the head so that they will start their new session with you as their all knowing therapist?
LOL...
Okay...keep throwing it out there...at some point, you'll hit it on the head and say of yourself...boy, am I good!
Peter?
You're funny!
Sir, you shared quite a lot about "me".
Now it's your turn...
Who knows themselves better than themselves?
Therefore, if you give a clear testimony of who you are, I will believe it...
But, I won't "share" with you what I imagine or think of you other than that you offer your many suggestions of others but don't share who you are...
Go ahead.
You first...
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