He that turns his ear from hearing the law...

[JGIG]

I think it is prety simple.

If you do not hear the law. You will not understand your sinfulness, and thus never be led to Christ.

If your not a child of God. God will never hear your prayer.

The only prayer God will hear is a prayer of repentance which leads to salvation..

no bro, the law can never bring someone to Christ, the good newwwwwwwwwwwss does!!!

You're both right.

The Law points out our sinfulness and need for Christ.

The goodness of God and His plan of salvation bring us to repentance.​

An interesting irony is that the self-righteous need to hear more Law to convince them of their need for the Good News, while the sinful (who know they're sinful) need to hear more about the goodness of God and His reconciliation lovingly offered to them in Christ.

Just one more of the many paradoxes in the Christian faith .

-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

forcing mosaic law down peoples throats huh? wow, so somehow he holds you hostage and makes you read these threads, that's amazing please do tell, how is this accomplished

This is a ridiculous statement, Hold me hostage? ha ha.

Do you have anything of value to say or do you just want to judge me?

You asked us to show you people who did this, I should you one person who did it. Now your going to attack when your question is answered?

Sad.. You should follow your own advice.

 

[Yonah]

This is a ridiculous statement, Hold me hostage? ha ha.

Do you have anything of value to say or do you just want to judge me?

You asked us to show you people who did this, I should you one person who did it. Now your going to attack when your question is answered?

Sad.. You should follow your own advice.

I don't judge you. don't flatter yourself, I don't even know you, your words is what I address, to bad your not willing to give account for them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't judge you. don't flatter yourself, I don't even know you, your words is what I address, to bad your not willing to give account for them.

what is wrong with my words?

I am stating the truth,, Some people want to force gentile churches to follow certain mosaic traditions, And judge them as not obeying God if they do not (the op is one of the many) and this is wrong and should be confronted.

We have biblical precedence with Paul calling peter out for offending gentiles by not eating meats forbidden by mosaic law.

All I did was state what I believed, you have attacked me since I stated what I believe, and now you want to judge me? wow man.

 

[oldethennew]

The OP has been doing this since he got here, Thats why he gets so much flak. Every thread he posts it seems to try to force mosaic law down people throats..

Just as you get sick of what you deem to be an impropriety, We also get sick of people trying to replace the grace of God with the law of moses.

=====================================================

thus far, we have NOT seen a quote where someone has personally said,
that (you have to EARN your SALVATION by WORKS)..

IF we LOVE Christ, we simply do our very best to KEEP His COMMANDMENTS,
which are written upon our HEARTS...when we fail, we beseech our
Saviour as He is our Intecessor, He does His job, we must do ours...
this is how we Love and Honor Him...

Salvation from the world is by GRACE -
but we are REWARDED according our WORKS...

MATT. 5:19.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven...

REV. 22:12.
And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

=====================================================

thus far, we have NOT seen a quote where someone has personally said,
that (you have to EARN your SALVATION by WORKS)..

IF we LOVE Christ, we simply do our very best to KEEP His COMMANDMENTS,
which are written upon our HEARTS...when we fail, we beseech our
Saviour as He is our Intecessor, He does His job, we must do ours...
this is how we Love and Honor Him...

Salvation from the world is by GRACE -
but we are REWARDED according our WORKS...

MATT. 5:19.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven...

REV. 22:12.
And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

take a look at all the threads started by the OP.. He has a habit of trying to force Mosaic law down everyones throat. then judging them if they do not follow it.

His focus needs to be redirected to serving others, Not what people should or should not do.

would you not agree?

 

[heavenly_bound]

and He never commands us to do anything we cannot do when empowered by His spirit to do so.

HE NEVER COMMANDED ME TO DO ANYTHING WHAT SO EVER! HE DID IT AND I GOT IT: I GET TO SERVICE HIM OUT OF LOVE AND REVERENCE AND NOT OUT OF COMMANDS. what will you say of your son who only does what you command? would you say you are in a father son -relationship with that son of yours? no! it is a master servant relationship.

 

[JGIG]

what verse in Gal 3? and secondly the law cannot in any way lead some to Christ. the law breaths condemnation, and fear. if you use the law to lead someone to Christ, that person will accept Christ out of fear of punishment or hell fire and not out of seeing the wondrous work of the savior !! That is why we have so many false conversions in the church today. They serve God not out of love but fear due to what they heard when the so called gospel was preached to them!! They see God as the vengeful God who punishes at the slightest offence!

Brief, the law doesn't portray our Heavenly Father as love; rather it portrays Him as a very strick and wicked master, who treats you base on your performances!!

Gal 3: 19-25 -
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


the purpose of the law is to prove to us that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. This should lead is to Christ, Because we realize, there is no other way, by which we have to be saved.

Those who teach law have yet to be trained by the law. Because they do not yet realize. the law does not save us, or make us righteous in Gods sight, It condemns us..

Again, you're both right, except for the Law portraying God as a strict and wicked master - it just contrasts His perfection with our inability - it shows us OUR wickedness and the just consequences for sin - hence our need for Christ.

As Galatians 3 points out, the Law is not against the promises of God, but it does not give life, either. The Law defines righteousness, but righteousness cannot be attained through nor given by the Law - THEREFORE the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith - and after that - we are no longer under a tutor (under the Law).

If someone comes to Christ based only on the fact of their sinfulness and given Law as a spiritual diet and has not been introduced to the goodness and grace of God, they will never grow in Him, because the Law does condemn - because no one but Christ could ever measure up. Grace, however, teaches us - without condemnation, as sons, not as servants \o/!

The Law does still have a purpose in this age of Grace - and the Law is holy, just, and good. That said, those who are in Christ are dead to the Law and have no relationship with it whatsoever.

The Law is good if it is used PROPERLY (see 1 Tim. 1:8).

Pointing out unbelievers' sin is a proper use of the Law; pointing believers OR unbelievers to Law-keeping for righteousness is an IMproper use of the Law.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

In Psalms, I believe most of the time, when the word "law" is used, It is used in the sense of Gods word Not mosaic law.

It would be the same today as if we said we love Gods word, We love his scripture. His letter written to us..

in the KJV the word law used in the psalms is the Hebrew word Torah, it actually means teaching and instruction, the word law was always a bad and incomplete translation....

Actually, if you look at the Hebrew (simple dictionary definitions, I'm no scholar ), many times the Psalms ARE referring to Torah Law, and that is appropriate, as that was the Law (Covenant) in place at the time.

We can take all of those Psalms, including Psalm 119, and view them through the Work of Christ and His New Covenant.

What does Torah actually mean? Law-keepers will be quick to tell us that it is not 'Law', but 'instructions'. Well, in reality, it's not either Law or instructions, but both - instructions that carry penalties for failure to comply which equals Law.

So what is God's Torah (instructions or Law) in the New Covenant?

Believe in Christ and love one another. (John 6:28-29, 1 Jn. 3:23-24)

That's it.

Believe and live (death penalty removed for sin) and be blessed (love = blessings, for others and for us).

It's so brilliantly simple \o/!

NOW go back and read through the Psalms wearing the lens of the Work of Christ and His New Covenant - it all still works (as God knew it would ).

And look through Psalm 119 specifically, using a Hebrew dictionary like Blue Letter Bible provides, and you'll begin to see that 'word' can mean Scripture, Law, utterance, or CHRIST from this side of the Cross. For instance, in vs. 25, the Hebrew word for 'word' in that verse is 'dabar', which is roughly the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek, 'logos' or 'rhema':

The word dabar means "word" or "talk" in Hebrew.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] Dabar occurs in various contexts in the Hebrew Bible.
In the Hebrew Bible, dabar is sometimes used in reference to the "Divine Word", and in an active sense as a "word event", or prophetic words.[SUP][3]
[/SUP]
In Christianity, the Old Testament concept of "word event" represented by dabar carries over to the New Testament where revelation can be seen asevents explained by words.[SUP][4][/SUP] Hence in the New Testament the word dabar continues to be more than a mere sound, or a doctrine, but refers to people and actions, reaching its climax in the Incarnation of Jesus.[SUP][5]
[/SUP]
The Septuagint, the oldest translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek uses the terms Rhema and Logos as equivalents and uses both for dabar.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7] (source)[/SUP]​

For example, Psalm 119:25 says,

25 I am laid low in the dust;
preserve my life according to your word [dabar].​

Who preserves our life? Christ! Everything in God's Word ultimately points to Christ, Who is LIFE \o/!

I keep wondering why these guys keep pointing to Law, which is the ministry of death? (see 2 Cor. 3)

Makes me think of this passage:

39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (from Jn. 5)​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

theres the accusation again.... please lady lynn do explain where anyone on this thread is trying to establish their own righteousness apart from the work our Savor did on the cross, ive seen this accusation based on what they THINK is being said or implied, and its siply not true.

Come on, Yohah, here's how it goes, does it not?

Obey the Law = righteousness
Disobey the Law = sin, because sin is transgression of the Law

That IS the Law keepers' template, is it not?

-JGIG

 

[Gr8grace]

theres the accusation again.... please lady lynn do explain where anyone on this thread is trying to establish their own righteousness apart from the work our Savor did on the cross, ive seen this accusation based on what they THINK is being said or implied, and its siply not true.

So what is he saying then?

What happens to me, a saved person, and I am not devoted to the law?

 

[Yonah]

what is wrong with my words?

I am stating the truth,, Some people want to force gentile churches to follow certain mosaic traditions, And judge them as not obeying God if they do not (the op is one of the many) and this is wrong and should be confronted.

We have biblical precedence with Paul calling peter out for offending gentiles by not eating meats forbidden by mosaic law.

All I did was state what I believed, you have attacked me since I stated what I believe, and now you want to judge me? wow man.

lets see.... shoving the mosaic law down peoples throats.... so I challenged you to post the statement that shows this, but instead you play the victim.... why? you mean you cannot even stand by your own words??? hmmm

 

[Yonah]

So what is he saying then?

What happens to me, a saved person, and I am not devoted to the law?

see how things are said that was never posted? nobody ever said devoted to the law but you just now, I ma devoted to my Savior I don't know about you or others

 

[ladylynn]

theres the accusation again.... please lady lynn do explain where anyone on this thread is trying to establish their own righteousness apart from the work our Savor did on the cross, ive seen this accusation based on what they THINK is being said or implied, and its siply not true.

Hi Yonah., I'm not making accusation. My explanation is post #77. All of what we do or have or know is based on Jesus apart from anything we do. It's so important for the unsaved person to know salvation is in Christ alone., but just as important for the believer who may have been saved over 20yrs and still doesn't know the extent of their salvation being in the power of faith in the finished work of Christ. He makes us worthy and daily teaches us how to follow Him (not the law).

A believer can actually know Christ but not know how to follow Him. Actually we Christians are really good at religion too. Why else did Paul say to the other Christians that he marveled how they moved away so soon from the grace of God to another Gospel? Humans always go back to what they are familiar with and comfortable with. Stepping out even if it is for a good thing is not always easy for us. We need the power of Christ in the Holy Spirit to do this.

Simply put if we as Christians are focusing on the law and it's goodness and believing that this is pleasing to God, we are sorely mistaken. We need to CROSS OVER and know we are new covenant believers now. Jesus has ushered in the new covenant when He went to the cross. Everything changed.

The reason so many believers don't have the strength and power to be like Jesus is we are not following Him., we are following the law 'for Him' thinking (erroneously) this is a pleasing and good thing to God. Sure., our motives may seem correct but they are wrong motives involving a righteousness apart from Jesus' "it is finished". He didn't save us so we could follow the law. NO.

Why is it that so many Christians for years can look good on the outside yet are struggling on the inside? They have good families., They go to church, they teach Sunday school., they become pastors and pastors wives. They are trustees and deacons and devoted church workers.

But their insides are not changed and they don't know why!!. They can't hold their temper., or love their wives or husbands more then themselves. They can't love the unlovely. Or overcome sin in their personal lives that no one knows about. Why is it so many believers are divorced these days? Why are there so many carnal Christians?

It's because we are following the law and not Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Following Jesus and beholding Jesus is something that we are instructed to keep doing and learning about and keep walking in as we consistently learn about Him. It's a process while we are here on earth. And we don't ever "arrive" we are always in need of following close because like sheep we are easily led astray if we are not continually mindful of the grace He has provided.

The adversary is always hanging around executing darts our way when we are trusting in our own power. That is why so many Christians are failing., we get shot down by those firey darts every day in our weaknesses. We are not leaning on the grace He has given., we are leaning on our power and we are getting shot down.

That's why Jesus told us we can do nothing apart from Him. Abiding is staying close to Him. It's not working the law. It's staying close to the Shepherd who will keep leading us as we follow. The sheep who goes off on their own believing they are good to go is in for a fall.

I'm sort of constantly amazed at how really right and good it is when He takes the burdens. It is really true His burden is light. When He does it., it gets done. The power comes when we allow Him to do our lives. We follow Him close.

Even if right now we don't have the answers to our questions He says to not lean on our own understanding but to acknowledge Him in all our ways and then He WILL direct our paths. Even today again I'm challenged again to wait on Him to show me which way to go in a certain situation.

While I'm waiting He says I can be confident in knowing even now is the learning happening. It's most important that I work to rest right now. I don't need to rush and find an answer. I'm supposed to wait. I can do it in and by the obedience of faith.

This is new for me as an older Christian woman. I'm on new turf. But I've observed Him work it out already many times since actually leaving life issues in His hands so I know He will do it. He is faithful. He will show me where to get on the right path and then begin walking it. We are always in motion. It's a real walk with Jesus in the Holy Spirit. We are not going it alone.

We can't have this kind of faith walk if we are trying to do it by the law. I don't even think of the law anymore. Jesus is better than the law and His ways clean out the cobwebs of my mind teaching the inner man instead. He doesn't try to resurrect the flesh to be good. What I see Him doing is feeding the new man. It's paths we have not taken yet. And the law won't lead us there. Obedience of faith will.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Just as you get sick of what you deem to be an impropriety, We also get sick of people trying to replace the grace of God with the law of moses.

My understanding about grace is that we had grace from the beginning. Nobody want to replace grace with the law of Moses (or maybe I should say I don't ) but we cannot disregard an important part of the Bible.

The Torah was given to us to study and understand because we are getting to learn more about God's characteristics. God is not a free for all God and grace was not only given to believers after Jesus died on the cross. We always had grace with the Father.

 

[PeterJens]

If you truly understood the Law, you would understood that NO man can keep the Law.

This is an interesting statement. God is saying no man outside those who have
communion with Him can keep the law.

Those who emphasis the statement above above everything else deny even in communion
His people follow Jesus truly. And this is the point, they are in pure denial of Jesus's
victory on the cross. If Christ cannot transform us to follow Him in righteousness what is
the point?

 

[PeterJens]

take a look at all the threads started by the OP.. He has a habit of trying to force Mosaic law down everyones throat. then judging them if they do not follow it.

This is an odd way of describing a discussion of scripture, "to force Mosaic law down everyones throat"

It is a valid question to ask the role of the law in a believers life, and why there was a change
from Israel in the old covenant, to Jesus and the Kingdom in the new.

The real reason why this particular slander is taken is because these HG followers believe any hint
of Gods law is evil and of satan. All their preaching and teaching is full of this poison, it is in every
thought and breath they take. It is like an ex-legalist hyper alergic reaction to anything that
reminds them of their super legalistic view of everything of God. It is the biggest con trick of all
to flip legalists into libertarians, believing they now have the truth and condemning everyone who
is close to God and reality, while believing they have really changed and all they had before was
evil.

If you have ever met ex-smokers who just get a wiff of smoke sends them into coughing fits, and
the most agressive description against smokers then follows, this is their spirit.

You know how serious the discussion is about the law, because even among the apostles and for
Paul it was never fully resolved.

 

[psalm6819]

you have no clue what I do or do not understand... when you lawless ones learn to stop rebelling against the clear and Holy commands our Creator gave us then maybe you will learn to stop accusing others of not understanding what you apparently do not.

strong words, brother,

a soft answer turns away wrath

 

[KohenMatt]

My thoughts are that the King of the universe would NEVER command men to do a thing that could not be done... this lie that none can obey him is from satan himself and many have chosen for various reasons to believe it, even though his word clearly teaches that not only can we obey , His spirit empowers us to do so.

God Himself said the Law isn't that difficult to keep.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14
“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it."

 

[Yonah]

Ladylynn I want you to know I respect you as a sister in the Messaih as I do many others here, I realize what I believe is different then many here but please understand I serve and love our Savior as many others here do... and ask your forgiveness if ive said anything that has offended you, I hope never to misrepresent my Savior but I do from time to time.