He that turns his ear from hearing the law...

[LaurenTM]

I know exactly how I'm saved, and it has nothing to do with the Law.

So when your post talked about the Law in context of salvation, I simply pointed out that I have never equated the Law with salvation.

well that's good

now how do you keep your salvation?

do you think you need to keep it?

 

[KohenMatt]

well that's good

now how do you keep your salvation?

do you think you need to keep it?

My salvation is in Christ alone. No amount of obedience or disobedience affects that, so I can't "keep it" myself. That's why there's grace and mercy.

 

[LaurenTM]

My salvation is in Christ alone. No amount of obedience or disobedience affects that, so I can't "keep it" myself. That's why there's grace and mercy.

you are not being factually correct here concerning what you believe

you consider yourself 'more of a Hebrew Roots' guy...according to this post:

Depending on the type of Jewish person you talk to, yes.
And no Judaism isn't the same as Christianity. Like Dan said, I'm more of a Hebrew Roots guy, and wanted to post each of the 613 individual laws.​

post 156 from your 'all 613 laws' thread


glad we finally got to the bottom of your reason for posting in this thread on law

and in your own words too

thanks


​

 

[JGIG]

Did God ever say He gave the Law in a chiding way? Or is that a made up motivation? Where is the Scripture that supports this motivation?

Was Israel really being arrogant when they said they would do whatever God would eventually tell them to do? Don't we do that when we enter into a saving relationship with Jesus; that we will always follow Him, no matter what He tells us to do?



Any Old Testament Scriptures to support these purposes?




Where did God Israel to celebrate the feasts?

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? (from Gal. 4)​

-JGIG

 

[KohenMatt]

you are not being factually correct here concerning what you believe

How would like me to be "factually correct" concerning what I believe? What does that look like to you?

you consider yourself 'more of a Hebrew Roots' guy...according to this post:

post 156 from your 'all 613 laws' thread


glad we finally got to the bottom of your reason for posting in this thread on law

and in your own words too

thanks


​

The reason I started that thread (Post #1....

"I created a similar thread 2 years ago because at the time, there were a lot of references to the "Law" on this forum, but very few quotes of the specific Laws themselves. I think we're at a similar place with a bunch of new faces on the forum. In order to weed out a lot of the commentary from that time, I'm re-posting the Laws themselves and not "bumping up" the entire thread. I will keep my comments to a minimum.

These Laws are usually referred to as a whole unit and judged or analyzed as such. These laws are usually deemed to be burdensome and inapplicable to Christians today. However, when these commands are looked at individually and on their own merit, they can provide great insight and application for Christians today. While some of them are in fact not physically applicable for various reasons, I believe ALL of them are applicable physically and/or spiritually. This thread is primarily meant to simply list the commands themselves.

So for the sake of information and clarity, I'll be posting the actual commands and verses of all 6113 laws in groups of their relevant sections (not all at once.) I'm using the grouping and ordering as compiled by the Jewish scholar Maimonides, aka Rambam."

 

[JGIG]

The purpose of the law was to enable people to walk righteously before God,
and find forgiveness for sins through sacrifice.

The sacrificial system was put in place because God knew we could not keep the Law.

The law literally ran a whole nation, Israel.

The Hebrew nation/Israel got along just fine under the Covenant of Grace made with Abraham. Even in slavery God preserved their identity.

And the above statement is a lie. Paul says he was blameless according to the law.
The rich young man kept the law who came to Christ.

Grace777x70 replied to this issue beautifully - the rich young ruler violated the very first commandment, putting his wealth before God, and Paul, though outwardly blameless according to the Law, admitted that the Law stirred up covetous thoughts of every kind in him. And according to Christ, even thinking about sinning is as sin itself (see Mt. 5).

So blameless and sinless are two different things.

Blamelessness according to the Law does not equal eternal life;
The wages of sin is death.

So the Law could not provide righteousness, only Christ can do that, and it's a gift, it's not earned or maintained or lost by our behavior.

But keeping the law is not enough to know God.
And that is the whole point.

No, that's not the whole point.

The Gospel is not so much about sin as it is about LIFE.

Humans don't come into this world in a neutral state, and if we obey the Law we're okay, and if we don't we're not.

Humans come into this world spiritually DEAD. Condemned ALREADY in Adam.

That's what John 3 and Romans 3-5-8 are all about - Jesus did not come to condemn (because that is the state of every human before they receive Him - spiritually dead), but to save (give LIFE)!

How did He do that?

By providing forgiveness for sins (cleansing), so that He could gift us His Righteousness (apart from the Law, received by faith) and the LIFE of Christ!

Cleansing makes the way for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who believe in Christ - WE BECOME HIS TEMPLE - undefiled by sin. Getting rid of sin is not the final goal - providing LIFE is the final goal - and forgiveness/cleansing is the means to that end, not us not sinning. And this will be misunderstood and construed to say that I think sinning is okay. NO. Sinning is not okay - it's dumb and destructive to us and to those around us. If you're sinning, stop it! That said, your salvation, your relationship with God in Christ is NOT dependent on your not sinning! It's dependent on Christ's Life IN YOU.

But if you feel the law is just an impossible mark

Yes, as proven by Scripture, no one is righteous, no not one.

and you excuse sin as something impossible to deal with

No, sin is dumb and destructive, to us and to those around us. If you're sinning, stop it. (repeated over and over)

In Christ, we are free from the power of sin because we are dead to the Law, which is the power of sin (see Romans 6,7 and 1 Cor. 15:56).

You want sin to have power in your life? Walk in the Law, joined to it.

You want to be free from the power of sin? Walk in Christ, joined to Him.

you end up with hyper-grace heresy.

Actually, you end up with the Gospel. Mis-label it any way you want.

-JGIG

 

[KohenMatt]

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? (from Gal. 4)​

-JGIG

Do you where and why God originally told Israel He gave them the Law for?

And still, where did God tell Israel to celebrate the Feasts?

 

[disciplemike]

Lots of comments here, just take a look.
Some say they don't serve the God of that Old Book.

"No law for me", that is their banner.
Grace alone, so mind your manners.

Oh what a shock to find, when we hear that trumpet blast,
the God of the First Covenant is the God of the Last.

Keep the comments coming. We are reading.

 

[LaurenTM]

How would like me to be "factually correct" concerning what I believe? What does that look like to you?



The reason I started that thread (Post #1....

"I created a similar thread 2 years ago because at the time, there were a lot of references to the "Law" on this forum, but very few quotes of the specific Laws themselves. I think we're at a similar place with a bunch of new faces on the forum. In order to weed out a lot of the commentary from that time, I'm re-posting the Laws themselves and not "bumping up" the entire thread. I will keep my comments to a minimum.

These Laws are usually referred to as a whole unit and judged or analyzed as such. These laws are usually deemed to be burdensome and inapplicable to Christians today. However, when these commands are looked at individually and on their own merit, they can provide great insight and application for Christians today. While some of them are in fact not physically applicable for various reasons, I believe ALL of them are applicable physically and/or spiritually. This thread is primarily meant to simply list the commands themselves.

So for the sake of information and clarity, I'll be posting the actual commands and verses of all 6113 laws in groups of their relevant sections (not all at once.) I'm using the grouping and ordering as compiled by the Jewish scholar Maimonides, aka Rambam."

you stated you are a Hebrew Roots kind of guy

we all have Bibles...the problem with YOU roots folks, is that you cannot seem to get yourselves out of the OT

when you actually DO quote the NT, is YOUR understanding of it and if not that, then you hedge around admitting what it does in fact say

pretty much like this post from you concerning the book of Hebrews:

There is no specific Scripture that says who Hebrews is talking to. But be careful that you carry that same standard to every book of the Bible, that it has to specifically mention who it is talking to in order to understand it.

But here is a helpful question regarding my point.

Does Paul or Jesus ever advocate keeping the Law for any reason?

Post 187 from your 613 laws thread

a poster asks you a direct question and you deflect from answering directly

just the same as you are doing in this thread

I really do not like having a conversation with someone who is basically not being up front about what they actually believe

we don't need to know all the laws for salvation...or be told by a Hebrew Roots kind of guy that we do

 

[LaurenTM]

Lots of comments here, just take a look.
Some say they don't serve the God of that Old Book.

"No law for me", that is their banner.
Grace alone, so mind your manners.

Oh what a shock to find, when we hear that trumpet blast,
the God of the First Covenant is the God of the Last.

Keep the comments coming. We are reading.

 

[Chester]

you are not being factually correct here concerning what you believe

you consider yourself 'more of a Hebrew Roots' guy...according to this post:

post 156 from your 'all 613 laws' thread


glad we finally got to the bottom of your reason for posting in this thread on law

and in your own words too

thanks


​

Lauren, Lauren, Relax, relax, . . .
All your fussing, arguments, and so on will not change your rival's opinions!

Some of us out here are getting quite amused at your antics . . .

But its OK! I don't agree with many people here either, but if they believe in Jesus Christ, I accept them as brothers and see what I can learn. - And, if I have any chance - I will try to get them to see it my way . . . !!!!!!

 

[KohenMatt]

you stated you are a Hebrew Roots kind of guy

we all have Bibles...the problem with YOU roots folks, is that you cannot seem to get yourselves out of the OT

when you actually DO quote the NT, is YOUR understanding of it and if not that, then you hedge around admitting what it does in fact say

pretty much like this post from you concerning the book of Hebrews:

Post 187 from your 613 laws thread

a poster asks you a direct question and you deflect from answering directly

just the same as you are doing in this thread

I really do not like having a conversation with someone who is basically not being up front about what they actually believe

we don't need to know all the laws for salvation...or be told by a Hebrew Roots kind of guy that we do

OK, so apparently I'm missing what you're specifically asking. My apologies.

So for the benefit of my apparently confused mind, would you mind clarifying what you're exactly asking?

Thanks so much.

 

[Chester]

LOOK OUT! WE HAVE AN INTERNET TOUGH GUY - OR IS IT A GAL? I'm confused now!?????

 

[LaurenTM]

Lauren, Lauren, Relax, relax, . . .
All your fussing, arguments, and so on will not change your rival's opinions!

Some of us out here are getting quite amused at your antics . . .

But its OK! I don't agree with many people here either, but if they believe in Jesus Christ, I accept them as brothers and see what I can learn. - And, if I have any chance - I will try to get them to see it my way . . . !!!!!!

have the day off from work then?

 

[Grace777x70]

Lots of comments here, just take a look.
Some say they don't serve the God of that Old Book.

"No law for me", that is their banner.
Grace alone, so mind your manners.

Oh what a shock to find, when we hear that trumpet blast,
the God of the First Covenant is the God of the Last.

Keep the comments coming. We are reading.

Wait untilthe shock comes and we all find out that the law is NOT of faith. Wait until we find out that the righteous shall live by faith ( that leaves the Law of Moses out ) Wait until we find out that the Law of Moses is now obsolete and that Christ has fulfilled the Law.

Wait until we find out that God "after" He has spoken to the fathers in many ways and portions has in these last days spoken to us by His Son". Hebrews 1:1-3

Wait until we find out that we have a new Covenant built upon better promises and it has new commandments which are outlined clearly in 1 John 3:23.

Wait until we find out that what the "laws" arein the New Covenant which are these.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

2)The law of love

3) The law of faith

4) The law of liberty

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ in us.

We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the beggarly elements that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.

Going back to live by the law of Moses instead of the life of Christ on the inside of us - is like getting married and instead of spending time with your wife - you are in another room reading her old letters that she sent to you.

The real substance is here now. Wait until the shock comes that the New Covenant is all to do with Christ and His finished work and NOT the Law of Moses . Wait until we find that out!

 

[LaurenTM]

OK, so apparently I'm missing what you're specifically asking. My apologies.

So for the benefit of my apparently confused mind, would you mind clarifying what you're exactly asking?

Thanks so much.

hmmmm

I've never really been a fan of crossword puzzles and your style of posting is reminding me of one at this point

I'm sure you are not all confused and neither am I

 

[JGIG]

hmmmm

I've never really been a fan of crossword puzzles and your style of posting is reminding me of one at this point

I'm sure you are not all confused and neither am I

I believe the end-game is to 'catch' us in some error and to 'ensnare' us back under the Law:

Psalm 35:7
For without cause they hid their net for me; Without cause they dug a pit for my soul.

Psalm 119:85
The arrogant have dug pits for me, Men who are not in accord with Your law.

Psalm 119:110
The wicked have laid a snare for me, Yet I have not gone astray from Your precepts.

Psalm 140:5
The proud have hidden a trap for me, and cords; They have spread a net by the wayside; They have set snares for me. Selah.

Psalm 141:9
Keep me from the jaws of the trap which they have set for me, And from the snares of those who do iniquity.

Psalm 142:3
When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, You knew my path In the way where I walk They have hidden a trap for me.

Jeremiah 5:26
'For wicked men are found among My people, They watch like fowlers lying in wait; They set a trap, They catch men.

Jeremiah 18:22
May an outcry be heard from their houses, When You suddenly bring raiders upon them; For they have dug a pit to capture me And hidden snares for my feet.

​

When they say they keep the Law, and are asked about how they do it, they come back with more questions, not willing to answer the questions put to them. The attempt is to lead us to their way of thinking incrementally, without them coming out with plain, contextual Scripture to back up what they're saying.


-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Do you where and why God originally told Israel He gave them the Law for?

And still, where did God tell Israel to celebrate the Feasts?

So by your responses, I take it you're not going to answer the question.

You're one of the ones teaching the Law here, so teach!

Or not.

Your choice.

7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (from 1 Tim. 1)​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70
The rich young ruler broke the very first commandment. " You shall have no other gods before Me." He had money as his god as Jesus proved.​

Only a real legalist would use this argument above.

Huh. According to Scripture, it was Jesus using the Law to point out the rich young rulers sin (which the young man didn't see because of his self-righteousness).

So you're calling Jesus a real legalist.

Interesting.

Let me go through the points step by step.
The Lord is standing before you. The one who gives forgiveness of sins and eternal life
but more is God, with whom friendship and intimacy is possible.

Yet wealth is your security, bails you out when things get tough.
And the source of your worship and praise is asking you to follow.
If you truly knew who and what God is, you would dump it all and follow.

The law is just a set of rules, dry, marks in the sand. But a living relationship is
what it is all about. Obviously the rich young man did not recognise Christ and saw
everything as a series of barriers to cross rather than the joy of all he desired was
before him.

No, PeterJens, the rich young ruler saw the Law as something he had kept from childhood. He was expecting Jesus to tell him, "Well done!" When Christ showed him where he lacked, he went away discouraged. Read the account again.

This is the whole point, not he actually was a sinner because money was his god.
Money was his security, but that does not make it his god. If money as a security
is making money a god, then everything in society is wrong, and we should not own
anything. But I know that is not the ethic people are suggesting here.

So Jesus was lying to the rich young ruler?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I knew you would make that claim, if the scripture says blameless but doesn't mean it in the context of that verse can you please show me elsewhere that same Koine greek word is used in a different context?

frankly peoples opinions and suppositions are not valid (whether your or mine) but rather the proper study of scripture as its written not as it is interpreted by ones own theology on what it needs to say.

Blameless according to the Law does not mean sinless.

The Law can only deal with the flesh, not the heart.

The Law could not provide righteousness, that's why God said that now a righteousness APART from the Law, has been made known - a gift - through faith - in Christ.

In this New Covenant in Christ we are cleansed from sin and given the gift of God's righteousness in Christ, then given the Life of Christ and sealed unto the day of redemption by His Holy Spirit.

It's all in Romans 3-8 and Ephesians 1 .

-JGIG