Jesus loves us

[eternally-gratefull]

You just keep parroting this remark over and over. That I believe in "traditions," not the Bible. Did you learn this little phrase to answer legitmate and well thought out criticisms of HG, in JP training school? I know cults like to train their members and stock phrases like this are part and parcel of the training. In particular, you, Grace777 have so many stock phrases, verses pulled out of context, that it is so obvious you are completely given over to the propagation and dissemination of "another gospel." Talk about church traditions!! I don't care how new this hypergrace heresy is, it has a solid foundation of unbiblical traditions! Yep, hypergrace people are the ones caught in "church traditions."

In fact, steady, consistent and persistent study of the Bible is what finally led to the break through of realizing that a cult had not only taken over the forum, but was influencing people with their constant lies and saying that only "they" have the truth. The hypergrace truth. The lie that the Bible has totally been misinterpreted for 500 years, and the definitions are all wrong, because Joseph Prince says so!

And so, if all of those who believe the Bible, rather than JP stand against the just BAD theology of this cult, we are condemned, judged and cast out. Of course, we cannot lose our salvation because hypergrace people believe in eternal security, but we are definitely not in the "in" crowd, and their new definitions for everything that the gospel and the Bible stand for. (Which seriously has made me reexamine the whole concept of eternal security in light of the Bible)

And that, is the definition of a cult. To say nothing of bait and switch. Not addressing what I wrote, except for the same parroted phrases over and over and over and over!

Like "church traditions!" No, the church traditions are in fact the hypergrace crowd, who in such a short time have formed rigid and untenable doctrines, based on the false writings of JP. And if Michael Brown actually coined the phrase "hypergrace" certainly the HG crowd, at least at CC, has totally embraced the term, and pounded it here. Which is where I first heard it, and continue to hear it over and over and over and over.

As for why I continue to stand against this heresy, because I, with all my Bible background got sucked into this heresy for quite a while. I did not correctly divide the word of God, with regards to hypergrace, particularly the twisted new definitions of sin, repentance and grace. Thank goodness for the Holy Spirit, who just twigged my mind one day, reading these threads, and asked me what the truth was as HE had revealed it to me, both in my spirit and in the Word of God.

Yep, the Spirit led me. And then I realized, if I, a Bible scholar could fall for this heresy, what about people who have never read the Bible (like most Christians, sadly!)? What about new Christians coming here and reading this without a Biblical understanding and falling for this terrible lie? It upset me and motivated me to take an unpopular stand for the gospel of Jesus Christ. The real gospel, that is!

The church has been rife with heresy since Paul addressed heretics in Galatians.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:6-9

Yes, the gospel has been distorted and twisted many times. And it can happen rapidly, as the take over of this forum by hypergrace believers proves. Not church tradition but the truth of the Holy Spirit working in my heart and life, and my knowledge of Bible interpretation (Greek and Hebrew help, but dividing the word is even more important!), that led me to stand against this cult, it's heresies, and the lies that are being told here.

Do you honestly think I would reverse my position on this topic and get battered by unthinking people every single thread, if the Holy Spirit had not absolutely and utterly spoken to me? I am not that strong in myself. As for church traditions, as a former rebel, God has used that streak of discontent and disbelief to lead me to question everything! The matter is not settled. The church traditions that hypergrace have started are the real problem here.

And so many have been led astray by this cult in CC. Just so sad!

What may I ask is their error?

In the gospel. Not in other stuff. In the gospel. Just because you and I may disagree with other aspects of what they believe does not mean we do not have the same gospel.

I hear attack after attack. But I see no meat. Because when it comes to people attacking the gospel of HG, It is baseless attack usually heard from a person who is attacking them, And not really investigated.

I have say here for months now and seen some people get attacked. Yet when they are asked serious questions. (according to the gospel) they seem to always view the biblical way.

What happened to you Angela.. You was one I deeply trusted, and looked to for spiritual insite. But lately. I can not say this as it seems you have bought into the propaganda against the gospel of grace.

 

[Grace777x70]

You just keep parroting this remark over and over. That I believe in "traditions," not the Bible. Did you learn this little phrase to answer legitmate and well thought out criticisms of HG, in JP training school? I know cults like to train their members and stock phrases like this are part and parcel of the training. In particular, you, Grace777 have so many stock phrases, verses pulled out of context, that it is so obvious you are completely given over to the propagation and dissemination of "another gospel." Talk about church traditions!! I don't care how new this hypergrace heresy is, it has a solid foundation of unbiblical traditions! Yep, hypergrace people are the ones caught in "church traditions."

In fact, steady, consistent and persistent study of the Bible is what finally led to the break through of realizing that a cult had not only taken over the forum, but was influencing people with their constant lies and saying that only "they" have the truth. The hypergrace truth. The lie that the Bible has totally been misinterpreted for 500 years, and the definitions are all wrong, because Joseph Prince says so!

And so, if all of those who believe the Bible, rather than JP stand against the just BAD theology of this cult, we are condemned, judged and cast out. Of course, we cannot lose our salvation because hypergrace people believe in eternal security, but we are definitely not in the "in" crowd, and their new definitions for everything that the gospel and the Bible stand for. (Which seriously has made me reexamine the whole concept of eternal security in light of the Bible)

And that, is the definition of a cult. To say nothing of bait and switch. Not addressing what I wrote, except for the same parroted phrases over and over and over and over!

Like "church traditions!" No, the church traditions are in fact the hypergrace crowd, who in such a short time have formed rigid and untenable doctrines, based on the false writings of JP. And if Michael Brown actually coined the phrase "hypergrace" certainly the HG crowd, at least at CC, has totally embraced the term, and pounded it here. Which is where I first heard it, and continue to hear it over and over and over and over.

As for why I continue to stand against this heresy, because I, with all my Bible background got sucked into this heresy for quite a while. I did not correctly divide the word of God, with regards to hypergrace, particularly the twisted new definitions of sin, repentance and grace. Thank goodness for the Holy Spirit, who just twigged my mind one day, reading these threads, and asked me what the truth was as HE had revealed it to me, both in my spirit and in the Word of God.

Yep, the Spirit led me. And then I realized, if I, a Bible scholar could fall for this heresy, what about people who have never read the Bible (like most Christians, sadly!)? What about new Christians coming here and reading this without a Biblical understanding and falling for this terrible lie? It upset me and motivated me to take an unpopular stand for the gospel of Jesus Christ. The real gospel, that is!

The church has been rife with heresy since Paul addressed heretics in Galatians.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:6-9

Yes, the gospel has been distorted and twisted many times. And it can happen rapidly, as the take over of this forum by hypergrace believers proves. Not church tradition but the truth of the Holy Spirit working in my heart and life, and my knowledge of Bible interpretation (Greek and Hebrew help, but dividing the word is even more important!), that led me to stand against this cult, it's heresies, and the lies that are being told here.

Do you honestly think I would reverse my position on this topic and get battered by unthinking people every single thread, if the Holy Spirit had not absolutely and utterly spoken to me? I am not that strong in myself. As for church traditions, as a former rebel, God has used that streak of discontent and disbelief to lead me to question everything! The matter is not settled. The church traditions that hypergrace have started are the real problem here.

And so many have been led astray by this cult in CC. Just so sad!

Okie dokie! I'm not going to argue with you Angela...I could call what you believe a cult too because it may be different in a few things then what others believe but I won't. - you are entitled to believe what ever you want. Your opinion has just as much value as everyone else in the body of Christ.

Watch out for Hebrews 12:15.....

Bless you and I always speak your name before our Father when I think of you and ask that you and your family be blessed and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Have a great weekend!...

 

[eph610]

Where in the Bible do we see Jesus or anyone else telling us outright that we should seek out and then destroy the character of those WE perceive to be a false prophet, teaching false doctrine?

I see Jesus warning us about them and how to identify them and not listen to them, the same for Paul and even John, but where do we see that we are taught to make slanderous accusations against them and all in the name of GEE....ZUS!?!?!? Titus 3 will not give you defense here....


There are plenty of movements/denominations, etc that I disagree with....For the record one of the ones that I really have to keep my flesh in check with is the Word of Faith movement....that said, it does me know good to accuse them of anything....Acts 5 and Matthew 13 keep me in check on those folks....

If Jesus told us that the wheat and the tares would grow together and not be separated until the day of the Lord, then I will follow that wisdom....

I counsel many of the 5 fold gifts to the body, and one thing is a constant. They usually get into hurt, offense and have a root of bitterness, because they have not properly let something in their character die that has to do with....

How they are perceived by others in the same gifting and call or in other gifting and call.
Constantly seeking the validation and approval of man.
Fighting over doctrine
Have spread rumors and discord against others
Personal pride.
Calling out who THEY perceive as false teachers with false gifts, etc...

2Tim 2 and Titus 3 teach us here and in spades....

 

[Grace777x70]

Where in the Bible do we see Jesus or anyone else telling us outright that we should seek out and then destroy the character of those WE perceive to be a false prophet, teaching false doctrine?

I see Jesus warning us about them and how to identify them and not listen to them, the same for Paul and even John, but where do we see that we are taught to make slanderous accusations against them and all in the name of GEE....ZUS!?!?!? Titus 3 will not give you defense here....


There are plenty of movements/denominations, etc that I disagree with....For the record one of the ones that I really have to keep my flesh in check with is the Word of Faith movement....that said, it does me know good to accuse them of anything....Acts 5 and Matthew 13 keep me in check on those folks....

If Jesus told us that the wheat and the tares would grow together and not be separated until the day of the Lord, then I will follow that wisdom....

I counsel many of the 5 fold gifts to the body, and one thing is a constant. They usually get into hurt, offense and have a root of bitterness, because they have not properly let something in their character die that has to do with....

How they are perceived by others in the same gifting and call or in other gifting and call.
Constantly seeking the validation and approval of man.
Fighting over doctrine
Have spread rumors and discord against others
Personal pride.
Calling out who THEY perceive as false teachers with false gifts, etc...

2Tim 2 and Titus 3 teach us here and in spades....

Amen....well said...and sound advice! A root of bitterness defiles many of us when we come short of the grace of God as Hebrews 12:15 states. ( can't rep you - have to spread it around )

 

[LaurenTM]

I am pretty sure that Ruth used one in the field....that is why Boaz was like hubba hubba...ruthiiiee....I am your kinsman Redeemer!!!!

yeah...

think I'll saddle up and go watch the sunset

 

[LaurenTM]

when people make things personal it always go south quicker than penguins on vacation

the op starts a thread on the fact that 'God is love' Jesus loves us...which IS scriptural and some people think that means some are thinking or saying we all now have a license to sin

y'all got space to rent between the ears if that is what you think

 

[eph610]

yeah...

think I'll saddle up and go watch the sunset

Is this a real photo of you and the horse or just stock footage?

We had to get rid of our horses...sadddest day around our house in a long time....they went to a Christian youth camp and are still there doing their thing...we went and saw them and rode them a few months ago....

God is moving us from the country back into town....Sometimes I understand Elijah perfectly well when he said;

IS it enough...............

 

[LaurenTM]

Is this a real photo of you and the horse or just stock footage?

We had to get rid of our horses...sadddest day around our house in a long time....they went to a Christian youth camp and are still there doing their thing...we went and saw them and rode them a few months ago....

God is moving us from the country back into town....Sometimes I understand Elijah perfectly well when he said;

IS it enough...............

well, that would have been me once...this is a stock photo...but otherwise

I sold my gorgeous boy last year...last horse..he is now starting a show career with the woman who bought him

she sent me photos a couple of weeks back...that was a hard thing to sell him; had him since he was just a weanling..cremello with a blaze...16.2 and just beautiful inside and out

I do hope to be riding again though...prob not on my own horse though

I've always loved them!...at least I get to keep my woolies

 

[LaurenTM]

this is him...he's about 3 here...he's 6 now...sold him @ 5

 

[eph610]

very nice!

 

[LaurenTM]

very nice!

yeah...but it was his personality...I've never owned an ugly horse...but this guy was just the nicest!

took a long time until I could walk into the barn without getting a pang in my stomach

anyway

 

[LaurenTM]

Yes, the gospel has been distorted and twisted many times. And it can happen rapidly, as the take over of this forum by hypergrace believers proves. Not church tradition but the truth of the Holy Spirit working in my heart and life, and my knowledge of Bible interpretation (Greek and Hebrew help, but dividing the word is even more important!), that led me to stand against this cult, it's heresies, and the lies that are being told here.

Do you honestly think I would reverse my position on this topic and get battered by unthinking people every single thread, if the Holy Spirit had not absolutely and utterly spoken to me? I am not that strong in myself. As for church traditions, as a former rebel, God has used that streak of discontent and disbelief to lead me to question everything! The matter is not settled. The church traditions that hypergrace have started are the real problem here.

And so many have been led astray by this cult in CC. Just so sad!

battered by unthinking people?

have a bit of a high opinion of yourself there I think

there is no need to get personally nasty like that...you are revealing yourself in that post

 

[eph610]

yeah...but it was his personality...I've never owned an ugly horse...but this guy was just the nicest!

took a long time until I could walk into the barn without getting a pang in my stomach

anyway

Yeah, I know what you mean... My wife had a Dark brown Tobian Paint and her gelding was half Tobian half Tennessee Walker...great barrel racer and was our daughters....mine was a male Blue Roan...


anyway.....

 

[PinkDiamond]

I don't know what all other people believe about every teaching from Jesus but I believe there are some elements of His teachings that were for those that lived under the Law.

As, I said - Jesus gave the Law to those that were self-righteous. These do not apply to the believer in Christ now after the cross.

Give me an example and I will tell you what I believe.

Although I don't completely agree with you, I think I get the point you are trying to make. I think your point is getting lost in this thread. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting your position.

I think that the current state of our heart dictates how we perceive Christ and his teachings. If we have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit to our truly sinful state and are penitent, we are ready to be shown grace and mercy. We don't need to be rebuked or shown how we have fallen short of God's law, because we already know it. On the flip side, a person who has not been enlightened and feels complacent in their own righteousness is not ready to hear the mercy and grace of the gospel. For want of better term, they need to be brought lower first and shown by the Holy Spirit just how sinful they truly are. I do agree with you that Christ's interaction with various people did vary greatly. It's not that his message ever changed or was contradictory. ( This may be where we differ. I don't think the different responses from Christ point to OT and NT teachings) He tailored his remarks to address the state of each group or individual he was addressing. I think a good example is the story of the woman who washed his feat with her tears. Christ was only gentle and tender with her, yet he rebuked the self righteous men that condemned her show of devotion. I do agree with you that Christ used the very same law of Moses that the Pharisees revered and thought they obeyed to condemn the self righteous. The only point I would make that might be slightly contradictory to your post is that I still see those corrective remarks of Christ to be applicable to us now. As I see it, Christ didn't condemn them simply by reiterating to them the law of Moses. He caught them by interpreting the spirit of the law. He showed them that they had outward observance but no inward obedience. The distinction was summed up in his exhortation to obey the moral law. Although we aren't under obligation to obey the entire law of Moses we are in the new covenant obliged to follow the moral law of God. I still see continuity here

 

[Grace777x70]

Although I don't completely agree with you, I think I get the point you are trying to make. I think your point is getting lost in this thread. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting your position.

I think that the current state of our heart dictates how we perceive Christ and his teachings. If we have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit to our truly sinful state and are penitent, we are ready to be shown grace and mercy. We don't need to be rebuked or shown how we have fallen short of God's law, because we already know it. On the flip side, a person who has not been enlightened and feels complacent in their own righteousness is not ready to hear the mercy and grace of the gospel. For want of better term, they need to be brought lower first and shown by the Holy Spirit just how sinful they truly are. I do agree with you that Christ's interaction with various people did vary greatly. It's not that his message ever changed or was contradictory. ( This may be where we differ. I don't think the different responses from Christ point to OT and NT teachings) He tailored his remarks to address the state of each group or individual he was addressing. I think a good example is the story of the woman who washed his feat with her tears. Christ was only gentle and tender with her, yet he rebuked the self righteous men that condemned her show of devotion. I do agree with you that Christ used the very same law of Moses that the Pharisees revered and thought they obeyed to condemn the self righteous. The only point I would make that might be slightly contradictory to your post is that I still see those corrective remarks of Christ to be applicable to us now. As I see it, Christ didn't condemn them simply by reiterating to them the law of Moses. He caught them by interpreting the spirit of the law. He showed them that they had outward observance but no inward obedience. The distinction was summed up in his exhortation to obey the moral law. Although we aren't under obligation to obey the entire law of Moses we are in the new covenant obliged to follow the moral law of God. I still see continuity here

Yes...Jesus brought the Law up to it's real intent in some cases to those who were self-righteous - the religious people of His day. His purpose as you stated was to reveal their sinfulness and I add - their need for a Savior because He still loves them deeply - just not their religion which was deceiving them.

Jesus gave the law elevated on steroids to those that were self-righteous when He was teaching while on this earth. Jesus now that He is seated on the right hand of the Father is NOT giving out the law to His righteous ones who are in Him. The Law of Moses is good and holy but it is NOT for the righteous but for the unrighteous. 1 Tim. 1:9

So, the Christian after the cross and resurrection of our Lord is NOT under the law of Moses, we have been released from the law of Moses, and have died to the law of Moses. We live now in the New Covenant by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus ( Romans 8:2 ) - the law of faith, the law of love, the law of liberty in Christ Jesus, - the law of Christ.

We live now by the life of Another which is Christ Himself in us. We don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with animals as the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop us. We can trust the Holy Spirit inside of us to lead us now that we are sons/daughters of God.

 

[PinkDiamond]

Yes...Jesus brought the Law up to it's real intent in some cases to those who were self-righteous - the religious people of His day. His purpose as you stated was to reveal their sinfulness and I add - their need for a Savior because He still loves them deeply - just not their religion which was deceiving them.

Jesus gave the law elevated on steroids to those that were self-righteous when He was teaching while on this earth. Jesus now that He is seated on the right hand of the Father is NOT giving out the law to His righteous ones who are in Him. The Law of Moses is good and holy but it is NOT for the righteous but for the unrighteous. 1 Tim. 1:9

So, the Christian after the cross and resurrection of our Lord is NOT under the law of Moses, we have been released from the law of Moses, and have died to the law of Moses. We live now in the New Covenant by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus ( Romans 8:2 ) - the law of faith, the law of love, the law of liberty in Christ Jesus, - the law of Christ.

We live now by the life of Another which is Christ Himself in us. We don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with animals as the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop us. We can trust the Holy Spirit inside of us to lead us now that we are sons/daughters of God.

Okay, I don't disagree with your points in this post.

 

[ladylynn]

Much of the false perception of God to many are because of the false representatives in the organized 'church' that have turned His plan into a den of thieves for control and financial gain. Where have we seen this movie before? Oh yea. Matt.23, the pastors in Jerusalem.
How can a broken human being, look at that mess and not take away from it a distorted view of God. Pay day is coming boys and girls. Jesus with a cat o nine tails.

I'm glad you have always known God loves you Yet. I also believe it's not only the church has given people a wrong idea of who God is and what He expects of us but just humankind in general and the way humans think. Religion is just an off shoot of man's best efforts at moral reform with a spiritual spin.

For instance., some years ago I was all for helping fight against taking the 10 Commandments out of the schools. Many Christians were having a fit and fighting to have it put back and we lost the fight miserably. I realized it's because we can't mandate morality.

I sure wish our country would have remembered the foundations America was built on but as time has gone on., people are not being taught and morality is a lost way of life for most. It would be more in keeping with the needs of the schools to post John 3:16 because that is the only answer to real change.

But I realized God loves all these angry distorted people who fight against good. Those who actually believe they are allowed to do what they want with their "own" bodies without paying a major price even in this world. They don't have God so they are being what they are., sinners. Churches are also filled with sinners who don't know God. They are just religious sinners. They are sinning just as much as the unmoral sinners. A sinner is a sinner. A moral sinner will go to hell just as fast as a unmoral sinner.

The "church" today., the ones you talk about and call judgment upon for sure will face God without Christ and it will be a horrible thing. They are just as distorted as we all were. Remember that verse that says "and such were some of you" When I look at religious people I see such a need for the true revelation of God's grace for them. They think just like I did that God is always testing testing testing just waiting for us to fall so we could be punished. That Jesus is the Shepherd with the staff and rod ready to beat us to death if need be. When in truth it is us who go away from Him and fall into the thorns and briers and get eaten by wolves. The Good Shepherd didn't cause that., we did.

But in fact, God is waiting to save and bless us 'but we would not' I just cannot imagine the horrible regrets that people will have with no end and no possibility to make any changes ever again. What could be worse than having no hope? And not only that but satan has fooled people into thinking even now they have no hope and many are choosing suicide over life. No wonder the Bible calls him the deceiver who comes to kill steal and destroy. Full of seething hate.

It just seems so obvious to me that all those without Christ will suffer horribly because they believed the lie. Since I was a religious sinner I suppose there is more pity in me for the legalist. When I believed God was against me there was no hope. Thank GOD He sent the message of grace and truth to me. That because of Jesus all sin is forgiven. No sin is above another and where there is life there is hope.

 

[ladylynn]

Nooo..... it comes down to proper interpretation of scripture, not mixing carnal feelings or interpretation into it.

If you read 1 Cor.13 you can see how impossible it is to follow. That kind of love is God's kind of love., it's gracious love not the human kind we are used to. What you call mixing carnal feelings and interpretation I call grace. Because grace is undeserving un merited un earned. We can't do it unless we have experienced it in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

When the new covenant came in after Jesus died on the cross and rose again, God's love was given full expression. All because of Jesus. God is now able to JUDICIOUSLY and LEGALLY love us by grace.

We can't be good enough but Jesus IS good enough. So we can sit on our Fathers lap. We can now ask the Father to help us and guide us. We can know without a shadow of a doubt that He is for us and not against us. All because of the perfect Son Jesus who died and paid for our way to God's "lap" sort of speak. We can hug Him and be close to Him without restriction. All because of Jesus.

That kind of thinking is not carnal but can only be dared to have the faith to believe because we know Jesus is the way to God. And we have Jesus !! "He who has the Son has life. He who has not the Son of God has not life, but the wrath of God abides on them." We don't have God's wrath on us anymore. Jesus took it.
[h=1]1 Corinthians 13Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)[/h] 13 If I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such [SUP][a][/SUP]as is inspired by God’s love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]And if I have prophetic powers ([SUP][b][/SUP]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God’s love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]Even if I dole out all that I have [to the poor in providing] food, and if I surrender my body to be burned or [SUP][c][/SUP]in order that I may glory, but have not love (God’s love in me), I gain nothing.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
[SUP]
6 [/SUP]It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
[SUP]
7 [/SUP]Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
[SUP]
8 [/SUP]Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy ([SUP][d][/SUP]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as [SUP][e][/SUP]in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand [SUP][f][/SUP]fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been [SUP][g][/SUP]fully and clearly known and understood [[SUP][h][/SUP]by God].
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And so faith, hope, love abide [faith—conviction and belief respecting man’s relation to God and divine things; hope—joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love—true affection for God and man, growing out of God’s love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[ladylynn]

As far as Hypergrace, I had never heard the term until the last year, when the devotees of Joseph Prince started flooding this forum. It is their term, not something those of us who strongly disagree with this wrong doctrine have coined. It is based on faulty hermeneutics, including the ONE time that hyper grace (super-abounding) is mentioned. You just cannot make a doctrine based on one verse, OT or NT, and the entire foundation of this movement is based on one verse, which would not stand up in any historical or modern study of theology.

By failing to see the incredible grace of God in the OT, this cult has denigrated Christ and the Bible. The OT is the story of Jesus Christ, and his amazing grace. Surely Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David and all the Old Testament saints knew the grace of God! Or the Ninevites! Not even chosen, yet when God warned them, through the very graceless Jonah, and they REPENTED of their sins, and God relented and did not "smite" them - meaning wipe them out - that was the most amazing demonstration of grace. They had no faith, but God gave them the grace to repent and they did.

Oh, there is that nasty little word that I saw a thread the other day, with people twisting the meaning of. Repentance just means to change your mind! Really?? Change from what to what? Oh, from going to the grocery store versus the farmer's market! WHAT?? What does that have to do with the Biblical account of repentance? Right - bad hermeneutics - picking and choosing verses, ignoring the ones that say thing they don't like, misinterpreting the Greek again.

I was all for this hypergrace lie, until I realized that the traditional and Biblical definitions of words like "sin," "repentance," and even grace had been redefined and changed radically into something that was not from God. People criticize me, say I had defected to the enemy, when in fact this new teaching that has swept the forum, and is pounded on by certain people daily is the lie. And hey, I know some people won't like it when I say, I have a LOT of Bible training, including Biblical languages, but more important, hermeneutics (Bible interpretation!) and theology, but it does help me recognize "junk" or "folk" theology when I see it. I wish everyone could have a course on hermeneutics. I took my Bible interpretation from a seminary which had 5 different denominations - Evangelical Free, Mennonite Brethren, Pentecostal, 2 Baptist denominations. And I transferred the credit to another Baptist denomination. And they all agree on the basics of how to correctly divide the word of God.

This forum has run amok! People are now at the point where they are implying that anyone who does not believe in "hypergrace" does not believe that Jesus loves them! Wow! Just wow!

Jesus' love was the ONLY reason I was saved! Jesus' love was the only reason I was able to continue to walk with him. Jesus' love is what give me hope in a crippled body! Jesus' love is my hope for eternity! God saved me - I did not save myself. So no, I will never lose my salvation, nor any other true believer who continues to abide or remain in Christ. (See John 15 - those branches that were prune and thrown into the fire did not throw themselves in!)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him would not perish, but have everlasting love." John 3:16

I fear greatly for the people who are propagating this whole lie of the redefined gospel according to JP and hypergrace. They are deceiving even the elect.

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." Matt 24:24

In my journey about the definition of God's love (grace) I found that His love is the message. Seeing verses all over again through the lens of Jesus now. Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved" That is full of grace and truth.

How could Jesus NOT condemn the world? We are alllll so BAD. The whole world is full of stinking rotten lousy sinners who do all kinds of defiling gross things so much so we don't even speak of it. And yet Jesus has come. And has reconciled us to the Father in this time of grace, the good news of the Gospel of salvation is going out into the world and saying God loves you just as you are. Come as you are all you sinners and let Him love you and make you new.

It is GOOD NEWS. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT the same old news of man's religion that has always said; you do good you will get good. If you are rotten than go clean up before coming to show your worthiness. NO NO NO the message all along throughout the old testament when it was hidden in pictures of the blood sacrifices and the pure spotless white lamb., Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. NOT US. We can't fix our problem.

Christ died as the perfect Lamb without blemish or any spot, He rose again defeating death. The message is; you are SOO bad and unworthy and so far gone in your sin that there is no make over in you!! BUT because God has always loved you He has planned all along and made provision!!!

This kind of LOVE/GRACE provision is what will free you from your mess. And so.... God SOOO loved the whole world He sent and gave His Son to PAY for all those vile ugly horrible sins that cause a sick mind distortion, a sick body with ultimate death being the end result.

It's not how sorry we are it's how hopeless we are. We are lost and need to be found. God didn't send Jesus to fix up our old man and make him better. And it's interesting that long after a person is saved does he recognize the extent of the kind of grace it took for God to forgive them. As a saved person is being taught about Jesus, we can't help but realize how much Jesus has given to those who are sooo unworthy and disgustingly ugly to the core. It takes a new birth to begin again. The old man is gone and the new has come.

Understanding grace (God's love) will bring out the holiness of Christ. Will cause a person to be changed into His image. It is the love of God that brings man to repentance and change.

Does God respect our sinful emotions? Does He care that we cry in our selfishness? Did He care about Judas and his so deep a regret and sorrow that he committed suicide?? Did that sorrow get that man anywhere? NO. It takes a Godly sorrow., one that causes change because it has no condemnation and is full of grace understanding. Sort of like we have heard that God is a jealous God. Not jealousy that is sinful but the kind that is proper and of a Godly sort. And so is Godly sorrow and repentance. God repented many times but He certainly didn't make a mistake or sin. That is impossible. So what kind of repentance can God have?

These and many other questions can only be answered with knowing the differences between God's ways and our ways. Our ways are not His ways. His ways are totally different and He calls us to have the mind of Christ. Learning about grace is an amazing process. There is no fear in love but perfect love (grace) casts out fear.

 

[ladylynn]

OK, now we have the 'lens' of the NT, which being interpreted is, "how I see it at the time."

How convenient..... First make a rule with a loophole in it, then exploit that loophole to no end, all the while telling dissenters that rule stands. Kinda hard to lose that way, eh?

We humans cannot help but try to find some kind of "loophole" in grace. We can't believe that something is FREE without meaning we must DOOO something to get it or keep it. We can't think like God does until we accept His love. We can't love others or God until we accept God's love for ourselves. We love Him because He first loved us. And we cannot love Him unless we know He loves us. We have to believe the truth before it can change us.

Until that happens., people will fight tooth and nail to get rid of this idea of grace that says you can have all that is Holy and Good and still be rotten to the core.

Jesus came for sinners those "people" who are rotten and vile to the core. Not for anyone who thinks they are righteous and can help themselves. All human righteousness is as filthy disgusting gross rags.,putrid to the core. Even the nicest guy or gal on planet earth is just as vile as the worst murderer as far as sin and judgement is concerned. Both are separated from God if they don't have Jesus. Jesus is the ONE factor that changes the scenario.