I worry for them.. Because they are disbelieving in the sufficiency of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ for their salvation.. When they say we MUST stop sinning to be saved they are adding a Work to the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and thus declaring it insufficient to save... In doing this they have effectively rejected the Love of the truth by which they would be saved..
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That's why it worries me when people say the one sacrifice of our perfect high priests Which God said makes us perfected forever, is not enough..
Well said!.....and these types try to malign those that do trust in our Lord's work for us. They are "hidden reefs" amongst us that can cause the young in Christ to be ship-wrecked in their faith.
You still are not understanding what I am saying 
except for people like skinski, who here do you see sitting back in their chair thinking they are perfect. and do not need to work any more.
God said I am perfect (in him) and there is nothing anyone can do to change that.
God also said I am a work in progress (being sanctified) and this is also a fact, and nothign can change that
The hyper grace crow is not teaching sinless perfection.
except for people like skinski, who here do you see sitting back in their chair thinking they are perfect. and do not need to work any more.
God said I am perfect (in him) and there is nothing anyone can do to change that.
God also said I am a work in progress (being sanctified) and this is also a fact, and nothign can change that
The hyper grace crow is not teaching sinless perfection.
yes, in Him.
it's a classic case of 'the now and the not yet'. we ARE seated in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus.
we are reckoned as perfect IN Christ. (it's really amazing how often the Bible speaks of us as being in Christ!
)it's all a part of being in Christ, or what theologians call (i think? lol) Union with Christ.
it's spoken of in pictorial language throughout the Bible, such as John's use of the Vine metaphor.
wanna bear fruit? remain in the Vine.
in The Revelation, it's a wedding, and a wedding garment.
Paul speaks of it as a marriage, Christ and the Church like a husband and wife. and he talks of Christ in us, too.
of course you know we have responsibilities, i'm not saying you don't! and one of the loveliest things about union with Christ is we can be assured we will have long term growth, we will receive discipline, pruning so as to bear more fruit.
another thing about union with Christ is it unites us to the rest of the Body, so there ought to be fewer contentious moments.
unless, as you say, poor skinski posts. i fear for him (hope you're reading, Scott!).
after 4 years of reading his posts, it seems to me he thinks we have to, er clean the outside of the cup and then we'll be acceptable to God. which, as you well know, EG, is not the Gospel. it's moralism.
i fear he will be one of those who say, Lord, Lord didn't we do this and that in Your Name?
and we know what he'll hear.
E
yes, in Him.
it's a classic case of 'the now and the not yet'. we ARE seated in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus.
we are reckoned as perfect IN Christ. (it's really amazing how often the Bible speaks of us as being in Christ! )
it's all a part of being in Christ, or what theologians call (i think? lol) Union with Christ.
it's spoken of in pictorial language throughout the Bible, such as John's use of the Vine metaphor.
wanna bear fruit? remain in the Vine.
in The Revelation, it's a wedding, and a wedding garment.
Paul speaks of it as a marriage, Christ and the Church like a husband and wife. and he talks of Christ in us, too.
of course you know we have responsibilities, i'm not saying you don't! and one of the loveliest things about union with Christ is we can be assured we will have long term growth, we will receive discipline, pruning so as to bear more fruit.
another thing about union with Christ is it unites us to the rest of the Body, so there ought to be fewer contentious moments.
unless, as you say, poor skinski posts. i fear for him (hope you're reading, Scott!).
after 4 years of reading his posts, it seems to me he thinks we have to, er clean the outside of the cup and then we'll be acceptable to God. which, as you well know, EG, is not the Gospel. it's moralism.
i fear he will be one of those who say, Lord, Lord didn't we do this and that in Your Name?
and we know what he'll hear.
it's a classic case of 'the now and the not yet'. we ARE seated in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus.
we are reckoned as perfect IN Christ. (it's really amazing how often the Bible speaks of us as being in Christ!
)it's all a part of being in Christ, or what theologians call (i think? lol) Union with Christ.
it's spoken of in pictorial language throughout the Bible, such as John's use of the Vine metaphor.
wanna bear fruit? remain in the Vine.
in The Revelation, it's a wedding, and a wedding garment.
Paul speaks of it as a marriage, Christ and the Church like a husband and wife. and he talks of Christ in us, too.
of course you know we have responsibilities, i'm not saying you don't! and one of the loveliest things about union with Christ is we can be assured we will have long term growth, we will receive discipline, pruning so as to bear more fruit.
another thing about union with Christ is it unites us to the rest of the Body, so there ought to be fewer contentious moments.
unless, as you say, poor skinski posts. i fear for him (hope you're reading, Scott!).
after 4 years of reading his posts, it seems to me he thinks we have to, er clean the outside of the cup and then we'll be acceptable to God. which, as you well know, EG, is not the Gospel. it's moralism.
i fear he will be one of those who say, Lord, Lord didn't we do this and that in Your Name?
and we know what he'll hear.
The high priest whent in once a year on the day of atonement, and sprinkled blood on the mercy seat.
Jesus went in one time, and forever more sits at the right hand of God as our perfect high priest.. His blood is what saves us..
This is what I have been saying - what you say in your last sentence here. I am far from perfect. I, of course, have to admit that it is one of those huge mysteries how God can live in me while I am so wicked and arrogant and mistrustful of Him at times. I don't get too caught up in wondering how it can be possible, but I cannot accept the idea that I am perfect and holy. In fact, some men say they are perfect and holy (but not sinless). But make no mistake, a righteous man DOES what is righteous. (my paraphrase of a verse I read). Then these men who say they are perfect and holy (but not sinless) take issue with a man who says that they find they go longer and longer periods of time not being aware of any sin they have committed, in deed or in spirit.
To recap,
One man says, I am perfect and holy, but not sinless.
Another says, I am not perfect and holy, but I go longer periods of time not being aware of any sin I have committed.
The first man rails against the second man for saying he is sinless to the best of his knowledge and his conscience is clear.
The second man rails against the first man for saying he is perfect and holy but that he can never stop sinning.
Usually, (not always, but usually) I see the first man saying we will never be free of sin on earth and the second man saying, if I abide in Him I don't sin, so let me race to apprehend to a trust so completely in Him and nothing else that I won't sin.
The first man gives me hope for a future. The second man gives me hope for a future AND for right now.
I love quite a few brothers and sisters in here who are that first man in their understanding and thoughts. I've talked with them a lot and don't think they will get angry with me for sharing my thoughts and my heart with them as they've shared with me. I think the only reason to continue sinning is because there still remain in us areas of mistrust and unbelief and unsurrenderedness to His will because of our self will.
What I am most helped by is practical help that builds my trust in Him. For instance, I read a man who said that to know the will of God, it is only necessary to look at whatever circumstance I find myself in at the moment. And I knew when I read it that it was true. I had always prayed for my circumstances to be changed (i.e: please give me a job, please make this person stop abusing me, etc.) After I read it and understood it deeply, many verses flew through my mind, like, leave him alone. If he is throwing rocks at me it's because God told him to. And I understood that peace in my circumstance is what He desires from me because firm trust truly believes that He guides my every step and that no matter what plans I may make or desire, it is HE who guides my steps into every circumstance I find myself in. Once I understood this, nothing I saw was ever anything other than the hand of God in my life, no matter how awful it appeared to me.
But I don't want to make it sound like that is not great struggle (to get to that blessed place of understanding). Because it requires my death to all my own desires and to my desire for easiness and quiet. It is not sin to place my requests before Him (please give me a job, please make them stop attacking me so viciously, please heal my hands, etc.) The sin comes when if He says no, I do not receive the no with patience and the thought: nevertheless, Your will, not mine. There is great struggling with God before we can get to a place of that kind of trust because it hinges on my death, and men don't often die without a lot of gasping and fighting to live and agony.
To recap,
One man says, I am perfect and holy, but not sinless.
Another says, I am not perfect and holy, but I go longer periods of time not being aware of any sin I have committed.
The first man rails against the second man for saying he is sinless to the best of his knowledge and his conscience is clear.
The second man rails against the first man for saying he is perfect and holy but that he can never stop sinning.
Usually, (not always, but usually) I see the first man saying we will never be free of sin on earth and the second man saying, if I abide in Him I don't sin, so let me race to apprehend to a trust so completely in Him and nothing else that I won't sin.
The first man gives me hope for a future. The second man gives me hope for a future AND for right now.
I love quite a few brothers and sisters in here who are that first man in their understanding and thoughts. I've talked with them a lot and don't think they will get angry with me for sharing my thoughts and my heart with them as they've shared with me. I think the only reason to continue sinning is because there still remain in us areas of mistrust and unbelief and unsurrenderedness to His will because of our self will.
What I am most helped by is practical help that builds my trust in Him. For instance, I read a man who said that to know the will of God, it is only necessary to look at whatever circumstance I find myself in at the moment. And I knew when I read it that it was true. I had always prayed for my circumstances to be changed (i.e: please give me a job, please make this person stop abusing me, etc.) After I read it and understood it deeply, many verses flew through my mind, like, leave him alone. If he is throwing rocks at me it's because God told him to. And I understood that peace in my circumstance is what He desires from me because firm trust truly believes that He guides my every step and that no matter what plans I may make or desire, it is HE who guides my steps into every circumstance I find myself in. Once I understood this, nothing I saw was ever anything other than the hand of God in my life, no matter how awful it appeared to me.
But I don't want to make it sound like that is not great struggle (to get to that blessed place of understanding). Because it requires my death to all my own desires and to my desire for easiness and quiet. It is not sin to place my requests before Him (please give me a job, please make them stop attacking me so viciously, please heal my hands, etc.) The sin comes when if He says no, I do not receive the no with patience and the thought: nevertheless, Your will, not mine. There is great struggling with God before we can get to a place of that kind of trust because it hinges on my death, and men don't often die without a lot of gasping and fighting to live and agony.
i cannot fully fathom what it cost to save us... what the Lord Jesus suffered for us... i know i don't really 'get it'.
but oh, how thankful i am for it!
this morning i was reading and thinking about peace with God and the peace of God, but then i got stuck on peace with God.
peace with God!
i think what happens on the boards is sometimes there's a heavy handedness on the obedience side, without the grace needed to obey God mentioned, and others it's all grace with no obedience mentioned. and there's always someone unhappy.
makes me think of... was it P. T. Barnum? you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time?
but God is good! and He's a faithful Father! He'll see we don't wander too far off.
and may i commend you for your patience toward us all, and i hope you had a lovely weekend with your wife. ♥
Our salvation through the blood of Christ is so complete that we are made in Christ as though we never sinned. Restored to the Creator just as He made us. This restoration is internal not yet external. If we were perfected externally we could not remain here as witnesses for Christ to point others to the salvation of the cross.
All of creation groans in anticipation of the day when everything is made new for eternity. Our day to day struggles contribute to our witness for Christ. Our sojourn in this world is what others see not the great eternal victory we possess in our inner man.
Some of these deeper truths cannot be explained especially to those who do not possess them. These are things that the Holy Spirit teaches.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
All of creation groans in anticipation of the day when everything is made new for eternity. Our day to day struggles contribute to our witness for Christ. Our sojourn in this world is what others see not the great eternal victory we possess in our inner man.
Some of these deeper truths cannot be explained especially to those who do not possess them. These are things that the Holy Spirit teaches.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I actually can agree with this as you state it.
It is in the further explanation that some give where it falls apart for me.
It falls apart for this reason: it is impossible to sin in deed, outwardly, without first having done so inwardly, in my heart and in spirit. So if I sin in deed, I HAVE already sinned in spirit. Do you see where my knot comes in?
It is in the further explanation that some give where it falls apart for me.
It falls apart for this reason: it is impossible to sin in deed, outwardly, without first having done so inwardly, in my heart and in spirit. So if I sin in deed, I HAVE already sinned in spirit. Do you see where my knot comes in?
F
I actually can agree with this as you state it.
It is in the further explanation that some give where it falls apart for me.
It falls apart for this reason: it is impossible to sin in deed, outwardly, without first having done so inwardly, in my heart and in spirit. So if I sin in deed, I HAVE already sinned in spirit. Do you see where my knot comes in?
It is in the further explanation that some give where it falls apart for me.
It falls apart for this reason: it is impossible to sin in deed, outwardly, without first having done so inwardly, in my heart and in spirit. So if I sin in deed, I HAVE already sinned in spirit. Do you see where my knot comes in?
I actually can agree with this as you state it.
It is in the further explanation that some give where it falls apart for me.
It falls apart for this reason: it is impossible to sin in deed, outwardly, without first having done so inwardly, in my heart and in spirit. So if I sin in deed, I HAVE already sinned in spirit. Do you see where my knot comes in?
It is in the further explanation that some give where it falls apart for me.
It falls apart for this reason: it is impossible to sin in deed, outwardly, without first having done so inwardly, in my heart and in spirit. So if I sin in deed, I HAVE already sinned in spirit. Do you see where my knot comes in?
You cannot sin in your spirit - Christ lives in there. 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18.
This is where I believe you are confusing your new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness for the flesh's activity. The works of the flesh do not originate in our spirit where Christ lives. Gal 5:19-21. The fruit of the spirit is the life of Christ in us NOT the works of the flesh. Gal 5:22-23
Does sin drive out Christ in your spirit? Is this sin that one does stronger then Christ? Does it drive out the Holy Spirit who Jesus said shall be in us and with us forever?
Without understanding the new creation in Christ - we will be deceived by sin which is in the flesh and will be there until we leave this earth. We have a new heart in Christ now.
I believe the Lord showed you that hating someone is like murder to just show you that it is indeed sin but that is not the real you. You are a new creation in Christ. When we get our minds renewed to the truth of our true identity in Christ - those "voices" of the flesh will lose their power to deceive us.
H
has it ever occurred to us that what man calls sin is not necessarily sin to God?
Th sin issue has been dealt with completely as far as Abba Father is concern; thus making us perfect beings; beings that never existed before!! These beings(new creation race) in the eyes of God has never sinned!!! The problem is that we walk by sight!! there by saying that God is a liar.
Acknowledging that we still sin, is telling God that what He says in His word ( that we are a complete new species of being) is a lie.
Yes we see ourselves still committing "sins", but my question is this; whose report should we acknowledge; God's or ours?
if God tells me that a carpet is blue whereas i see a red carpet,i would rather agree with God! God says, "you are seeing the carpet as red bc of the light under which you are able to perceive its color! Change the light and you will see the color change as well"!
Only God Knows the true color of that carpet! This is what walking by faith and not by sight is all about!
Th sin issue has been dealt with completely as far as Abba Father is concern; thus making us perfect beings; beings that never existed before!! These beings(new creation race) in the eyes of God has never sinned!!! The problem is that we walk by sight!! there by saying that God is a liar.
Acknowledging that we still sin, is telling God that what He says in His word ( that we are a complete new species of being) is a lie.
Yes we see ourselves still committing "sins", but my question is this; whose report should we acknowledge; God's or ours?
if God tells me that a carpet is blue whereas i see a red carpet,i would rather agree with God! God says, "you are seeing the carpet as red bc of the light under which you are able to perceive its color! Change the light and you will see the color change as well"!
Only God Knows the true color of that carpet! This is what walking by faith and not by sight is all about!
E
i cannot fully fathom what it cost to save us... what the Lord Jesus suffered for us... i know i don't really 'get it'.
but oh, how thankful i am for it!
this morning i was reading and thinking about peace with God and the peace of God, but then i got stuck on peace with God.
peace with God!
i think what happens on the boards is sometimes there's a heavy handedness on the obedience side, without the grace needed to obey God mentioned, and others it's all grace with no obedience mentioned. and there's always someone unhappy.
makes me think of... was it P. T. Barnum? you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time?
but God is good! and He's a faithful Father! He'll see we don't wander too far off.
and may i commend you for your patience toward us all, and i hope you had a lovely weekend with your wife. ♥
but oh, how thankful i am for it!
this morning i was reading and thinking about peace with God and the peace of God, but then i got stuck on peace with God.
peace with God!
i think what happens on the boards is sometimes there's a heavy handedness on the obedience side, without the grace needed to obey God mentioned, and others it's all grace with no obedience mentioned. and there's always someone unhappy.
makes me think of... was it P. T. Barnum? you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time?
but God is good! and He's a faithful Father! He'll see we don't wander too far off.
and may i commend you for your patience toward us all, and i hope you had a lovely weekend with your wife. ♥
And yes, Peace with God.. Faith rest living, how can we do this,, I think it all goes hand in hand with knowing who we are in christ.
E
I actually can agree with this as you state it.
It is in the further explanation that some give where it falls apart for me.
It falls apart for this reason: it is impossible to sin in deed, outwardly, without first having done so inwardly, in my heart and in spirit. So if I sin in deed, I HAVE already sinned in spirit. Do you see where my knot comes in?
It is in the further explanation that some give where it falls apart for me.
It falls apart for this reason: it is impossible to sin in deed, outwardly, without first having done so inwardly, in my heart and in spirit. So if I sin in deed, I HAVE already sinned in spirit. Do you see where my knot comes in?
Thats why I look at the mercy seat (one time I love looking to the law) because it is a perfect picture.
Inside it was the ten commands (we fail to keep them, thus are guilty)
Arron's rod which budded (when we rebelled against Gods leadership)
Manna (when we rebelled against Gods provision)
all which prove we deserve just condemnation.
The high priest sprinkles the blood on the top of the alter.
when the cherub look, they can not see al lthe things against us, Our sin, which is inside us, They see the blood of the innocent shed to make atonement (payment) for redemption.
when a non believers atnds on judgment day, The blood is missing, This they will have to stand on their works. And be found guilty, because the blood did was not applied to their account.
But don't you think His intent is for us to move past basic things which we know (such as that He perfectly fulfilled the just requirement that I die for my sin so that I do not have to fear my death, because His Blood has exonerated me so that I will never pay the price) to an actual being made more and more like His Son through the Holy Spirit in us?
He went to great lengths to explain that it is what comes from inside of me that defiles me. I do not think anyones inner sicknesses are healed by just stating that they no longer have any sin or sickness or imperfection inwardly. To not have it held against me, to remove that fear of my death, is a blessing that brings such great relief that one cannot even explain the depth of the relief. It frees me to pick up my cross and follow Him boldly to my death and to move on to the perfection the Holy Spirit both requires and brings about inside me.
He went to great lengths to explain that it is what comes from inside of me that defiles me. I do not think anyones inner sicknesses are healed by just stating that they no longer have any sin or sickness or imperfection inwardly. To not have it held against me, to remove that fear of my death, is a blessing that brings such great relief that one cannot even explain the depth of the relief. It frees me to pick up my cross and follow Him boldly to my death and to move on to the perfection the Holy Spirit both requires and brings about inside me.
He did not show me that hating someone is like murder. He showed me that hating, and even anger at them, IS murder. This comes from within me to defile me. It is done and executed inside me (and may or may not proceed to the deed in body.) He does not want my defilement. He wants my purity. Everything the Holy Spirit has had the mercy to show me about my inside, my heart and mind, has been to move me toward accepting it is in me, admitting it is in me and looking to Him to change it, I know not how, but the first step was getting me to walk in truth about it, not to deny it exists.