Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Jimbone]

I never encountered a Christian advocating to live a decadent, sinful life because Jesus died for our sins therefore we can do what we want. Where do people get this stuff?

That is because if they said it like that it would get shut down quick, it's [FONT=arial, sans-serif]"[/FONT]a little leaven leavens the whole lump", right? Sometimes it's the places that certain teachings can lead to when carried out to there logical conclusion, and just a little questioning of Gods word. "Did God really say?"

 

[Chester]

#2 is going to be correct, no matter what, if one believes we can lose salvation.

It would not be a wrong accusation.

If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?

You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree.

Such an accusation is just as wrong as if I insist that #1 is true "no matter what".

We can throw stereotypes at one another or we can graciously discuss Scripture

 

[Gr8grace]

You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree.

Such an accusation is just as wrong as if I insist that #1 is true "no matter what".

We can throw stereotypes at one another or we can graciously discuss Scripture

If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?

(2) Someone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is kept by works and by earning it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

from the other thread.

OK! You are entitled to your opinion. You can disagree with me (and you can disagree vehemently!) and that is OK!
I also have my opinion. And I believe in my opinion very deeply as well.

I grew up being taught and believing myself that anyone who taught or believed in "once saved always saved" also believed that it did not matter how you lived - discipleship and good works were unimportant and don't matter - go out and live in sin because you will get to heaven anyway!

I agree, We can disagree.. and unlike certain people. I will not hate you.

Mind if I ask who taught you this, I have been all over the country (I am retired military,) and have been to so many different churches in my travels I have lost count, And I have never heard this.

The only people i have ever heard make this claim, are people who believe we can lose salvation.

ps. I never heard of once saved always saved until recently. I have always called it eternal security, Eternal life. Or the assurance of Jesus, given to those who truly repent.

Those who think you can sin all you want (in scripture) were called licentious. and as James and Jude said, faith was dead (no work) and they are false teachers.

but again, I have never met anyone.

After some wrestling and disputing on this site and in person with people who believe in OSAS I have found that it is not this easy. Not everyone who believes in OSAS believes it does not matter how you live. In fact, some of you on this site who believe in OSAS faithfully teach (and I believe practice) a holy disciplined Godly life.

Just for context purposes. Everyone I have met in CC and in my life who believe in eternal security, believe in a discipleship, growth based system.

We make disciples. Not couch potatoes. Not that everyone will follow us, Even paul mentioned a church who were still babes after years of being established, yet he called them saved. So we have to be careful to judge.. I believe many we think are saved will be lost, based on how they lived, and many we think are lost will have been saved..

I quit saying that everyone who believes in OSAS "doesn't care about sinning and just cares about getting to heaven!" Now, I still believe that this is a very real danger with believing OSAS! If someone really believes OSAS is true, it can lead to them thinking it doesn't really matter how they live!

Now, here is my point! You look at someone who does not believe in OSAS and immediately believe that they depend on works and think they must earn their salvation. Is this a danger with this view? YES! I grew up in an environment that taught and believed and lived that works are what keep you saved! And oh the problems this causes! Dead people who dress right, look right, but inside are hypocrites!

But I don't believe that works keep a person saved.
I do not believe that I earn my initial salvation and I do not believe that I earn my sanctification.

I hear you saying that I believe something that is exactly the opposite of what I believe!

I think that these two statements/accusations are equally useless and unbiblical:
(1) Someone who believes in OSAS does not believe in discipleship and believes it is OK to live a life of sin
(2) Someone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is kept by works and by earning it.


Listen - I am not saying we should not debate and wrestle deeply over this issue of salvation and the gift of eternal life and how it comes to us and what it means! Yes, let's look at what Scripture says and talk ("dispute" as KJV Acts 15 says!). But my point here is that using the two accusations above as blanket statements does not help.

I see these two statements used quite a bit on this forum and I think it doesn't help anything at all!

a few thoughts.

1. OSAS does not cause people to sin more. As I have said, No one I know who loves God and believes in the security in Christ thinks this, nor would teach this.
2. Legalism I do believe causes people to sin more. why? Thay have to water down the law to make it to a point they can feel they are ok. They have to hide their sin, not only from the church, but themselves. Because otherwise, they would be judged or have to judge themselves. and finally, They have to fellowship with people who live as they do, and Many are the most judgmental people I have met.

in fact, Licentious and legalism both come from the same mindset, Pride.

The licentious waters down the law to all sin is ok. whereas the legalist will say I do not smoke drink or have sex, and i have not committed murder so I am ok. Yet they water down the law. because their sin does not stink (in reality)

I explained in my eph 1 comment what eternal security is, To say you can lose salvation. Means you have to do something to keep it. Or not do something to lose it, Both would be works of the flesh.

now. You think we can lose salvation, I have not heard how you think we can lose it. Mind if I ask how?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never encountered a Christian advocating to live a decadent, sinful life because Jesus died for our sins therefore we can do what we want. Where do people get this stuff?

from people who teach against eternal security of the soul (AKA OSAS)

they are the only people i have ever heard that from.

 

[eph610]

Yes.

We were bought with a price. We are no longer our own. If we are faithless, He remains faithful.

Are you implying that If I remain faithless or lose my faith that I am still saved because of Jesus' own faith?

How about we see all of 2 Timothy 2.11-13

[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a trustworthy statement:For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.<<<<<<<<<<<this is not at all saying what you are trying to make it say...it means that IF we stay faithless or become faithless to what on the cross, he remains faithful to the believing and non-believing , because if he were to be faithless towards us or himself, he would deny his own very nature.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

here is my view. for a quick response

(1) Someone who believes in OSAS does not believe in discipleship and believes it is OK to live a life of sin

while this would be a stereotype. According to scripture it could be true James Jude spoke of people who thought they did not have to work. that belief is all they needed, Jude even gave them a name, licentiousness.

However. just because IT CAN BE TRUE, does not mean it is true..


(2) Someone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is kept by works and by earning it.

Unlike point number 1. There is no senerio where this statement would not be fact. If one can lose something, it means they have to earn it. There is no senereo where one can lose something that they did not have to earn, period.

(please note, I am not talking about losing it as in they let it go and are nt using it no more. or they tried to give it back, It is still theirs, whether they have it or not does not matter, A gift given can not be taken back. because the one who recieved the gift did not pay for it. thus it is not theirs to give away.

 

[notuptome]

It was given to us because we believed. If we changed our minds, and disbelieved, would it then be forced upon us?

A truly bizarre question.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Utah]

from people who teach against eternal security of the soul (AKA OSAS)

they are the only people i have ever heard that from.

"Lord, into your hands I commit my spirit" is the essence of my faith in Jesus even though I conduct my life falling tragically short of His glory every single day of my existence.

 

[Magenta]

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Lord, into your hands I commit my spirit" is the essence of my faith in Jesus even though I conduct my life falling tragically short of His glory every single day of my existence.

you and I both brother.

 

[Gr8grace]

Are you implying that If I remain faithless or lose my faith that I am still saved because of Jesus' own faith?

How about we see all of 2 Timothy 2.11-13

[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a trustworthy statement:For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.<<<<<<<<<<<this is not at all saying what you are trying to make it say...it means that IF we stay faithless or become faithless to what on the cross, he remains faithful to the believing and non-believing , because if he were to be faithless towards us or himself, he would deny his own very nature.....

So you tell me how your explanation disproves what I said? You confirm what I just said.

If( and we HAVE) died with Him we shall also live with Him. We have died with Him and are a PART of Him,His body.

Even if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for he cannot deny Himself.

Eph 5~~ 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body.

 

[eph610]

I think the debate is partially about eternal security or conditional/works based Salvation.

I think at the core of the debate is what we should expect to see after true conversion....

I believe this is why God gave us the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman.

If we look at marriage we see how our life should start to progress after the marriage ceremony....


You don't get married and then keep a stash of porn on the side and tell your wife....you can have all of me, expect for my porn collection.....you give all of yourself to your wife...

You don't get married and then keep your own hidden stash of money for clothes and tell your hubby....you can have all of me, expect for my secret stash of cash I use on clothes and girls night out stuff....you give all of yourself to your hubby


Some of you seem to be saying....Hey Jesus yeah we are in relationship but you can only have access to my mind, my worship, my 90 minutes on Sunday morning at the 9AM service and that's it.....because I give the church people enough money to do that other relationship stuff for me.... Oh and hey don't worry about evidence or fruit in our relationship because as long as you are faithful for me, we have a great relationship....OK gotta go to brunch on Sunday at 1045 and T-time is at noon....see ya next Sunday morning.....

Any man that does this to his wife end in divorce, because the wife is not in relationship and does not have enough faith to keep you faithful, when you are faithless to the relationship....

Others seem to imply I must work constantly at my marriage or I will lose it.....because there are rules to be followed,we have Fish and mac n chesse every Monday night, same thing day in and day out....the kids move out and your wife divorces you because you were loveless in the marriage and while you were faithful and true to every jot tittle you had no love to give, just obedience to the laws of the marriage....you were afraid to loose if you did not obey the rules...

A proper marriage is evidenced by the fruit of the couple being one person, and caring about each other......it took time and effort to renew their minds to care for each other, it was cultivated by deep intimacy, love and sacrifice....but in the end the fruit is given to others to eat and grow off of....

It is no different with God and Jesus people.....

Narrow is the way and gate and few find it.......

 

[Chester]

We believe with our heart and not our mind. Our mind gets renewed to the truth if we allow it to when we get the proper teaching about Christ.

The message of Christ brings with it the faith to bring about the new birth in Him. I believe we can have our minds messed up and it does not affect our spirit within us where Christ dwells.

I heard a statistic one time that 50% of people in depression and in mental wards are Christians thinking they have done something wrong like blasphemed the Holy Spirit or have done such sins that God can never forgive them. Bad teaching causes this type of manifestation in the minds of people. The so-called Christian religion has produced more freaks than the world has...lol

I don't doubt that there are Christians in depression and mental wards who think they have done something wrong and that God cannot forgive them. I have seen the tragedy of this kind of belief from my own background and upbringing.

50% though? Might be!

The other 50% were probably taught eternal security and went out and lived in sin and did what they wanted and got so messed up they are now in the mental ward! Just kidding! See - there I go - it is so easy to switch right over to untrue stereotypes!

 

[Chester]

If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?

(2) Someone who does not believe in OSAS believes that salvation is kept by works and by earning it.

I believe that ongoing salvation (sanctification, or Christian growth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have never heard anyone say "Go out and sin all you want" and do not "obey Jesus" and I have listened to over a thousand different messages from various teachers of the grace of Christ

People do get stuck in various things that are destructive but the real Christian does not want to be in that. They want to walk free from those things - not live in them happily.

IMO This is why we need to be preaching grace as only the grace of Christ has the power to change a person from the inside out. We can temporarily change ourselves outwardly by our own self-effort and human will but usually that does not last.

As we see Christ and keep our eyes on Him and in His finished work for us - the Holy Spirit transforms us outwardly to manifest our true nature in our new creations in Christ. We are created in righteousness and holiness. We need to participate in this process and desire to live by the spirit within.

The true Christian that is living in continuous sin is the most miserable person on the planet. ( there are believers that go to church every week and read their bibles and pray all the time and they can be in this category as well as the person out shooting heroin in their arms.. ..only " their thing is malice and the slandering of others in the body of Christ" )

He is living against his true nature on the inside and is constantly trying to cover up this miserableness. This describes those that deliberately refuse to even desire to walk in who they are in Christ and perhaps in some cases they are not really "in Christ" at all.

Perhaps they are in fact "in Christ" but have never really heard the true gospel of the grace of Christ and thus live defeated by various things?

I'll let the angels at the end of the ages separate the tares from the wheat.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't doubt that there are Christians in depression and mental wards who think they have done something wrong and that God cannot forgive them. I have seen the tragedy of this kind of belief from my own background and upbringing.

50% though? Might be!

The other 50% were probably taught eternal security and went out and lived in sin and did what they wanted and got so messed up they are now in the mental ward! Just kidding! See - there I go - it is so easy to switch right over to untrue stereotypes!

It's a quote from a Christian psychiatrists so whatever that means in real life - I don't know. I suppose he would be asking questions relating to religion.

The psychiatrist said it was from the religion that says they lose their salvation by what they do that caused their problems in the first place......See, now I'm doing it too...lol ( maybe the term religious belief might be better? )

 

[Utah]

I don't doubt that there are Christians in depression and mental wards who think they have done something wrong and that God cannot forgive them. I have seen the tragedy of this kind of belief from my own background and upbringing.

50% though? Might be!

The other 50% were probably taught eternal security and went out and lived in sin and did what they wanted and got so messed up they are now in the mental ward! Just kidding! See - there I go - it is so easy to switch right over to untrue stereotypes!

Working in hospice, I've seen multitudes of people who were terrified to die, and the really sad part is, they all had the same religious upbringing -- Catholicism.

 

[eph610]

When Jesus went to the cross he did not give some, he gave all....

 

[eph610]

I believe that ongoing salvation (sanctification, or Christian growth) is entirely by grace through faith, and is not of works.

Is Christian growth really ongoing salvation or is it something else?