Yes and there are some, if not many who get saved but do not mature. A mature tree produces fruit. Some remain babes in Christ. All believers will face the JSOC to be judged according to our works, our labor. Some will receive rewards for good labor producing fruit and some will suffer the loss of rewards for producing no fruit.
Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations
- Thread starter Chester
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Yes and there are some, if not many who get saved but do not mature. A mature tree produces fruit. Some remain babes in Christ. All believers will face the JSOC to be judged according to our works, our labor. Some will receive rewards for good labor producing fruit and some will suffer the loss of rewards for producing no fruit.
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eph610
Guest
Is that what I wrote mag? Look at your heart motives...do you study and pray to become more sanctified or set apart, or do you study and pray to expand relationship with Father, Son and Holy Ghost?
The Pharisees were disciplined in doing everything to become like Moses, but nothing they did came close to the relationship Moses had with God......
We have many in the body today that define their relationship with God as an experience[the smoking,lightening, thunders of Mt. Sinai] or define the relationship based on adherence and works in order to be separate and religious[the Law] but very few had facetime[relationship ] that Moses had...
We have a part in expanding our relationship as Jesus Taught us in John 15, but expanding and growing intimacy and relationship with the God head is not driven by the need to become something we already are....
relationship & intimacy are the fertilizer and water that make us grow into what our spirit already is....
The enemy does not want you to know that you are already sanctified, righteous and ready for total consecration. It is spiritually maturing to the point of total consecration that the enemy wants to destroy.....
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heavenly_bound
Guest
It does seem to be what you said. I was asking for clarification and you ask another question without really answering mine, going on about this group and that group, these people, those people, I was not asking about them. Some people believe sanctification to be an ongoing process. It seems you do not. I shall leave it at that.
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eph610
Guest
Sorry if I seemed to skirt the issue, it was not my intention at all
No, I do not believe sanctification is a process of any kind....I think many misunderstand what sanctification and consecration really are......very few if any understand true relationship. If sons and daughters would apply the same energy into building relationship that they do with trying to be holy, pure , set apart and righteous, the whole world would take notice....
Moses had relationship therefore he received the glory
He received the glory because he understood his positions, not his performances.....and the veil of performance never got in his way....
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Gr8grace
Guest
Spot on Brother. With what the majority of churches teach today, I believe it is many that don't mature. Lots and lots of human good(evil) but very little divine/Spirit good.
But saved.
"but occasionally"
you run into someone who is actually walking in the light.
((wow, now that He showed me this, it just keeps coming up!))
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,
but not to doubtful disputations.
(Romans 14:1, KJV)
but not to doubtful disputations.
(Romans 14:1, KJV)
what in the world does "not to doubtful disputations" mean??
Accept the one whose faith is weak,
without quarreling over disputable matters.
(NIV)
without quarreling over disputable matters.
(NIV)
ok, that is clearer..
- wait, the example Paul gives next is not a "disputable matter" at all
One person's faith allows them to eat anything,
but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
(Romans 14:2)
but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
(Romans 14:2)
there is a clear answer to whether we are free to eat anything sold in the meat market: yes. He declared all foods clean, received with thanksgiving -- and idols are nothing. it's not "disputable" -- and it's not "doubtful" whether this is true.
Now accept the one who is weak in faith,
but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
(NASB)
but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
(NASB)
but Paul himself writes in other places how that any food can be eaten - and right here in verse 2, he says the person who holds the opinion that they can't eat certain foods has weak faith. hasn't he passed judgement on that opinion?
well, what's the Greek actually say? i don't know Greek, but maybe i can see something.
[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361[e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1519[e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]for[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1253[e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]diakriseis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]διακρίσεις[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]passing judgment[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1261[e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dialogismōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]διαλογισμῶν.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]on [his] reasonings.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
wow,
neither the word "doubtful" nor "disputable" is in the actual text at all. what's up with that, KJV? what's up with that, NIV?
*sigh*
heh, NASB seems closer. but there's still that problem: Paul is actually saying one opinion is wrong. but then in the next few verses of Romans 14, he says neither side of that argument should be condemning each other, even though one is clearly wrong. two words here:
(1) diakriseis -- used only twice in the NT, here and then it's exactly the same word here:
1 Corinthians 12:10 N-NFP
GRK: ἄλλῳ δὲ διακρίσεις πνευμάτων ἑτέρῳ
NAS: and to another the distinguishing of spirits,
KJV: to another discerning of spirits;
INT: to another moreover discerning of spirits and to a different one
GRK: ἄλλῳ δὲ διακρίσεις πνευμάτων ἑτέρῳ
NAS: and to another the distinguishing of spirits,
KJV: to another discerning of spirits;
INT: to another moreover discerning of spirits and to a different one
(2) dialogismon -- sounds like "dialogue" to me. same word used here:
My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say,
“You sit here in a good place,”
and you say to the poor man,
“You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,”
have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?
(James 2:1-4, NASB)
(James 2:1-4, NASB)
"motives" -- same word, dialogismon.
also the same word here:
An argument started among them as to which of them might be the greatest. But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, and said to them,
“Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”
(Luke 9:46-48, NASB)
"what they were thinking in their heart"
amen, it is Jah who hath opened.
i see.
accept the one who is weak in faith -- but not discerning their motives.
accept the one who is not fully mature -- but not determining what is in their hearts.
embrace the one who has not yet seen -- but not judging their innermost thoughts.
do you see, what i see?
why this is sooooo relevant?
♥
He is a good God,
a very, very good God.
the Shepherd, the Good One
((wasn't someone last week begging to be shown an example of the NASB being more accurate than the KJV . . . ?))
I do understand what you are saying about neither sanctification nor consecration being ongoing processes and the only thing left is the building of the relationship. Is there a word that describes this building of relationship with the living Lord? Does someone need to have had supernatural encounters (as Moses did) with God to build this relationship?Sorry if I seemed to skirt the issue, it was not my intention at all
No, I do not believe sanctification is a process of any kind....I think many misunderstand what sanctification and consecration really are......very few if any understand true relationship. If sons and daughters would apply the same energy into building relationship that they do with trying to be holy, pure , set apart and righteous, the whole world would take notice....
Moses had relationship therefore he received the glory
He received the glory because he understood his positions, not his performances.....and the veil of performance never got in his way....
E
eph610
Guest
This is like saying....meh.....Jesus only got whipped on one said of his back....and meh, yeah he hung on the cross, but only by one arm and one foot....and they only stuck half of a crown of thorns into his head,.....but meh.....all is well, because he still bled some....and still died....
There will be no loss of salvation at all, just millions who were deceived into thinking....yeah I got Jesus when I was 15 and never had to live any different and someone said I was cool and I did not have to mature, but I got saved.....really Jesus!?!?!? I did get saved right!?!?!? What do you mean!?!?!?...............You don't know me!?!?!?...............I got saved Jesus!?!?!? he [pointing at you gr8grace] said I was fine, because....I got saved!?!?!?
E
eph610
Guest
Is there a word that describes this building of relationship with the living Lord? Does someone need to have had supernatural encounters (as Moses, or Paul did) with God to build this relationship?
G
Gr8grace
Guest
Yeah, I had you pegged from the beginning. You are just relying on your "fruits" and what you are doing as evidence of your salvation.
You Sir, are the most dangerous deception. You are sooooooooo close to the truth, that most don't see your deception.
God only awards imputed righteousness by maintaining faith exclusively in Christ and his finished work (Romans 4:5).
Two kinds of peace
1. Justifying Peace - This is Peace with God, a legal standing. Rom. 8:7; Eph. 2:14-15
2. Sanctifying Peace - This is the Peace of God in the heart. Rom. 8:6; 14:19; 15:13; Gal. 1:3
The first is the result of a legal standing. The second is the result of the Work of the Holy Spirit. The first is static, never fluctuates, the second changes almost from hour to hour. The first, every Christian has, the second, every Christian may have.
Righteousness is a gift based on the finished work of Christ that we receive by faith alone in what Christ has done. It happens when you believe in Christ from your heart and then you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
You were sealed= aorist indicative passive = a one time event in the past and passive means that it was done to you - you did not do it yourself.
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
You were sealed= aorist indicative passive = a one time event in the past and passive means that it was done to you - you did not do it yourself.
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Gr8grace
Guest
And Brother, don't falter on this message. We do NOT have to explain our fruits or our works to others. It is by Grace or it is not.
The people looking for fruits or works are ALWAYS unbelievers or believers who have fallen from Grace. Those believers haven't fallen from salvation, but they have fallen from Grace.
1. Justification (salvation)
2. Sanctification (purification)
3. Glorification (illumination)
These three are not one, but describes the path of rebirth and adoption.
1. Passover
2. Pentecost
3. Tabernacles
1. Egypt
2. Mt. Sinai
3. Promised land
1. Cross
2. Holy Spirit (new life Mt. Zion)
3. New Body (new Jerusalem)
1. The 1st step was always the Lord's work alone (nothing man could/can do but believe in it).
2. In the 2nd step instructions were given to be *followed* (the pillar of cloud and fire, followed; the tablets of stone, followed; the Holy Spirit, a guide to follow).
God leads, but the person *has to walk* where he leads, which is always "apart from the world". If the person following God *does not walk* (their effort), they *never get anywhere*. They never get from bondage (egypt) to freedom (promised land), as God doesn't force anyone to follow him. He's not going to bring step 3 "to" those who don't have faith enough to walk to it either. He doesn't carry anyone.
But for those who do walk, he makes sure their "shoes never wear out" and that they're "fed during the journey". In other words, the *strength* to walk always comes from God alone, but we have to ourselves walk towards his promise.
3. The 3rd step is the result of successfully following through with the 2nd step. It's the goal.
---
...but unfortunately as scripture also details, God's people lack the faith to enter into the promise because it seems too hard to do, instead choosing to wander in the wilderness over and over and over until they die because of unbelief. Some even want to turn back to egypt; never believing enough to follow his instructions to reach his promises.
Did God save them? Yes.
But did they still die anyway? Yes, sadly.
2. Sanctification (purification)
3. Glorification (illumination)
These three are not one, but describes the path of rebirth and adoption.
1. Passover
2. Pentecost
3. Tabernacles
1. Egypt
2. Mt. Sinai
3. Promised land
1. Cross
2. Holy Spirit (new life Mt. Zion)
3. New Body (new Jerusalem)
1. The 1st step was always the Lord's work alone (nothing man could/can do but believe in it).
2. In the 2nd step instructions were given to be *followed* (the pillar of cloud and fire, followed; the tablets of stone, followed; the Holy Spirit, a guide to follow).
God leads, but the person *has to walk* where he leads, which is always "apart from the world". If the person following God *does not walk* (their effort), they *never get anywhere*. They never get from bondage (egypt) to freedom (promised land), as God doesn't force anyone to follow him. He's not going to bring step 3 "to" those who don't have faith enough to walk to it either. He doesn't carry anyone.
But for those who do walk, he makes sure their "shoes never wear out" and that they're "fed during the journey". In other words, the *strength* to walk always comes from God alone, but we have to ourselves walk towards his promise.
3. The 3rd step is the result of successfully following through with the 2nd step. It's the goal.
---
...but unfortunately as scripture also details, God's people lack the faith to enter into the promise because it seems too hard to do, instead choosing to wander in the wilderness over and over and over until they die because of unbelief. Some even want to turn back to egypt; never believing enough to follow his instructions to reach his promises.
Did God save them? Yes.
But did they still die anyway? Yes, sadly.
Moses died in the wilderness without entering into the promised land and yet he was with Jesus and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration. The promised land is a picture of living in the finished work of Christ - it is not a picture of going to heaven. There will be no giants to fight in heaven.
G
Gr8grace
Guest
The promised land was a REWARD for saved individuals. Moses never entered the promised land, but He was saved.
God saved us and we still die physically. But we may not ever have the extra blessing that are for our taking if we don't live the Christian way of life.
Salvation is simple, but to get to the promised extra blessings and rewards after salvation is WORK.