Did any of that generation who were chosen enter the promise land except the two who were faithful enough to obey? No.
By the way, no one has gone to heaven be he who came from heaven. John 3:13
Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations
- Thread starter Chester
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Did any of that generation who were chosen enter the promise land except the two who were faithful enough to obey? No.
By the way, no one has gone to heaven be he who came from heaven. John 3:13
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Gr8grace
Guest
To your point, Moses never entered into God's promise because he broke the parable meant for us. In the same fashion, you're breaking the parable God gave to us. The promise is the immortal body for man, not heaven. New Jerusalem descends TO earth. God dwells with man ON earth.
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Gr8grace
Guest
NO... none entered the promised land but Caleb and Joshua and if we have unbelief in the finished work of Christ - we too will live far below what is available for us in Christ while in this earth.
Yes....I too believe that no one was in heaven until Christ died and rose again and then took the OT saints to heaven.
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Gr8grace
Guest
I hate to derail from the original OP, but just curious (and probably will leave it here): Would you consider King David, who was "a man after God's own heart" an OT saint? What about the prophet Daniel? Would you consider him an OT saint too?
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Gr8grace
Guest
And this irritates the snot out of me. Why would I spread reputation around to those who are teaching FALSE doctrine.
I should be able to rep you as much as I want.
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Gr8grace
Guest
Why would you think otherwise? Of course they were OT saints. They had God speaking to them directly, they had prophets that were NEVER wrong, they had signs and wonders, they had burning bushes that SPOKE to them and donkey's. they SAW, we have not.
We have His written word and faith.
John 20:29~~New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
But they were all saved by their faith. They just had empirical evidence.
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Actually, no Born-Again Believer can be lost. Of that the Word of God is clear and plain.
Unfortunately, these Believers didn't go the one further step necessary to complete their investigation of this matter. They Should have also asked the question, "Can a Born-Again Christian cease to believe in Christ and, thereby, what He did for us at the Cross?"
Yes, a Believer, if he so desires, can cease to believe in Christ and what Christ has done for us at the Cross. That done, and if they continue in that vein, they will be eternally lost. It is free will that gets one in. The Scripture says:
[SUP] [/SUP]And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
As free will gets one in, free will can get one out and keep one out, if that is what the person so desires.
Biblical examples:
The New Testament we find, in John 6:66, that many of the faithful - the very Disciples who worked personally with our Lord - turned away from His Grace and walked with Him no more. In Luke 8:13, the Words of our Saviour Himself tell us that many, in times of temptation fall away after receiving the Word.
Ananias and Sapphira, Hymenaeus and Alexander 1 Tim. 1:19-20, The Defecting of Jewish Believers Heb. 6:4-6, Demas
The scripture says,"Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
All of this means that Salvation is given to the Believer, not by works, or by acts of righteousness, but as a Gift through the act of Faith. It is, of course, maintained in exactly the same way.
Our Status as Believers is not a matter of works, but always of "Faith." Even though a sinner does good works, he does not become acceptable to God on the basis of those works. We can only become acceptable to God on the basis of those works. We can only become acceptable to God through Grace, on the basis of Faith; however, the Object of Faith which is so very, very important, must always be the Cross of Christ (Rom. 6:1-14; 8:1-2, 11; 1 Cor. 1:17-18, 23; 2:2; Gal. 6:14; Col. 2:14-15).
- Pastor Jimmy Swaggart
Unfortunately, these Believers didn't go the one further step necessary to complete their investigation of this matter. They Should have also asked the question, "Can a Born-Again Christian cease to believe in Christ and, thereby, what He did for us at the Cross?"
Yes, a Believer, if he so desires, can cease to believe in Christ and what Christ has done for us at the Cross. That done, and if they continue in that vein, they will be eternally lost. It is free will that gets one in. The Scripture says:
[SUP] [/SUP]And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
As free will gets one in, free will can get one out and keep one out, if that is what the person so desires.
Biblical examples:
The New Testament we find, in John 6:66, that many of the faithful - the very Disciples who worked personally with our Lord - turned away from His Grace and walked with Him no more. In Luke 8:13, the Words of our Saviour Himself tell us that many, in times of temptation fall away after receiving the Word.
Ananias and Sapphira, Hymenaeus and Alexander 1 Tim. 1:19-20, The Defecting of Jewish Believers Heb. 6:4-6, Demas
The scripture says,"Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
All of this means that Salvation is given to the Believer, not by works, or by acts of righteousness, but as a Gift through the act of Faith. It is, of course, maintained in exactly the same way.
Our Status as Believers is not a matter of works, but always of "Faith." Even though a sinner does good works, he does not become acceptable to God on the basis of those works. We can only become acceptable to God on the basis of those works. We can only become acceptable to God through Grace, on the basis of Faith; however, the Object of Faith which is so very, very important, must always be the Cross of Christ (Rom. 6:1-14; 8:1-2, 11; 1 Cor. 1:17-18, 23; 2:2; Gal. 6:14; Col. 2:14-15).
- Pastor Jimmy Swaggart
I guess you two are the same person? But ok. I asked the question because he said Christ took the OT saints to heaven. Yet the following passages say otherwise:
Acts 2:29-33
29 Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.
33 Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at My right hand,
Daniel 12:13
"As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
So I was just wondering if he thought King David and the Prophet Daniel were OT saints.
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Our Status as Believers is not a matter of works, but always of "Faith." Even though a sinner does good works, he does not become acceptable to God on the basis of those works. We can only become acceptable to God through Grace, on the basis of Faith; however, the Object of Faith which is so very, very important, must always be the Cross of Christ (Rom. 6:1-14; 8:1-2, 11; 1 Cor. 1:17-18, 23; 2:2; Gal. 6:14; Col. 2:14-15).
Our Status as Believers is not a matter of works, but always of "Faith." Even though a sinner does good works, he does not become acceptable to God on the basis of those works. We can only become acceptable to God through Grace, on the basis of Faith; however, the Object of Faith which is so very, very important, must always be the Cross of Christ (Rom. 6:1-14; 8:1-2, 11; 1 Cor. 1:17-18, 23; 2:2; Gal. 6:14; Col. 2:14-15).
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Gr8grace
Guest
Yes, he does. I have only been here for a couple of years and know this. How do you not know this?
He has not hid what he believes.
Of course they didn't ascend into heaven when that was spoken....Jesus had to die first and then rise again from the dead. Acts is simply stating that David's tomb was still there where he had died.
It says nothing about "after" Christ came and died and then rose again. David did not ascend into heaven when he died because Jesus had not died for him yet.
When David spoke these words : he was speaking about the Christ and NOT himself which is the whole point of that scripture in Acts.
The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at My right hand,
I think you're missing the point I'm making. I also believe they were saints, but scripture says they didn't ascend to heaven. The point I'm drawing attention to is the "ascended to heaven" part in relation to what we've been talking about (i.e. heaven vs. resurrection and the immortal body).
What about Daniel? He was told he would rest (in the grave) until he stood with his lot at the end of days. It wasn't the end of days at the time of Christ's death and resurrection.
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Gr8grace
Guest
I know what your point is. Nobody is in heaven. Simply wrong. When Jesus Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father he EMPTIED paradise and took all believers to heaven.