Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Grace777x70]

What about Daniel? He was told he would rest (in the grave) until he stood with his lot at the end of days. It wasn't the end of days at the time of Christ's death and resurrection.

On the surface one might think that - however the scriptures say that we are now in the last days since Christ came.

We are too going to receive a new body as well...so that may be Daniel's "allotted inheritance" or maybe it was to be with the Lord in heaven? I don't know for sure what Daniels "allotted inheritance " is.

Acts 2:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

Hebrews 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

 

[Yahshua]

I know what your point is. Nobody is in heaven. Simply wrong. When Jesus Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father he EMPTIED paradise and took all believers to heaven.

No, you missed it again (although I'm sure the other Grace caught my point). My point is that "not all" of the OT saints are in heaven. Not "nobody" as you incorrectly assert for me. In these past couple of exchanges you've spoken for both Grace777 AND me. The following rebuke is for your edification:


James 1:19

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,

 

[Yahshua]

On the surface one might think that - however the scriptures say that we are now in the last days since Christ came.

We are too going to receive a new body as well...so that may be Daniel's "allotted inheritance" or maybe it was to be with the Lord in heaven? I don't know for sure what Daniels "allotted inheritance " is.

Acts 2:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

Hebrews 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Fair enough. I'll leave it at that. Don't want to derail any further.

 

[Grace777x70]

I really have no interest in discussing whether someone goes to be with the Lord when they die or whether some go to a sleep of some sort in the grave. I believe that scripture talks about going to be with the Lord after physically dying on this earth.

Paul said that is was far better to die and be with the Lord than to stay on this earth.

Philippians 1:21-24 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

[SUP]24 [/SUP] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

 

[Gr8grace]

No, you missed it again (although I'm sure the other Grace caught my point). My point is that "not all" of the OT saints are in heaven. Not "nobody" as you incorrectly assert for me. In these past couple of exchanges you've spoken for both Grace777 AND me. The following rebuke is for your edification:


James 1:19

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,

No, I did not miss your point. You are saying some thing is "different" for Daniel. Christ EMPTIED paradise, and HE didn't leave someone in the grave or in paradise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the debate is partially about eternal security or conditional/works based Salvation.

I think at the core of the debate is what we should expect to see after true conversion....

I believe this is why God gave us the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman.

If we look at marriage we see how our life should start to progress after the marriage ceremony....


You don't get married and then keep a stash of porn on the side and tell your wife....you can have all of me, expect for my porn collection.....you give all of yourself to your wife...

You don't get married and then keep your own hidden stash of money for clothes and tell your hubby....you can have all of me, expect for my secret stash of cash I use on clothes and girls night out stuff....you give all of yourself to your hubby


Some of you seem to be saying....Hey Jesus yeah we are in relationship but you can only have access to my mind, my worship, my 90 minutes on Sunday morning at the 9AM service and that's it.....because I give the church people enough money to do that other relationship stuff for me.... Oh and hey don't worry about evidence or fruit in our relationship because as long as you are faithful for me, we have a great relationship....OK gotta go to brunch on Sunday at 1045 and T-time is at noon....see ya next Sunday morning.....

Any man that does this to his wife end in divorce, because the wife is not in relationship and does not have enough faith to keep you faithful, when you are faithless to the relationship....

Others seem to imply I must work constantly at my marriage or I will lose it.....because there are rules to be followed,we have Fish and mac n chesse every Monday night, same thing day in and day out....the kids move out and your wife divorces you because you were loveless in the marriage and while you were faithful and true to every jot tittle you had no love to give, just obedience to the laws of the marriage....you were afraid to loose if you did not obey the rules...

A proper marriage is evidenced by the fruit of the couple being one person, and caring about each other......it took time and effort to renew their minds to care for each other, it was cultivated by deep intimacy, love and sacrifice....but in the end the fruit is given to others to eat and grow off of....

It is no different with God and Jesus people.....

Narrow is the way and gate and few find it.......

I think this is why the debate get's so heated. and people misread each other.

I do not see this as the issue.

The issue is, WHo did the work of salvation. What makes a person saved, and based on these two things, can salvation be lost.

John the apostle makes it clear. A person who is born of God is a new creation, He can not sin, because he has been born of God. A person who sins (habitually, or as a way of life) has never seen God or known God.

That is why what you said the issue is is really not the issue at all..

A religious person can seem to change his life, by giving up a few sins, and act different, by "playing church"

A child of God can remain a baby and need fed milk, by not maturing in Christ, yet that person (according to John) Still will not live in sin, He just is not playing church (religion)

so how a person acts is not a very good indicator of who is saved and who is not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - "Mind if I ask who taught you this, I have been all over the country (I am retired military,) and have been to so many different churches in my travels I have lost count, And I have never heard this.

The only people i have ever heard make this claim, are people who believe we can lose salvation."

Response: Exactly: I was taught this is what people who believe in OSAS believe - that it is OK to sin.

Any church that says it is ok to sin, whether they believe in OSAS or not. is already seen as a false church. One who truly repents and comes to true faith has to admit, it is my sin which seperated me from God. And I am lost with no hope apart from the work of Christ, which by the way, To understand what Christ went through and the cross. the most horrific form of execustion man has ever endured. not to mention the humiliation, and then on top of that, the wrath of God being poured out on him.

That person would NEVER say it is ok to sin, it would not even cross his mind, The fact it does, proves they have never repented. And thus, have never been saved.

I am going to break this reply here. because I think this is an important point to share the root of my belief. and why a child of God would never lose faith to the point they deny Christ (in his heart a true unbeliever) or think it is ok to sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG wrote: "Just for context purposes. Everyone I have met in CC and in my life who believe in eternal security, believe in a discipleship, growth based system. "

Response: I don't know that I met anyone in CC who says this explicitly - that it is OK to sin. I have met at least one individual who says it and lives like it (because he is getting to heaven anyway - he believes).

Well in my view.. that guy will get a rude awakening, when he is standing next to people who say Lord Lord, I did all these works, (legalists) because they will both be in the same boat.

EG wrote: "I believe many we think are saved will be lost, based on how they lived, and many we think are lost will have been saved.. "

Response: Amen! I agree completely!

EG wrote: "1. OSAS does not cause people to sin more. As I have said, No one I know who loves God and believes in the security in Christ thinks this, nor would teach this. "

Response: Sadly I have seen a belief in OSAS cause people to sin more. Do they "love God"? I will not be the judge?

Like I said, I have never witnessed it, and if I saw a church that did teach this, they would be of the small minority of churches, and I would run so fast from them, and pray no one I knew went there, Because trying to explain to him discipleship and christian growth would be hard. And he would call me a legalist. because I would be calling him out for his sin (like Paul did, and every other apostle and disciple did)

EG wrote: "2. Legalism I do believe causes people to sin more. why? Thay have to water down the law to make it to a point they can feel they are ok. They have to hide their sin, not only from the church, but themselves. Because otherwise, they would be judged or have to judge themselves. and finally, They have to fellowship with people who live as they do, and Many are the most judgmental people I have met."

Response: I have seen this too!

Thats good to know. I know many people who went through this, Including myself.

EG wrote: "You think we can lose salvation, I have not heard how you think we can lose it. Mind if I ask how?"

Response: I am not wanting to avoid your question -- but I fear you and I could get into a fierce friendly dispute - save that for another time another thread - Here I want to just try to expose the two stereotypes I mentioned in the opening post

ok. but this may make it hard.. just saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

great questions here. Thanks

Is sanctification a process or a position? and if it is position, is the position only positional or literal?

We are said to be sanctified already, While at the same time, we are called to allow God sanctify us, ot told God is sanctifying us.

So I believe there are two types.

Positional - Set apart by God, seperate from the world. Perfected. Declared righteous. Justified. etc etc.

Conditional. - Daily, even moment by moment, How we act, are we acting like Chirst, Or from the flesh (the world) and how is our life.. more christlike, or less..

Could it be that we are confusing consecration with sanctification at times?

not sure what you mean by consecration.

but I do believe people confuse justification with conditional sanctification.

Is righteousness a process or a position?

It is a judicial act enacted on a child of God the moment we are saved.

It also is right living. acting like your true nature (we were born again with a new nature) and not like your old.

Is salvation a process or a position?

Position, your either saved or your not. no inbetween.

How can gifts be lost?

They can't, They may be misplaced. and not be able to be used (ie the prodigal son) but they are still yours..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My view: a quick response to your response

(1) Wow! I agree - well-said - I don't know that I have ever heard someone who believes in eternal security be so honest about this possibility!

(2) I disagree (vehemently!) And I know you want my arguments - and I won't give them here (because we all know what happens next!)

thanks for the response.

But just for clarification. If you do not. We can get no where with our discussion.

Because you are not explaining your response, it becomes a one way conversation.

but as I said earlier, I will nto judge you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not an escape clause but a very sincere concern for many who may have a false assurance of eternal life.
I have encountered many in my ministry that were saved years after they thought they were saved.
Each and every one was lead to believe they were saved as children by saying some simple prayer and being baptized.
They lived for years with a false assurances until the Holy Spirit finally revealed their true standing before God.
It is not for me to judge, but I am concerned for some on this forum.

Just so you know. The spirit of God testify with God's children they are his, And convicts and disciplines a child of God in sin.

I know many kids who though tthe same thing, and got saved later. It was not that they were told they were secure that was the issue, the issue is they did not trust God. and they were not seeing If God disciplined them, in fact, the lack of disciplin is what made them re-seek christ.

Anyone who has been a prodigal son and gone through the discipline of God can tell you. there is no mistaking the discipline of God. In fact, in my case, I was ready to commit suicide, because even though I had what the world would say all I needed God would not allow me to be happy..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In discussions like this it is always important to clarify terms because we all use words differently. I use "ongoing salvation" to mean that God is continuing to work in the Christian's life to "save" him from the power of sin.

Saving from the power of sin, is different than saving from the judgment of God.

We need to make sure we understand this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, Gr8grace, I am not trying to skirt your question - let me try again . . .

First: Is this the question you meant? "If salvation can be lost, how do I keep it?"

If that is the question my answer is -- we keep salvation by grace through faith, not by works: it is the gift of God -- In actuality, it is not us who keep salvation - it is God who keeps it!

then by this fact, and Gods promise, Salvation can never be lost

 

[eternally-gratefull]

where u the one who put yourself in Him or He is the one who did it?

True, I do not have the power to put myself in God or anyone, for that matter..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did any of that generation who were chosen enter the promise land except the two who were faithful enough to obey? No.

By the way, no one has gone to heaven be he who came from heaven. John 3:13

if this is true, Moses was lost. and not in paradise today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hate to derail from the original OP, but just curious (and probably will leave it here): Would you consider King David, who was "a man after God's own heart" an OT saint? What about the prophet Daniel? Would you consider him an OT saint too?

not sure what that has to do with Moses not entering the promised land. This not being saved (according to your first post. this is the only way to interpret it)

however.

Daniel ( who not one sin is mentioned) and David (whose worse sins were posted for all to see) are both in paradise today awaiting the return of their savior.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, no Born-Again Believer can be lost. Of that the Word of God is clear and plain.

Unfortunately, these Believers didn't go the one further step necessary to complete their investigation of this matter. They Should have also asked the question, "Can a Born-Again Christian cease to believe in Christ and, thereby, what He did for us at the Cross?"

Yes, a Believer, if he so desires, can cease to believe in Christ and what Christ has done for us at the Cross. That done, and if they continue in that vein, they will be eternally lost. It is free will that gets one in. The Scripture says:

And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)

As free will gets one in, free will can get one out and keep one out, if that is what the person so desires.

Biblical examples:

The New Testament we find, in John 6:66, that many of the faithful - the very Disciples who worked personally with our Lord - turned away from His Grace and walked with Him no more. In Luke 8:13, the Words of our Saviour Himself tell us that many, in times of temptation fall away after receiving the Word.

Ananias and Sapphira, Hymenaeus and Alexander 1 Tim. 1:19-20, The Defecting of Jewish Believers Heb. 6:4-6, Demas

The scripture says,"Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”

All of this means that Salvation is given to the Believer, not by works, or by acts of righteousness, but as a Gift through the act of Faith. It is, of course, maintained in exactly the same way.

Our Status as Believers is not a matter of works, but always of "Faith." Even though a sinner does good works, he does not become acceptable to God on the basis of those works. We can only become acceptable to God on the basis of those works. We can only become acceptable to God through Grace, on the basis of Faith; however, the Object of Faith which is so very, very important, must always be the Cross of Christ (Rom. 6:1-14; 8:1-2, 11; 1 Cor. 1:17-18, 23; 2:2; Gal. 6:14; Col. 2:14-15).

- Pastor Jimmy Swaggart

oh boy

A person who refuses to believe in Christ, deny's christ.

according to the apostle John, that person is an antichrist

According to John, that person was never of us (saved) they left (turned to unbelief) because they were never of us to begin with.

A person may lose faith, but God never stops loving him (if we are faithless, he is faithful; he can not deny himself )

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, you missed it again (although I'm sure the other Grace caught my point). My point is that "not all" of the OT saints are in heaven. Not "nobody" as you incorrectly assert for me. In these past couple of exchanges you've spoken for both Grace777 AND me. The following rebuke is for your edification:


James 1:19

My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,

how did we get off the topic of moses entering th epromised land /heaven.

Sneaky Sneaky.. You changed the topic

 

[PeterJens]

The answer for me is an emotional one.

Do you see the cross and Jesus dying on it?

When I truly saw this aged 18 it changed everything for me, literally. Nothing I was or did, or
could do mattered. It was always Jesus and His love.

It takes time for this to grow in a person, to let God work through them, for the words to take
root and everything to set in place. Over the years rather than things becoming fuzzy they have
become clearer. It is less about a faith but more about a reality.

Phil 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to
be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death — even death on a cross!

The question the monks tried was that by taking oaths they could become like Christ.

But my experience is through learning how to love in the world, to walk with people, to
have honesty, integrity and purity, you find the reality of Christ and eternity.

That is why we are called to "work out our salvation" because we are always walking
and becoming, because that is salvation, it is not a place you arrive at, it is a walk you
participate in.

It is like saying a relationship is achieved and then exists without any communication,
which is obviously rubbish. No communication means no relationship.

The real test of life is how many people do you actually really know? And how well
do you know yourself?

I know my friends this is a hard thing to face, but in all honesty, this is what Jesus
is asking of us. The Kingdom is about love and reality, knowing ourselves and others.

And many of you will abuse me for saying this, but then that is the fruit of denial.
If you accept this reality, you know you have to walk deeper, and carry that cross.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

oh boy

A person who refuses to believe in Christ, deny's christ.

according to the apostle John, that person is an antichrist

According to John, that person was never of us (saved) they left (turned to unbelief) because they were never of us to begin with.

A person may lose faith, but God never stops loving him (if we are faithless, he is faithful; he can not deny himself )

Scripture meaning:

If we believe not (believe what He did at the Cross), yet He abides Faithful (despite the unbelief of many, He will be Faithful to Redeem all who come to Him in Faith): He cannot deny Himself. (Heaven will never change the Plan of Redemption and Victory, which is the Cross.) 2 Timothy 2:13