Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[PeterJens]

again, that is different than saying one has to maintain a certain lifestyle or they can lose salvation. And certain people do.

This is an interesting proposition. A lifestyle defines salvation.
We, the group I represent, hold that knowing Christ transforms your heart which produces
a lifestyle as fruit.

Social believers focus only on appearance, because that is all they see.
People of the Kingdom know it is about the heart, love, truth, repentance, transformation.

Your lifestyle is a reflection of what you have become.

Now if you do not know this, you have still to encounter Christ and let His words
dwell in your heart. They need to dwell, be contemplated and worked through, ideas
connecting with actions, feelings, past and present behaviour.

So a wrong lifestyle shows a wrong heart, which shows a lack of a walk.
The focus is on the heart and the walk, losing salvation is about loosing faith and hope,
and falling away which is demonstrated by a worldly walk.

Now once you start to believe I am evil, trying to trap you away from Christ and acceptance
no matter what, all these words will become the enemies. I understand that. But this is your
choice because all I am speaking is Jesus's words and intent.

Now I know all I am asked to do is bow the knee to Jesus and work out what His words mean
in my life. He is my Lord and Master, it is not for me to contradict His words, but learn their
meaning and put them into practice. I am nothing, He is the guide and I am the follower, I am
yoked to Him and His word.

Now if you believe this is wrong please show me, point out my failure or lack or sin, and I will
repent, correct and put into action that which the Lord calls me to.

 

[PeterJens]

I said you were a sinner because you lied about the way myself and others do things.

At last, I am a sinner because I have lied about you.
Where have I lied? What have I lied about?

Now you have showed me something wonderful. God is in control. The Lord is King.

His word is eternal.

Let it rest in your soul, day and night,

let it work through your thoughts and actions,

let it be the foundation of all that you are.

And yes you are right. The church needs to wake up, to claim its inheritance, to
know who is the Lord and master. And this inheritance is love. To speak words from
the heart into another heart, to know you are loved and cared for, to through insult,
hatred, bitteness, envy, to just say Amen, peace, God loves us all, and blesses us
each day with Christ and forgiveness, binding our weaknesses, healing our wounds and
making us whole.

Amen, what a glorious Lord we follow, Praise be unto His name and His son who overcame
through the Cross to bring us new life in Him and fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

EG my summary

EG takes what I write and turns it to his own ends. That is fine, but it is not empathetic.
One sentence will be used to say I am doing something terrible, lying, not answering, being
evil, some kind of terrible distortion.

But I do answer all I can. But a simple point like the lost coin, the lost sheep, the prodigal
son is not revolutionary, but obviously it is rejected. And this matters.

A believer who claims to follow Jesus but contradicts Jesus's teaching? Jesus is not Lord here.

Another simple point. Someone says praises should only go to God. Now I mean this to mean
positive words of encouragement, acknowledgement. I then quoted lots of encouraging words about
oneself, fellow believers, their faith etc. So praise of good things is important in the christian walk.
This opposes the suggestion only positive things should be said about God.

But I am wrong. Funny that because that is obviously, literally obviously not true.
You cannot have a discussion with integrity with people like this. It is just too fundamental and
obvious. It is like saying Jesus can be anything you like and what He says can be turned any
way you fancy, so I just say, Amen, that is your way, God bless, it stands as a testimony, I can
but speak the truth.

It is also called lying about Jesus and His word.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see a great comparison between Israel and us. And I don't think they never believed and trusted Him. How could you see what happened at the Red Sea and not believe and trust Him?

How can you witness Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, then crucify him?
How can you see Jesus feed 5000, then walk away from him, Well Jesus gave us that answer, You have seen But you do not believe (john 6)

so I personally have no issue believing people saw the red sea and still did not have faith in God. To me their actions (or inaction's) proved it.

ie, faith without works.

I think they allowed later circumstances that weren't pleasant to their flesh and comfort to then cause their hearts to become hard and untrusting. They allowed a root of bitterness to spring up in their hearts and became unbelieving/untrusting.(and an apostle warns us to see to it that no bitter root springs up to cause us to become hardened and mistrustful of God, and if we are mistrustful can't He cut us off just as He cut them off?) And so He was displeased with those who He had saved. So God saved men but nevertheless became later displeased at their lack of trust/faith. And we are warned to not let that happen to us.

for entering rest yes, For salvation. no. If we are faithless. he is faithful, he can not deny himself.

Moses used that argument when God wanted to kill all Israel and start over, Daniel used that argument when pleading for the children of Israel and the city of Jerusalem in Dan 9.



I am trying to share my own mind and heart with you. I could almost go along with everything you say, even more so than most others, but I think there is ONE thing that God is displeased with and it is unbelief. And I think it's why we are warned to take any area of unbelief seriously and to not let it spring up to cause us trouble, causing us to become like Israel, who He cut off because of their unbelief.[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I completely agree. Just think how much more we would all get out of the conversations if we were patient and tried to hear out differing views. I think it's good to keep in mind that none of us understand everything perfectly and smarter men/ women than us have debated these topics throughout the history of the church. ( This is just my personal view, but I really respect Christians on both sides of the Calvinist/ Arminian spectrum. I think there have been great saints in both camps).

I think you hit the nail on the head, And I also think that is what alot of us came in here to do To learn, To discuss, and to hopefully grow in knowledge, and understanding of what others believe,

I was brought up in a church where I was so engrained in tradition and things had to be this way or else. I was prety much lost as far as the kingdom of God went,, I wish I had been in a church where I was taught discipleship, body life, and more important to serve others than to be a biblical scholar.. It took years to break me of this, and I still struggle.

but when people do not wish to discuss, When you try to explain why you do not agree with them, And try to share what you believe, then they tear you down, Attack you. Belittle you. Slander you and start saying you believe a whole bunch of stuff you do not believe, You just refuse to admit what you do believe for whatever reason. and refuses any kind of disciplin from everyone. Then the whole process is destroyed. And the possibility of peaceful discussion in any thread is destroyed for the most part.

sadly, you witnessed that today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I agree. And the part that amazes me most is to find, with surprise often, that what I thought by my interpretation of what someone had been saying, was not actually what they meant! Or that I thought they were just wrong, wrong, wrong but came to find that they had actually thought more about it and struggled more with it and so were seeing something I had not BEEN seeing regarding it.

I take that back...the MOST amazing thing is to find that I thought someone was saying the complete opposite of what I was saying only to find out that we both were saying the same thing but in a different way!

I do not know what a Calvinist or Armenian believes but I still understand what you're saying because I was so shocked once when I read something by a 12th century catholic and sat stunned that they knew God and I saw darn well they did and yet I still thought there was great error in places (which they didn't talk in depth about as they did other things). I realized that perfect doctrine is not what makes someone my brother and it shocked me. But after I got over my shock I thought, well, yes, how could I expect or demand perfection in knowledge about God from them while at the same time being imperfect in it myself?!

I agree, perfect doctrine is not essential. There are many doctrines we may not know until we meet Jesus

But the correct gospel is essential. Paul said there is one Gospel. Anyone who teaches a different gospel. no matter how different, is to be accursed. Those are harsh words. Why is it so harsh? Because a different gospel is no gospel at all. and will lead people to hell.

I can disagree with people about how old the earth is, When the tribulation will be, How we should treat a brother in sin. and still call them my brother.

I have to pray for people who are following a false gospel. and trust that gospel too get them to heaven, Because they are lost and headed to hell.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can you witness Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, then crucify him?
How can you see Jesus feed 5000, then walk away from him, Well Jesus gave us that answer, You have seen But you do not believe (john 6)

so I personally have no issue believing people saw the red sea and still did not have faith in God. To me their actions (or inaction's) proved it.

ie, faith without works.



for entering rest yes, For salvation. no. If we are faithless. he is faithful, he can not deny himself.

Moses used that argument when God wanted to kill all Israel and start over, Daniel used that argument when pleading for the children of Israel and the city of Jerusalem in Dan 9.



I am trying to share my own mind and heart with you. I could almost go along with everything you say, even more so than most others, but I think there is ONE thing that God is displeased with and it is unbelief. And I think it's why we are warned to take any area of unbelief seriously and to not let it spring up to cause us trouble, causing us to become like Israel, who He cut off because of their unbelief.

wow how did I miss half your post..lol it is early morning.. I need COFFEE.. Sorry about that. off course to late to edit

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

How can you witness Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, then crucify him?
How can you see Jesus feed 5000, then walk away from him, Well Jesus gave us that answer, You have seen But you do not believe (john 6)

so I personally have no issue believing people saw the red sea and still did not have faith in God. To me their actions (or inaction's) proved it.

ie, faith without works.



for entering rest yes, For salvation. no. If we are faithless. he is faithful, he can not deny himself.

Yes, I see the way you are looking at it, which I didn't see before!
I have added my own experience in and so I read it with that in mind.
My own is experience has been trusting Him for the saving of me, and saying I trusted Him in ALL things, but then being shown by Him that I was lying about the ALL part. (By worrying about money, not being able to find a job, and even worry about my spiritual growth). There would be no worry over money if I believed and trusted Him when He said don't worry because God would see to me.

So my own experience in walking with Him, of what I am capable of, informs me too in how I see the verses. But both things are possible - it is possible to see great miracles and still not trust Him completely and it is possible to see great miracles and not even believe He exists...I have not had a problem with the latter but have had great problems with the former.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I see the way you are looking at it, which I didn't see before!
I have added my own experience in and so I read it with that in mind.
My own is experience has been trusting Him for the saving of me, and saying I trusted Him in ALL things, but then being shown by Him that I was lying about the ALL part. (By worrying about money, not being able to find a job, and even worry about my spiritual growth). There would be no worry over money if I believed and trusted Him when He said don't worry because God would see to me.

It just means your a child of God who wants to love and trust your daddy, but struggle with certain things, Something we all go through.. Oh if we could trust in all areas. what a great day that would be..

So my own experience in walking with Him, of what I am capable of, informs me too in how I see the verses. But both things are possible - it is possible to see great miracles and still not trust Him completely and it is possible to see great miracles and not even believe He exists...I have not had a problem with the latter but have had great problems with the former.

Yes, Thats is why I know you are my sister..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh I forgot something I was thinking about that post, EG. (And good morning, btw! )
If we are faithless, He is faithful - I have looked at that a little differently too...
I have considered different verses in light of that one, like that if we turn back we aren't fit for the kingdom and many others. So I see a tension between being saved and being cut off for mistrust/unbelief. I don't (or should I say, my mind doesn't) go to any of the things that others wonder about like...well, will I be cut off if I smoke? Or get a tattoo? Or if I am unfaithful in marriage? My mind always just goes to mistrust, because it's not a race of the outside of my cup and how other men see it to appear - it's a race of trust in Him and keeping in that trust, despite all the world, flesh and devil do to try to get me to mistrust by arguing with me. I keep thinking, well surely the Blood does not cover unbelief/mistrust because without that trust it is impossible to please Him and He gave me that trust/faith as a precious gift. And he who has (but doesn't use it and instead buries it or hides it or does not honor it) even what little he has will be taken from him. But if he does, he will be given more. Our parents teach us that with our first bike. It's a birthday gift, but if we don't take care of it, it's taken from us.

I don't know if that got across the difference in how I see it.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think you hit the nail on the head, And I also think that is what alot of us came in here to do To learn, To discuss, and to hopefully grow in knowledge, and understanding of what others believe,

I was brought up in a church where I was so engrained in tradition and things had to be this way or else. I was prety much lost as far as the kingdom of God went,, I wish I had been in a church where I was taught discipleship, body life, and more important to serve others than to be a biblical scholar.. It took years to break me of this, and I still struggle.

but when people do not wish to discuss, When you try to explain why you do not agree with them, And try to share what you believe, then they tear you down, Attack you. Belittle you. Slander you and start saying you believe a whole bunch of stuff you do not believe, You just refuse to admit what you do believe for whatever reason. and refuses any kind of disciplin from everyone. Then the whole process is destroyed. And the possibility of peaceful discussion in any thread is destroyed for the most part.

sadly, you witnessed that today.

Yes, she has hit a lot of nails on the head. All of her posts have been good - I read them all in every thread!
We go along with the destruction of a thread by insisting that we will not ignore the posts of those being nasty. I just start skipping over the posts of those who don't help build my faith or teach me anything useful to grow me in faith. And I concentrate on those that help to teach me what they have learned in their own walk because I want help, not arguing!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh I forgot something I was thinking about that post, EG. (And good morning, btw! )
If we are faithless, He is faithful - I have looked at that a little differently too...
I have considered different verses in light of that one, like that if we turn back we aren't fit for the kingdom and many others. So I see a tension between being saved and being cut off for mistrust/unbelief. I don't (or should I say, my mind doesn't) go to any of the things that others wonder about like...well, will I be cut off if I smoke? Or get a tattoo? Or if I am unfaithful in marriage? My mind always just goes to mistrust, because it's not a race of the outside of my cup and how other men see it to appear - it's a race of trust in Him and keeping in that trust, despite all the world, flesh and devil do to try to get me to mistrust by arguing with me. I keep thinking, well surely the Blood does not cover unbelief/mistrust because without that trust it is impossible to please Him and He gave me that trust/faith as a precious gift. And he who has (but doesn't use it and instead buries it or hides it or does not honor it) even what little he has will be taken from him. But if he does, he will be given more. Our parents teach us that with our first bike. It's a birthday gift, but if we don't take care of it, it's taken from us.

I don't know if that got across the difference in how I see it.

That is why it is so hard sometimes.. I think I see how you see it. I understand it to. (how can someone who does not trust God get to heaven)

I guess my only question would be, are we talking about lack of faith in certain areas of our life. Or lack in faith that God even exists, or Christ paid the debt for my sin,

then I have another thought, but will hold off until I find out what you mean there. because it may not even be related.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It just means your a child of God who wants to love and trust your daddy, but struggle with certain things, Something we all go through.. Oh if we could trust in all areas. what a great day that would be..



Yes, Thats is why I know you are my sister..

Yes, that would be a great day! I think He would be able to use me and trust me with great gifts for others on that day because I would not hinder Him then!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, she has hit a lot of nails on the head. All of her posts have been good - I read them all in every thread!
We go along with the destruction of a thread by insisting that we will not ignore the posts of those being nasty. I just start skipping over the posts of those who don't help build my faith or teach me anything useful to grow me in faith. And I concentrate on those that help to teach me what they have learned in their own walk because I want help, not arguing!

I try that, Notice I have not responded to anything a person said today, We will see how the day progresses..lol

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That is why it is so hard sometimes.. I think I see how you see it. I understand it to. (how can someone who does not trust God get to heaven)

I guess my only question would be, are we talking about lack of faith in certain areas of our life. Or lack in faith that God even exists, or Christ paid the debt for my sin,

then I have another thought, but will hold off until I find out what you mean there. because it may not even be related.

Even satan believes He exists. (Actually, satan knows darn well He exists). But will that save him? Satans problem is not believing God doesn't exist.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, that would be a great day! I think He would be able to use me and trust me with great gifts for others on that day because I would not hinder Him then!

You know its sad, I expected to get bashed because I called God daddy (I would not think of doing that as a young man, It was against the rules to lower God to that type. God is GOD!! lol

it is so freeing, knowing I was not given a spirit of fear. But I was adopted and God is my abba father (daddy)

Imagine as a child, when dad came home from work and we wanted so to please him, or to go to him when we hurt.

That is what God wants to be to us.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I try that, Notice I have not responded to anything a person said today, We will see how the day progresses..lol

Yes, I noticed and I was covered in goosebumps quite suddenly when I did and so I prayed for you that He would keep you strong and focused on Him and on us, who you can help and walk with.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Even satan believes He exists. (Actually, satan knows darn well He exists). But will that save him? Satans problem is not believing God doesn't exist.

Even demons believe and tremble. Amen..

Mental assent (Mere belief) never saved anyone, or got anyone to do one work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I noticed and I was covered in goosebumps quite suddenly when I did and so I prayed for you that He would keep you strong and focused on Him and on us, who you can help and walk with.

Thank you. I will never turn down prayers on my behalf. I need them

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You know its sad, I expected to get bashed because I called God daddy (I would not think of doing that as a young man, It was against the rules to lower God to that type. God is GOD!! lol

it is so freeing, knowing I was not given a spirit of fear. But I was adopted and God is my abba father (daddy)

Imagine as a child, when dad came home from work and we wanted so to please him, or to go to him when we hurt.

That is what God wants to be to us.

Yes. More goosebumps - the Holy Spirit telling me that what you have said is good and true.