Why do so many Christians hate Obama?

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C

Consumed

Guest
#81
i heard a sermon few years back on "the people we elect". The preacher was saying the people get the government they desrve as it is a spiritual reflection of the state of the country. :)



(you know whats really cool though, the more we debate Obama im sure some government agency(CIA_NSA whatever) goes thru all these posts looking for threats "to the national security", Just like to say to them, Hi guys, Jesus is the answer to all our woes in the world) lol;)
 
1

1Covenant

Guest
#83
Hate is a strong word especially when thrown around so loosely at "so many Christians".
Personally, I don't like his political goals, admirable as he makes them sound.
I am one of those he says he is wanting to help, but his new health policy will only hurt me.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#84
with all due respect to americans what is it with you guys being against universal health care for your citizens. A government for the people by the people? here in australia we pay 1.5% levy on our income for medicare, covers our populace whether you have or not. Of course their are waiting lists for non life threatening surgery and treatments, but we are all covered, all of us. You can still have private cover and claim tax deduction on them.So are we a communist/socialist type government? must be, we have SOCIAL security too.

close your eyes and think of the government of heaven'''' hmmm capitalist?? as if.
amazes me
with love,
 

dradus

Junior Member
Apr 4, 2009
2
0
0
#85
i don't think they really hate him personally but i think they hate his liberal positions.the positions that the leftest take will lead to the ruining of the nation,loss of freedom and more depenency on the state. europe has tried this and now they are in a mess i don't want to be like europe and the obama lefest are taking the country in that direction we left europe to be different free and independant not slaves to the state. As it stands now i will not allow my sons to serve in this country's military and i will not support obama's positions but i will pray for the man that he will change and serve good insteed of evil and socialism,communisim,leftist, are evil
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#86
with all due respect to americans what is it with you guys being against universal health care for your citizens. A government for the people by the people? here in australia we pay 1.5% levy on our income for medicare, covers our populace whether you have or not. Of course their are waiting lists for non life threatening surgery and treatments, but we are all covered, all of us. You can still have private cover and claim tax deduction on them.So are we a communist/socialist type government? must be, we have SOCIAL security too.

close your eyes and think of the government of heaven'''' hmmm capitalist?? as if.
amazes me
with love,

Actually the most efficient form of government is a kingdom. But that is only if the king is wise, truly loves his subjects, and is incorruptable. Unfortunately, such a kingdom is not possible with man as a ruler.

The founders and authors of our constitution understood this. They knew that power corrupts even the best of men. That is why they invisioned a government that would be limited in scope, with most power being left to the various states and local governments, who were closest to the people, and therefore the most accountable to them. Corruption is not a matter of democratic or republican parties, but is a result of the size and scope of the federal government which is no longer accountable to the people. And whereas in earlier times, corruption may have been limited by politicians fear of God, this has ceased to be a factor as well. And now, people who will admit that the federal government has completely ruined Medicare and Social Security, has expelled God from schools that turn out students who are illiterate, and can't even run the railroads and post office efficiently, wish to expand it even more by adding one sixth of our economy to their whims and fancy. Why? Because we have an electorate who have been indoctrinated to think emotionally, instead of educating themselves to use reason and facts when looking for solutions to problems.
 
1

1Covenant

Guest
#87
I'm not sure why other countries want America to be like them. I am happy in a country that has the freedom to go to the doctor when I think I should and not have to be taxed for such things or have to rely on the govt, or be placed on a wait list.
I have a decent size family and make less than $7000 per family member. I qualify for welfare and my children qualify for cheap state funded children health programs, but I exercise biblical financial practices which have enabled me to buy a large house with several acres, have no car payments, I don't make use of the state childrens programs, I pay my own way with health care, and care for a child with special health needs. Under this new plan it will drive me to be DEPENDENT on more of these programs and their intrusion into my life with all their opinions. This is not freedom but forced dependency.
As of right now before this plan takes affect, I love that I can pursue my son's mysterious illness. I am glad I have a relationship with a doctor who works for me where I can be honest about my concerns and not worry about being judged by a doctor who works for the govt and by a whole bureaucratic system.
If my story is not good enough, lets look at England where recently a child over there had to have her leg amputated after the mother pursued the doctors in that system for months over her daughters leg pains which they told her were only growing pains. She signed up for a waiting list to get more tests and couldn't get in any faster because of her doctors opinion. She eventually lied so that the emergency room would take her and only then did the doctors discover too late that there was a real problem.
Beyond that I know several folks from England who live in America now because they can't afford England without both of the parents working. You have to have two incomes in a household because the taxes are so great.
The bottom line is that the America I love and I wanted my children to know is slipping away with policies like the most recent health bill.

Respectfully submitted to all dissenting views.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#88
Actually the most efficient form of government is a kingdom. But that is only if the king is wise, truly loves his subjects, and is incorruptable. Unfortunately, such a kingdom is not possible with man as a ruler.

The founders and authors of our constitution understood this. They knew that power corrupts even the best of men. That is why they invisioned a government that would be limited in scope, with most power being left to the various states and local governments, who were closest to the people, and therefore the most accountable to them. Corruption is not a matter of democratic or republican parties, but is a result of the size and scope of the federal government which is no longer accountable to the people. And whereas in earlier times, corruption may have been limited by politicians fear of God, this has ceased to be a factor as well. And now, people who will admit that the federal government has completely ruined Medicare and Social Security, has expelled God from schools that turn out students who are illiterate, and can't even run the railroads and post office efficiently, wish to expand it even more by adding one sixth of our economy to their whims and fancy. Why? Because we have an electorate who have been indoctrinated to think emotionally, instead of educating themselves to use reason and facts when looking for solutions to problems.
still, people get the government they deserve, true to say the rot set in with the removal of pray from schools in the 60's, americas social woes only escalated, however at the same time fought tooth and nail against blacks being accepted as "all men are equal" hence assination abe lincoln then it took another, 100yrs before any real change came and then only after much resistance from the powers to be, "i have a dream"even got Martin Luther KING killed.. From a person who is not american the "freedom and liberty for all" just a public relations exercise. lol

its not just obama, its the american political system itself that is corrupt.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#89
still, people get the government they deserve, true to say the rot set in with the removal of pray from schools in the 60's, americas social woes only escalated, however at the same time fought tooth and nail against blacks being accepted as "all men are equal" hence assination abe lincoln then it took another, 100yrs before any real change came and then only after much resistance from the powers to be, "i have a dream"even got Martin Luther KING killed.. From a person who is not american the "freedom and liberty for all" just a public relations exercise. lol

its not just obama, its the american political system itself that is corrupt.
All man made governments are corrupt, including yours. Governments are a necessary evil at best. That is why their size and scope should be limited and kept as small as possible.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#90
All man made governments are corrupt, including yours. Governments are a necessary evil at best. That is why their size and scope should be limited and kept as small as possible.

amen bro i agree however even if governments were smaller, nothing would change, they'll still be corrupt, over govern everyone, tax the max out of us, keep us in some form of bondage, freedom??, no one is free, one of two masters one serves, freedom as per say is a myth, only true freedom comes from christ to be redeemed into His kingdom, where love mercy and justice prevails, we are free to choose though which kingdom......
.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#91
amen bro i agree however even if governments were smaller, nothing would change, they'll still be corrupt, over govern everyone, tax the max out of us, keep us in some form of bondage, freedom??, no one is free, one of two masters one serves, freedom as per say is a myth, only true freedom comes from christ to be redeemed into His kingdom, where love mercy and justice prevails, we are free to choose though which kingdom......
.
I disagree. When governing is done on the local level, the elected officials are in contact with their constituents on a daily basis. As such, every decision you make will be challenged immediately on a personal level. It will be much more difficult to not "walk the walk" when you are facing the electorate each and every day. Those in Washington, are many miles from their electors, and are thus insulated to a certain extent from accountability. They begin to lose a sense of dependence on, and knowledge of the needs of their citizens.
 
W

Wootie

Guest
#92
In the end times there will be so many turning against others. That is just part of it, making it a realization of things to come.
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
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#93
I have to disagree with the idea that local or smaller governments are better or less corrupt. In Australia each town or region has a local council, then there are state governments then federal governments. The local councils are the ones where money is being wasted most of all. It is also the level where they have stupid laws and corrupt parking infringement officers, for example.
 
G

giantone

Guest
#94
I'd like to know why so many Christians like Obama, no rely i'd like to know. Just the abortion issue alone its a crime against humanity. by saying so many Christians 1 is too many
 

polarguyinak

Moderator
Staff member
Jan 30, 2009
145
10
18
#95
I want to share with you something that the local leader in my pricinct emailed to me today. This is not a forward, but a passionate statement which summarizes the view held by myself and other lovers of Christ, freedom, and this great republic.

Great summary by Erik Burney:


The issue of nationalized healthcare is not about providing improved access to healthcare, it is about the accumulation of power on the Left in the name of providing improved access to healthcare.
Power; or more specifically the accumulation of it in any one place, person or office is precisely the thing that our Founders sought to prevent when they created our American form of republican government. Our Constitution affirms that rights are endowed to us by God and secured in our earthly lives by government. Accordingly our Constitution asserts that our government derives its just power from the consent of the governed and yet President Obama’s recent legislative victory, the passage of the “Healthcare” bill stands in naked contradiction to all of that! It is an insult to the principles of limited government so passionately and clearly argued for by the great minds that gave rise to this nation, and to the notion of consent. All through the debates in Congress, and at the moment it was signed into law, public opinion was clearly and solidly against this law. And yet it passed…forced upon us by Leftist ideologues hiding behind the label Democrat. This legal monstrosity was argued for by President Obama, by Speaker Pelosi, and by the Majority Leaders in both houses as necessary. Necessary; to combat the abuses of greedy insurance and pharmaceutical companies; to provide absolute coverage to all…"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
“Obamacare” is in my opinion the single greatest usurpation of liberty in our nation’s history. Under this new law government seizes private industry representing approximately 1/6th of our domestic economy. It funds things that the American people said they clearly did not want and President Obama said he would not do, such as fund abortion on demand or provide free medical care to illegal aliens. Amongst a host of earmarks that repay powerful political cronies, ultimately We the People…will be forced by our government to purchase insurance from our government. We will be forced: words that remind us of George Washington’s opinion of government. “Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
Many of our countrymen on the Left see this as a good thing which I find ironic if not outright hypocritical. Is it not our Liberal friends who are the first to wax apoplectic about freedom and “Power to the people”? Or do those concepts only apply to abortion and flag burning? What I find confounding is how a group of ideologically aligned people, otherwise so entrenched in the idea of “choice” could then be so enthusiastic about legislation that specifically eliminates it.
The same voices who screamed in outrage over the Patriot Act now hold silent. Why? Could it be that the Patriot act targeted America’s enemies? Given the body of their collected works, their public speeches and their legislative initiatives a compelling case can be made that the Left is invested in the defeat and humbling of America. The Patriot Act, however flawed in some provisions, was rooted in protecting this country and therefore anathema to liberal political goals whereas Healthcare Reform gives the Left, ostensibly via the government, control over who receives medical care and who does not. The ancient Spartans had a similar policy…eugenics.
More and bigger government is not simply a bad idea on constitutional grounds. There are practical implications here as well. The first being that the government is largely inept. The Post Office is moving to eliminate Saturday delivery to cut costs. How then, is the government going to deliver timely, robust medical care if it can’t figure out how to deliver the mail efficiently? On this point Davey Crockett said it best “Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have”.
As Republicans we have both a patriotic and moral obligation to engage our elected leaders and exhort them to uphold their oaths, or throw them out of power…no matter what party they lay claim to. We are the party of Abraham Lincoln, of civic duty, of personal liberty and personal responsibility. We see America as the world’s greatest bastion of hope for all things that are good and humane. Sadly, we live in a time when our President does not share those views. So as lawful citizens of a free republic, we must exercise our rights of speech and redress of government. I encourage all of my fellow District 31 Republicans to take the time to write our governor, state representatives, and congressional delegation expressing your feelings on this monumental, egregiously unconstitutional power grab.
Lastly, I leave you with two quotes on the subject of the People, the Constitution, and the government.
The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government." Patrick Henry

"We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution." Abraham Lincoln
Submitted 30 March 2010
Erik Burney
31-910 Precinct Chair
Anchorage, Alaska, USA
 
Jan 8, 2009
7,576
23
0
#96
I don't understand why Amercan's see the national health care in the US bad. Considering that the US is the only free democratic country in the world that does not have it. I think all the hype and rhetoric about loss of freedoms and liberty is just that. What exactly is unliberterian and un-American about giving free or lower cost health care to those who cannot afford it?
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#97
I want to share with you something that the local leader in my pricinct emailed to me today. This is not a forward, but a passionate statement which summarizes the view held by myself and other lovers of Christ, freedom, and this great republic.

Great summary by Erik Burney:


The issue of nationalized healthcare is not about providing improved access to healthcare, it is about the accumulation of power on the Left in the name of providing improved access to healthcare.
Power; or more specifically the accumulation of it in any one place, person or office is precisely the thing that our Founders sought to prevent when they created our American form of republican government. Our Constitution affirms that rights are endowed to us by God and secured in our earthly lives by government. Accordingly our Constitution asserts that our government derives its just power from the consent of the governed and yet President Obama’s recent legislative victory, the passage of the “Healthcare” bill stands in naked contradiction to all of that! It is an insult to the principles of limited government so passionately and clearly argued for by the great minds that gave rise to this nation, and to the notion of consent. All through the debates in Congress, and at the moment it was signed into law, public opinion was clearly and solidly against this law. And yet it passed…forced upon us by Leftist ideologues hiding behind the label Democrat. This legal monstrosity was argued for by President Obama, by Speaker Pelosi, and by the Majority Leaders in both houses as necessary. Necessary; to combat the abuses of greedy insurance and pharmaceutical companies; to provide absolute coverage to all…"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt
“Obamacare” is in my opinion the single greatest usurpation of liberty in our nation’s history. Under this new law government seizes private industry representing approximately 1/6th of our domestic economy. It funds things that the American people said they clearly did not want and President Obama said he would not do, such as fund abortion on demand or provide free medical care to illegal aliens. Amongst a host of earmarks that repay powerful political cronies, ultimately We the People…will be forced by our government to purchase insurance from our government. We will be forced: words that remind us of George Washington’s opinion of government. “Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
Many of our countrymen on the Left see this as a good thing which I find ironic if not outright hypocritical. Is it not our Liberal friends who are the first to wax apoplectic about freedom and “Power to the people”? Or do those concepts only apply to abortion and flag burning? What I find confounding is how a group of ideologically aligned people, otherwise so entrenched in the idea of “choice” could then be so enthusiastic about legislation that specifically eliminates it.
The same voices who screamed in outrage over the Patriot Act now hold silent. Why? Could it be that the Patriot act targeted America’s enemies? Given the body of their collected works, their public speeches and their legislative initiatives a compelling case can be made that the Left is invested in the defeat and humbling of America. The Patriot Act, however flawed in some provisions, was rooted in protecting this country and therefore anathema to liberal political goals whereas Healthcare Reform gives the Left, ostensibly via the government, control over who receives medical care and who does not. The ancient Spartans had a similar policy…eugenics.
More and bigger government is not simply a bad idea on constitutional grounds. There are practical implications here as well. The first being that the government is largely inept. The Post Office is moving to eliminate Saturday delivery to cut costs. How then, is the government going to deliver timely, robust medical care if it can’t figure out how to deliver the mail efficiently? On this point Davey Crockett said it best “Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have”.
As Republicans we have both a patriotic and moral obligation to engage our elected leaders and exhort them to uphold their oaths, or throw them out of power…no matter what party they lay claim to. We are the party of Abraham Lincoln, of civic duty, of personal liberty and personal responsibility. We see America as the world’s greatest bastion of hope for all things that are good and humane. Sadly, we live in a time when our President does not share those views. So as lawful citizens of a free republic, we must exercise our rights of speech and redress of government. I encourage all of my fellow District 31 Republicans to take the time to write our governor, state representatives, and congressional delegation expressing your feelings on this monumental, egregiously unconstitutional power grab.
Lastly, I leave you with two quotes on the subject of the People, the Constitution, and the government.
The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government." Patrick Henry

"We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution." Abraham Lincoln
Submitted 30 March 2010
Erik Burney
31-910 Precinct Chair
Anchorage, Alaska, USA

Amazes me is when Jesus walked here on earth He didnt walk to Rome to confront Ceasar, nor go to Herod to confront him for being aligned to Rome, just to the church leaders for misrepresenting God. Regardless we are to just pray for our leaders of the land and more importantly as it states not to be entangled with world affairs, we lose our sight of the cross.That being said, Jesus told us thru revelations its just going to get worse, yet, as with Jeremiahs day, they cried out that all was good, prosperity assured, how wrong were they.
 
1

1Covenant

Guest
#98
I don't understand why Amercan's see the national health care in the US bad. Considering that the US is the only free democratic country in the world that does not have it. I think all the hype and rhetoric about loss of freedoms and liberty is just that. What exactly is unliberterian and un-American about giving free or lower cost health care to those who cannot afford it?
It is a loss of Freedom!

This is the latest reduction in choice and opportunity and it won't be the last. More and more we find it harder to live a life free of BIG BROTHER!

I'll give an example in just a second but let me first say that this bill was a bad idea because it doesn't really care about healthcare. This bill is about power and ideology.
If you want to talk about reducing health care costs then they should have banned health insurance for anything other than major medical or emergency care. Health insurance for everyday use is an abuse.

I am on a health insurance committee and I know that the rates go up for a group when the groups claims go above 79% of what the Insurance company has brought in from that group in premiums. That 21% is the company's overhead and profit margin. Now consider that labor is the most expensive aspect of overhead and that doctor's offices have to hire a minimum of 2 folks just to chase insurance companies and handle the new HIPPA privacy policies which exist primarily because of the transfer of information from doctors to insurance companies. By my calculation 30-40% of the average person and employer premiums are going toward something other than actual health care. Now the govt comes in and is going to create another piece in the middle of that and save everybody money...oh wait except for the taxes that we will all feel trickle down, just as recently displayed when five of Americas largest companies announced that their retirees would likely be kicked off private insurance and onto the inferior Federal programs because of the estimated costs from this bill for the companies.

On a side note the bill didn't even help with litigation reforms which everyone agrees would help health care costs go down.

To make matters worse and to give an example of a loss of choice and opportunity, some people in America have found a way to provide cheaper and better health care that will now be illegal under the new bill.
Some doctors refuse to take health insurance currently and save on the labor overhead and simply charge a small fee (similar to a co-pay) for a visit. They have more time with their patients because they aren't filling out insurance paperwork. They don't have the vast HIPPA issues because they aren't sending information to insurance company's on every visit. They don't have to meet with Insurance companies or association to be in their group. The list goes on.
Then there is the business fellow in Florida who solved his health care problems for his employees that is not considered health care under this bill. For the sake of time I won't describe that one, just type in "hotel-mogul-starts-own-health-care-system" in google and read about it. Smaller companies could have banded together and done this as well and this would also work for the migrant worker as well, which this bill does not address.
This last example is one that I have been trying to get my employer to consider, because the savings for everyone would be huge and would actually enable the company to provide everyday health care, major medical/emergency insurance, while also having new funds available for new hires. Talk about a stimulus plan.

The govt is not interested in helping the poor, even if people are. Govts are more concerned with their budgets, stabilizing and satiating the fickled public and thereby what new and wonderful thing "great" politicians can do for its people. Surfdom survives!

We are becoming a nanny state like the rest of the world and this bill gives them one more reason to reach into our lives and exercise control. If we are not eating healthy enough, that's a problem for the govt's bottom line and I have already heard discussion of fines and taxes for such things. As if they aren't fickled enough from one moment to the next about whats good or bad for you to eat or do. At the end of the day the govt has to balance its budget and it will do it by removing choice and opportunity (wait lists, etc) from current list of health care freedoms.

We are a country established people wishing to escape religious tyranny in order to worship the way they saw fit, and also to live as they saw fit. And There were many kinds of people, not just Christians who came to this country just to live as their consciences dictated not as govts dictated. Its in our collective blood and culture to desire choice and opportunity which this bill removes.

There were better options and our government was tired of listening and just wanted to do something. I don't know if you watched the 8 hour health care summit saga but I did, and they as much said that. They said, "We have talked and debated for a year and its time to act," and to that most people would say no sir time should not be the dictator of actions in a government of the people, by the people, for the people - the people are the dictator of actions; but time was the dictator in this case because of political expediency for politicians.
 
Aug 16, 2009
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#99
I am on a health insurance committee and I know that the rates go up for a group when the groups claims go above 79% of what the Insurance company has brought in from that group in premiums. That 21% is the company's overhead and profit margin. Now consider that labor is the most expensive aspect of overhead and that doctor's offices have to hire a minimum of 2 folks just to chase insurance companies and handle the new HIPPA privacy policies which exist primarily because of the transfer of information from doctors to insurance companies. By my calculation 30-40% of the average person and employer premiums are going toward something other than actual health care.
Hi 1Covenant,

If your facts (as stated in the above quote) are correct - as I believe them to be, I am puzzled as to why you are opposed to a government-run single payer health care plan.
To begin with, here in the USA, government-operated Medicare and VA health care plans operate on a 3 percent overhead basis - as opposed to the 21% overhead for private plans (like Aetna Health Insurance) that you yourself acknowledge in your post.

Again, you are correct in stating that the 21% also includes the private insurance company's profit margin. IMHO, this profit margin borders on the unconscionable, if not criminal. Did you know that the annual salary for the CEO of Aetna Insurance is $135 million dollars? Not including bonus? Let me write that out for you in numbers...perhaps it will sink in in such a manner that you can comprehend it better: $135,000,000. That's a fairly nice piece of change, eh what?

Isn't it rather un-Christian for a health insurance company to realize such huge windfall profits - derived from the health misfortunes of others?
The immorality of insurance companies' behavior is quite apparent to all: denying coverage to those with pre-existing conditions and then canceling coverage when a premium-paying client becomes ill. This is banditry in the truest sense of the word. And speaking of the Word, WWJS* about this?

KayCee

*WWJS = What would Jesus say?
 
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1Covenant

Guest
If your facts (as stated in the above quote) are correct - as I believe them to be, I am puzzled as to why you are opposed to a government-run single payer health care plan.
To begin with, here in the USA, government-operated Medicare and VA health care plans operate on a 3 percent overhead basis - as opposed to the 21% overhead for private plans (like Aetna Health Insurance) that you yourself acknowledge in your post.
Hi Kaycee
With respect, but a little bewilderment...are you offering up Medicare and the VA system as a well run machine?
My father, brother, brother-in-law, Grandfather, and close relatives have experience in the not so great VA system and the horrible VA hospital which was in the news recently is not so different from many VA hospitals. And yes the VA is a great example of why I don't want a single pay system.
As far as Medicare goes (the VA has the same problems), Politicians are continually having money woes with this program. It wasn't that long ago that they cut some of the drug benefits for the program. At the end of the day if the government is paying the bill then they decide! In a government run program, if you are in the minority opinion (meaning too few to affect an election) of how they ought to provide for your helath care, then tough you have to submit to the majority, where as right now you can do what you think is best with your money for your health care without worry about government approvals or wait lists.
Also, 3% of an extremely wasteful system is not impressive.
See my % example below
Again, you are correct in stating that the 21% also includes the private insurance company's profit margin. IMHO, this profit margin borders on the unconscionable, if not criminal. Did you know that the annual salary for the CEO of Aetna Insurance is $135 million dollars? Not including bonus? Let me write that out for you in numbers...perhaps it will sink in in such a manner that you can comprehend it better: $135,000,000. That's a fairly nice piece of change, eh what?
Interesting. Take that number and now and add (+) all the government employees that will be hired as an additional layer of government health care oversight instituted by this bill and see if you get a savings for the American public.
Even Take your single pay system and compare it to the industry as a whole currently. By definition the insurance company exists to make money and not to employ people. That means that they don't make a habit of employing people for the sake of employment. The tighter run they are the more money they make. Not true for the government where for example the military pays for $10K toilet seats and there is culture of spend it or lose it in the government. I know because I worked for the Navy and people did not work "hard" and redundant positions abounded. They tried hard to spend every penny they were given so that it wasn't taken away in next year's budget. And when I was let go for budget reasons during the first few years of Clinton's first term, I was hired back through a contractor to do the same job in the same office for $5 more an hour with better benefits. Therefore, it stands to reason that government run health care will hire more people than it is needed to do the job or contract out to people for even more than they would pay in-house and will in general do what they do in every other govt run program which is run it poorly. So lets look at your 3% number.
If private companies can run a program for $3 Billion and earn lots of cash with 21% overhead and profit margins which they put back into the economy in the form of people's salaries and the purchase of Goods which the govt taxes
Compared to
a naturally wasteful Government that will run the same program for $6 Billion and earn only 3% profit

I can't see the benefit and I can see only the downside which is evident in every foreign country's health care system(wait lists, rationing, etc.). In fact, because you have brought that much of the economy into the Government, the govt's tax base is less, which is the problem that some European countries are having because there govt costs/debts are too high a percentage of their GDP. A government can't pay itself and then sell its debt to other countries. That is like you going to bank and asking for a loan and saying that you don't have any income but hey "I'm good for it."


Isn't it rather un-Christian for a health insurance company to realize such huge windfall profits - derived from the health misfortunes of others?
First it is not un-Christian to make a lot of money. It can be un-Christian how you make the money or what you do with it.
It is un-Christian for people to support Govt health care to free their conscience and excuse their own lack of action on behalf of the needy. I'm not saying you, but I have run into this reasoning that this single pay system will somehow bring biblical care for the poor. Sin will not go away. The problems that exist in the private sector will be present in different forms in the govt health system. The only difference is that when the govt runs it, you will have even less ability for redress of your complaints as is seen throughout the govt run systems.

The immorality of insurance companies' behavior is quite apparent to all: denying coverage to those with pre-existing conditions and then canceling coverage when a premium-paying client becomes ill. This is banditry in the truest sense of the word. And speaking of the Word, WWJS* about this?
I think Jesus would tell you, feed my sheep. Don't bury your talent/convictions, go out and start an insurance business that cares for these people, or petition every board member of every insurance company out there. If this is on someone's heart it would be a sin to ignore the conviction and I don't think that to get the govt to fulfill their conviction for them is a biblical model.

I have great appreciation for lively debate and I hope you will not take my difference of opinion as judgement on anyone's else's decision. We all have to answer to Christ and he is the only perfect judge. For the sake of unity.
 
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