Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[ZacharyB]

.
If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return Christ, you will see …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming …
at the end of the tribulation … and NOT at some secret return before His second coming!
Unfortunately, it would take too many pages to fully quote all of the Scripture references.

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first
Parallel passages are in Mark 13 and Luke 21.

There are only 2 Resurrections • But the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches 3 resurrections
John 5:28-29 … Luke 14:14 … Acts 24:15 … Daniel 12:2 ↓
• These 4 passages clearly state that there are 2 resurrections, which are:
the resurrection of life for the good & just, and the resurrection of condemnation for the evil & unjust.
Revelation 20:4-12 ↓
• This passage clearly states that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years.
The first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) is for Christians -- non-Christians are raised 1000 years later.
Now, exactly WHEN the resurrection of Christians occurs is shown below …

The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST trumpet
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 … 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ↓
• These 2 passages describe the resurrection of ALL dead Christians. They also say Christians
who are alive on earth will be “changed” and will meet the resurrected ones “in the clouds”.
And 1 Corinthians 15:51 says this will happen at the LAST trumpet.
• The pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that Christians living in the last generation
will be changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.
If the dead Christians are resurrected at the same time as the pre-tribulation rapture,
how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?
It’s impossible … because there are only 2 resurrections: 1 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.
However, pre-tribulation doctrine falsely teaches 3 resurrections: 2 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.

The firstfruits • Only Jesus is the firstfruits
1 Corinthians 15:23 ↓
• This verse clearly states that Jesus is the “firstfruits” …
but the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that the raptured saints are the firstfruits!
Also, “the dead in Christ” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.
So, how could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?
Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
There will be Christians alive at that time.
But, Scripture says ALL dead Christians will be resurrected from the dead, and then …
the Christians who are alive shall be caught up together with them (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

The Last Day • Raptured on the last day before the tribulation starts? … lol
John 6:39-54 ↓
• 4 times in these verses, Jesus clearly says the dead believers will be raised up on the LAST day!
How can the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine have the dead in Christ rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
followed by a rapture … if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day?
Just how many occurrences of “the last day” are there?
• All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of the tribulation
and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.
In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period,
with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.
• The pre-trib doctrine says the dead Christians meet the Lord in the air (joined with the living Christians)
before the tribulation period … unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24:21-31 above
• The pre-trib doctrine says “His elect” is some group of Jewish believers! But, this is absurd because:
-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel”, and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)
-- writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)

The Days of Noah • They were similar to the times we are in today
Matthew 24:37-44 … Luke 17:26-37 … Matthew 24:28 ↓
• In Matthew 24:39, the flood “took” all of the non-believers away (destroying them) …
and in Luke 17:37, the disciples asked, “Where, Lord?” … Where were half of all these people “taken”?
They were not asking where half of these people were “left”. His response was like:
“Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather together.”
Those “taken” are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles (vultures) circle overhead.
“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered together.” (Matthew 24:28)
• Matthew 24:39 says that immediately preceding the flood, almost no one had any idea that
destruction was about to fall upon them … and “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”
Most church people are not expecting danger; they are expecting to be raptured;
they are very similar to those who “did not know until the flood came and took them all away”.
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be “taken” away … will be taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah (and his family) who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and great tribulation.
Some today who do “know”… will remain (be “left”), while the others are “taken” to be destroyed.
• Yes, many believers do “not know” that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough
… because “the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT expect” (Matthew 24:44).
Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster, but many believers today
do “not know” that they will soon be facing incredible Christian persecution (even unto death).
Christians who refuse to take the mark of the beast will suffer: “no one may buy or sell” (Rev 13:17).

Coming upon you as a thief • This is strictly a negative event, not a positive one
Revelation 3:2-3 ↓
• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return.
This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 ↓
• Paul is writing to those who KNOW the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.
This group is “all sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thessalonians 5:5).
But, the other group who is of the night and darkness, exclaims: “Peace and safety!”,
and then sudden destruction will come upon them, and they shall not escape.
• Many NT verses referring to Christ’s coming as a thief refer to His second coming at the
end of the tribulation period … because they talk about the last trumpet, the last day, etc.!
Matthew 24:43 … John 10:10 … 2 Peter 3:10 … 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 ↓
• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one.
Example: In 2 Peter 3:10, the Day of the Lord comes as a thief to destroy the heavens and the earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 ↓
• The above clearly says Christians will be on the earth when “this Day” arrives!
And some of them will be prepared for “this Day” because they have been watching and waiting.
Some Spirit-filled teachers are saying today: Only “the overcomers” / “the remnant” will escape
the terrible Day of the Lord (when Jesus returns) because they will be raptured just before it comes.
Revelation 16:15 ↓
• In this verse (and in Revelation 3:2-3) … believers are told to watch, and Christ is referred to as a thief.
At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, and all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least 6 of the 7
vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle of Armageddon,
Christ says: “Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief,
and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!

The Day of the Lord • The Day of God’s wrath is at Jesus’ second coming
at the end of the tribulation!
1 Thessalonians 5:2 … 2 Peter 3:10 ↓
• Here, both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord.
• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the 2nd coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
• All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-trib return of Jesus Christ.
2 great examples are Isaiah 13:6-9 and 2 Peter 3:10.
Matthew 24:29-31 ↓
• The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord at the very end of the tribulation.
However, some believe the Day of the Lord actually begins at some fictional pre-tribulation rapture!
2 Peter 3:10 ↓
• There is no way this verse about the Day of the Lord can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

SUMMARY FROM SCRIPTURE re: debunking the pre-tribulation rapture
• Matthew 24 says the elect will be gathered AFTER the tribulation period
• There are 2 resurrections: first the good and just, then (1000 years later) the evil and unjust
• The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST TRUMPET on the LAST DAY
• Jesus coming as a thief in the night is strictly a NEGATIVE EVENT, not a positive one
• The Day of the Lord is the Day of God’s wrath at Jesus’ second coming at the end of the tribulation
Even though Scripture teaches otherwise … Satan’s relatively new and
extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains popular!

The worst mistake anyone can make is to assume that the pre-tribulation rapture is correct.
This disastrous error can mean the loss of BOTH of one’s lives … physical and spiritual both.
Satan is the most incredible liar and deceiver, so trust in what the Scriptures clearly say.
A lot of money has been made by ticking the ears of unsuspecting believers in the church.
But, you are responsible before Almighty God to teach the Truth about this false doctrine.

 

[wolfwint]

Hi, ZacharyB,

"The worst mistake anyone can make is to assume that the pre-tribulation rapture is correct.
This disastrous error can mean the loss of BOTH of one’s lives … physical and spiritual both.
Satan is the most incredible liar and deceiver, so trust in what the Scriptures clearly say.
A lot of money has been made by ticking the ears of unsuspecting believers in the church.
But, you are responsible before Almighty God to teach the Truth about this false doctrine."

I believe in pretrib Rapture!!! This is right ore wrong the future will show

 

[wolfwint]

PS: To discuss about this matter is according my meaning useless. Because you can find scripture for to defend the
position I believe, too. And in cc you will find threats for that.

 

[FlSnookman7]

The worst mistake anyone can make is to assume that the pre-tribulation rapture is correct.
This disastrous error can mean the loss of BOTH of one’s lives … physical and spiritual both.
Satan is the most incredible liar and deceiver, so trust in what the Scriptures clearly say.
A lot of money has been made by ticking the ears of unsuspecting believers in the church.
But, you are responsible before Almighty God to teach the Truth about this false doctrine.


A far worse mistake is to go your whole life believing you can somehow lose your salvation instead of trusting what Jesus said.

 

[Stephen63]

The good news is if the pre-trib rapture is wrong, serious christians will still see the other signs of the tribulation & the Antichrist & still prepare themselves.

I do have a question, though. Not all "tribulation saints" will die, neither those who live for Christ during the millenial reign. So, what happens to them? What will happen to the millenial converts who stand for Christ?

 

[Bookends]

.
If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return Christ, you will see …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming …
at the end of the tribulation … and NOT at some secret return before His second coming!
Unfortunately, it would take too many pages to fully quote all of the Scripture references.

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first
Parallel passages are in Mark 13 and Luke 21.

There are only 2 Resurrections • But the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches 3 resurrections
John 5:28-29 … Luke 14:14 … Acts 24:15 … Daniel 12:2 ↓
• These 4 passages clearly state that there are 2 resurrections, which are:
the resurrection of life for the good & just, and the resurrection of condemnation for the evil & unjust.
Revelation 20:4-12 ↓
• This passage clearly states that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years.
The first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) is for Christians -- non-Christians are raised 1000 years later.
Now, exactly WHEN the resurrection of Christians occurs is shown below …

The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST trumpet
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 … 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ↓
• These 2 passages describe the resurrection of ALL dead Christians. They also say Christians
who are alive on earth will be “changed” and will meet the resurrected ones “in the clouds”.
And 1 Corinthians 15:51 says this will happen at the LAST trumpet.
• The pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that Christians living in the last generation
will be changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.
If the dead Christians are resurrected at the same time as the pre-tribulation rapture,
how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?
It’s impossible … because there are only 2 resurrections: 1 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.
However, pre-tribulation doctrine falsely teaches 3 resurrections: 2 for Christians, and 1 for the lost.

The firstfruits • Only Jesus is the firstfruits
1 Corinthians 15:23 ↓
• This verse clearly states that Jesus is the “firstfruits” …
but the pre-tribulation doctrine teaches that the raptured saints are the firstfruits!
Also, “the dead in Christ” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.
So, how could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?
Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
There will be Christians alive at that time.
But, Scripture says ALL dead Christians will be resurrected from the dead, and then …
the Christians who are alive shall be caught up together with them (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

The Last Day • Raptured on the last day before the tribulation starts? … lol
John 6:39-54 ↓
• 4 times in these verses, Jesus clearly says the dead believers will be raised up on the LAST day!
How can the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine have the dead in Christ rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
followed by a rapture … if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day?
Just how many occurrences of “the last day” are there?
• All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of the tribulation
and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.
In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period,
with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.
• The pre-trib doctrine says the dead Christians meet the Lord in the air (joined with the living Christians)
before the tribulation period … unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24:21-31 above
• The pre-trib doctrine says “His elect” is some group of Jewish believers! But, this is absurd because:
-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel”, and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)
-- writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)

The Days of Noah • They were similar to the times we are in today
Matthew 24:37-44 … Luke 17:26-37 … Matthew 24:28 ↓
• In Matthew 24:39, the flood “took” all of the non-believers away (destroying them) …
and in Luke 17:37, the disciples asked, “Where, Lord?” … Where were half of all these people “taken”?
They were not asking where half of these people were “left”. His response was like:
“Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather together.”
Those “taken” are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles (vultures) circle overhead.
“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered together.” (Matthew 24:28)
• Matthew 24:39 says that immediately preceding the flood, almost no one had any idea that
destruction was about to fall upon them … and “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”
Most church people are not expecting danger; they are expecting to be raptured;
they are very similar to those who “did not know until the flood came and took them all away”.
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be “taken” away … will be taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah (and his family) who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and great tribulation.
Some today who do “know”… will remain (be “left”), while the others are “taken” to be destroyed.
• Yes, many believers do “not know” that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough
… because “the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT expect” (Matthew 24:44).
Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster, but many believers today
do “not know” that they will soon be facing incredible Christian persecution (even unto death).
Christians who refuse to take the mark of the beast will suffer: “no one may buy or sell” (Rev 13:17).

Coming upon you as a thief • This is strictly a negative event, not a positive one
Revelation 3:2-3 ↓
• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return.
This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 ↓
• Paul is writing to those who KNOW the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.
This group is “all sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thessalonians 5:5).
But, the other group who is of the night and darkness, exclaims: “Peace and safety!”,
and then sudden destruction will come upon them, and they shall not escape.
• Many NT verses referring to Christ’s coming as a thief refer to His second coming at the
end of the tribulation period … because they talk about the last trumpet, the last day, etc.!
Matthew 24:43 … John 10:10 … 2 Peter 3:10 … 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 ↓
• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one.
Example: In 2 Peter 3:10, the Day of the Lord comes as a thief to destroy the heavens and the earth.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 ↓
• The above clearly says Christians will be on the earth when “this Day” arrives!
And some of them will be prepared for “this Day” because they have been watching and waiting.
Some Spirit-filled teachers are saying today: Only “the overcomers” / “the remnant” will escape
the terrible Day of the Lord (when Jesus returns) because they will be raptured just before it comes.
Revelation 16:15 ↓
• In this verse (and in Revelation 3:2-3) … believers are told to watch, and Christ is referred to as a thief.
At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, and all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least 6 of the 7
vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle of Armageddon,
Christ says: “Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief,
and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!

The Day of the Lord • The Day of God’s wrath is at Jesus’ second coming
at the end of the tribulation!
1 Thessalonians 5:2 … 2 Peter 3:10 ↓
• Here, both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord.
• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the 2nd coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
• All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-trib return of Jesus Christ.
2 great examples are Isaiah 13:6-9 and 2 Peter 3:10.
Matthew 24:29-31 ↓
• The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord at the very end of the tribulation.
However, some believe the Day of the Lord actually begins at some fictional pre-tribulation rapture!
2 Peter 3:10 ↓
• There is no way this verse about the Day of the Lord can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

SUMMARY FROM SCRIPTURE re: debunking the pre-tribulation rapture
• Matthew 24 says the elect will be gathered AFTER the tribulation period
• There are 2 resurrections: first the good and just, then (1000 years later) the evil and unjust
• The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST TRUMPET on the LAST DAY
• Jesus coming as a thief in the night is strictly a NEGATIVE EVENT, not a positive one
• The Day of the Lord is the Day of God’s wrath at Jesus’ second coming at the end of the tribulation
Even though Scripture teaches otherwise … Satan’s relatively new and
extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains popular!

The worst mistake anyone can make is to assume that the pre-tribulation rapture is correct.
This disastrous error can mean the loss of BOTH of one’s lives … physical and spiritual both.
Satan is the most incredible liar and deceiver, so trust in what the Scriptures clearly say.
A lot of money has been made by ticking the ears of unsuspecting believers in the church.
But, you are responsible before Almighty God to teach the Truth about this false doctrine.

This is clear, Jesus taught that the good and bad will be raised at the same time. Since this is so clear, the other unclear passages need to interpreted with this in mind.

John 5
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.[/FONT]

 

[Splagna]

The practical problem regarding pre-trib preachers is that they fail to preach pre-trib persecution. Parishioners embracing the pre-trib rapture have the notion that they'll get raptured out of here and not face persecution. That's dangerously false. American Christians and those in the West in general could face severe persecution before the tribulation.

 

[Bookends]

The practical problem regarding pre-trib preachers is that they fail to preach pre-trib persecution. Parishioners embracing the pre-trib rapture have the notion that they'll get raptured out of here and not face persecution. That's dangerously false. American Christians and those in the West in general could face severe persecution before the tribulation.

I would suggest that there is no "Thee Tribulation", but that Christian tribulation has existed since the 1st century when the church began. Also that there has been an eb and flow to tribulation throughout history in which will continue till Christ final and one only return.

 

[mpaper345]

The saints cannot be gathered unto Christ,until there is a falling away first,and the man of sin claims to be God to the world,and they take the mark.

God is giving the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so Gd can end this sin business,and when they take the mark of the beast,salvation is not available anymore,and the saints will be gathered unto Christ.

A false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult,God warns us about in 1 Timothy 4:1-5,that will become so popular people will only want to hear it that way(2 Timothy 4:2-4).

That false religious organization unifies the religions,and all interpreted by that false religion,and Christianity,Islam,and Judaism,interpreted by that religion,and all religions valid for spiritual evolution,so it stops the fighting among the religions for all are valid,except fundamental Christianity,Islam,and Judaism,which the man of sin attacks them by way of the world's power one at a time.

They will not want to hear the truth of the Bible,for all are valid,and Christianity declines in impacting the world,that is the falling away first.

Also as long as the world can repent of their sins the saints will remain on earth,which the world can repent of their sins for the first three and one half years,and when they take the mark then they cannot repent of their sins.

The man of sin claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period,and he blasphemes against God,and His tabernacle,and those that dwell in heaven,so the saints are on earth,for he would not have to go against Christianity if the saints were not on earth,and he makes war against the saints,and overcomes them,which God said do not take back,for if the shall lead in to captivity shall go in to captivity,and he who uses the sword shall perish with the sword.Here is the patience and faith of the saints.

The Bible says the last king shall destroy the mighty,and holy,people,and when he accomplishes to scatter the power of the holy people,then the saints will be gathered unto Christ.

Paul says do not be deceived by any means,already understand there is no pre-trib resurrection,and let it be.

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

The pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine that gives me ample opportunity to giggle.

 

[TMS]

The good news is if the pre-trib rapture is wrong, serious christians will still see the other signs of the tribulation & the Antichrist & still prepare themselves.

I do have a question, though. Not all "tribulation saints" will die, neither those who live for Christ during the millenial reign. So, what happens to them? What will happen to the millenial converts who stand for Christ?

the 1000 years is another subject, but don't believe everything you hear about how and where this time will be spent.
Research it and prove all things. Could it be that Jesus comes to gather the saved and take them to heaven for a 1000 years??
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[TMS]

This is clear, Jesus taught that the good and bad will be raised at the same time. Since this is so clear, the other unclear passages need to interpreted with this in mind.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

How does this say that it will happen at the same time? A time is coming when All will here his voice (it doesn't say at the same time, it divides it into two different resurrections), the time for the Resurrection of life is different to the time for the Resurrection of condemnation.

.....and they (the righteous) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[TMS]

one judgement, one return.
If you miss the boat you don't get a second chance.

Tribulation only brings out our true colours, trying times cause us to move closer to, or further away from Christ.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

2Co 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Do you think it will be different at the end?
Will God take His faithful away so that no persecution comes on them?
Through all ages the greatest witness for God was to lay down your life for Him. To die for your belief, to Love God more than your life is a huge witness for Jesus.
Mat_5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.




If we are faithful through tribulations we are glorifying God.

 

[mpaper345]

one judgement, one return.
If you miss the boat you don't get a second chance.

Tribulation only brings out our true colours, trying times cause us to move closer to, or further away from Christ.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

2Co 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Do you think it will be different at the end?
Will God take His faithful away so that no persecution comes on them?
Through all ages the greatest witness for God was to lay down your life for Him. To die for your belief, to Love God more than your life is a huge witness for Jesus.
Mat_5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

If we are faithful through tribulations we are glorifying God.

The beast kingdom will separate those that love God,from those that do not love God.

Also if someone says that God is love,and would not allow the saints to go through the tribulation,that is not logical,for if that was the case,God would of not allowed any saint to be persecuted throughout the history of the Church.

Also who do people think the tribulation is for,which the world is together and trying to solve their problems,and they do not believe in a personal God,and Jesus is the Savior,so they persecute all who do believe in a personal God,and Jesus,and God's wrath does not go against them for the 7 years period,for God is giving them their way to cause all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and the beast has power to rule for the last three and one half years,which God is allowing Him to rule until the three and one half years are over,then He will go against them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Do you think it will be different at the end? Will God take His faithful away so that no persecution comes on them?

Regarding the above, this is the crux of the on-going problem, which is not discerning the difference between the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said all believers would experience vs. God's coming wrath.

The apostles and the first century church suffered common trials and tribulation at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. In opposition, what will be taking place during that last seven years will be the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is these that believer's in Christ are not appointed to suffer. Common trials and tribulation is not the same as the wrath of God which will be unprecedented and will span that last seven years.

 

[mpaper345]

Regarding the above, this is the crux of the on-going problem, which is not discerning the difference between the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said all believers would experience vs. God's coming wrath.

The apostles and the first century church suffered common trials and tribulation at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. In opposition, what will be taking place during that last seven years will be the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is these that believer's in Christ are not appointed to suffer. Common trials and tribulation is not the same as the wrath of God which will be unprecedented and will span that last seven years.

The wrath of God does not occur during the 7 years period,why,because God is allowing the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so God can end this sin business,which God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,so God will not go against them until the 7 years is over.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

When the beast addresses the world,and his agenda,that there is no personal God,he has power to continue for the last three and one half years,which he will rule for the last three and one half years,which he could not have this power,and to rule,unless it were given to him by God,and since God is allowing him to rule,.and have his way,God will not violate that until the three and one half years are over,which this is when the great tribulation happens,which the Bible says that the saints are given in to his hands for three and one half years,and when he scatter the power of the holy people,then the saints shall be gathered unto Christ.

God is giving the world 7 years to have their way,so He will not go against them until the 7 years later.

The two witnesses is not the wrath of God,but go against people that would try to hinder them from reaching Israel with the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

After the 7 years is over,then God will go against them,and not before,because God is allowing them to have their way.

 

[Adstar]

Yes pre-tribulation rapture is a false doctrine.. It is an escapist delusion.. preach this delusion to the Christians of Syria who are being slaughtered and see what kind of reception you will receive...

 

[TMS]

Regarding the above, this is the crux of the on-going problem, which is not discerning the difference between the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said all believers would experience vs. God's coming wrath.

The apostles and the first century church suffered common trials and tribulation at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. In opposition, what will be taking place during that last seven years will be the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is these that believer's in Christ are not appointed to suffer. Common trials and tribulation is not the same as the wrath of God which will be unprecedented and will span that last seven years.

The plagues (Gods wrath) that came on Egypt affect all but some didn't affect God's people (eg pass over). This is how i believe it will happen at the end. His wrath will come on the earth and it will affect all but when God wants to protect His people He will.
Regardless of who gets affected by which tribulations, can you show how with simple bible logic (Not twisted verses), that there will be a rapture before the coming of Jesus?
Is there a verse that says that Gods people will be taken before the tribulations come.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The wrath of God does not occur during the 7 years period,why,because God is allowing the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so God can end this sin business,which God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,so God will not go against them until the 7 years is over.

I would have to greatly disagree with you mpaper. The wrath of God, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will indeed take place during that last seven years, with the last 3 1/2 being the worst. It is not until after the 7th bowl judgment that Jesus returns. We know this because at the pouring out of the 6th bowl, which is one of the plagues of God's wrath, Jesus interjects the following:

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

We also know that God's wrath is running parallel with the beasts reign because the pouring out of the 5th bowl results in the following:

"The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done."

The fact that the 5th bowl specifically affects the beasts kingdom, this would also demonstrate that God's wrath is running parallel during the beasts reign. Furthermore, the rider on the white horse who emerges at the opening of the 1st seal is the revealing of that antichrist.

The two witnesses is not the wrath of God,but go against people that would try to hinder them from reaching Israel with the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Again, the plagues that the two witnesses will be performing are indeed the wrath of God and will affect the inhabitants on the entire earth, as demonstrated in the following:

"For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth."

As you can see from the scripture above, it is not just Israel who will be affected by the plagues of wrath that these two witnesses will be bringing upon the earth, but from every people, tribe, language and nation. God is most certainly not going to let the world have its way during that last seven years, but this will be the time of the fulfillment of God's wrath, the day of the Lord.

 

[CS1]

long read :

those who agree with pretrib, post-trig, no trip rapture all agree on the soon coming of the Lord. This is not an essential for salvation. But i would say there is scripture to support all positions. But to call it false ? I'm not so sure but that is up to you all