Salvation, Forgiveness, Grace, Faith, and Works

[eph610]

what viepoint?

I was lost. If I died when I was a prodigal son, would I have went to hell?

He did not go to hell, but he did not retain ALL......What did the Father say to the son who was angry, but stayed faithful....

Peeps love to write off the brother as self righteous and such, but seem to never know what the Father told him....all I have is yours....

He did not give that promise back to the Prodigal...the Prodigal was restored in a new robe, given back limited authority[ring on the finger], was not identified any longer as a slave[new shoes]....however, he never gained back the original inheritance, it was given to his brother, who continued in faith and relationship...

 

[eph610]

Please. put this thought out of your mind This is not true in any sense (maybe the most ardent calvanists would say this, But not even calvin himself believed that free will was removed.)

Tis true about Calvin, but men love to add traditions to the scriptures...they always have and they always will...

 

[eph610]

I thought that OSAS defenders believed that the Christian no longer had free will. For the most part, I have found that they are adamantly opposed to this idea. Instead they would say that the believer is free to choose, but because of understanding God's love and goodness, the Christian will not choose to deny Christ. God is able to keep the Christian and will not lose him.

See a thread and poll I did earlier: "How do eternal security and free will relate together for the Christian". There seem to be differences of opinion about this idea among OSAS believers.

We have those that state there is no Free will[true predestination teachers] or that it is removed when you get saved, because he eternally secures the believer...they then re-enforce good behavior through legalism and religion...


What I find interesting in the denominations that preach this stuff, they have the highest rates of teen problems like pregnancy, drug/alcohol abuse, porn addictions/sexting, the adult issues are higher divorce rates, gambling., porn drugs, etc

We love to sell the bill of goods, hey your saved it is quite OK and expected to live like hell, but don't worry, he eternally secured you...you can keep on coming back to Jesus.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He did not go to hell, but he did not retain ALL......What did the Father say to the son who was angry, but stayed faithful....

Peeps love to write off the brother as self righteous and such, but seem to never know what the Father told him....all I have is yours....

He did not give that promise back to the Prodigal...the Prodigal was restored in a new robe, given back limited authority[ring on the finger], was not identified any longer as a slave[new shoes]....however, he never gained back the original inheritance, it was given to his brother, who continued in faith and relationship...

May I ask, When was the son EVER called a slave by the father? It was the son who came back, even if his father would only allow him to be the slave. the father never called him a slave.

Funny how the son complained when the meat which should have been his (because he earned it) was killed and given to the son who did not deserve it.

So I am not sure what you mean about not receiving the full inheritance, He was given the BEST..

Also note. The father gave the son his inheritance when he left. He spent it all (it was not given to the other son) yet the father said, I still have more to give you. The fathers gifts never run out.

anyway,

I asked, If I died before I came back, Would i go to hell?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will let God be the judge on that one!

hmm, Then we can never have any form of agreement, How can I say I agree with you if I do not even know what you believe.

and by the way, I believe God did tell us..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Tis true about Calvin, but men love to add traditions to the scriptures...they always have and they always will...

thats why we are told not to follow men, But God.

I used to be a follower of men, Think the pastor God put over me could never make a mistake. I leaned the hard way, That is not true.

 

[lastofall]

1. " From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17)
"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20)
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
"Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)
2. "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:13)
3. "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17)
4. "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." (John 8:31)
"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." (John 6:66)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We have those that state there is no Free will[true predestination teachers] or that it is removed when you get saved, because he eternally secures the believer...they then re-enforce good behavior through legalism and religion...


What I find interesting in the denominations that preach this stuff, they have the highest rates of teen problems like pregnancy, drug/alcohol abuse, porn addictions/sexting, the adult issues are higher divorce rates, gambling., porn drugs, etc

We love to sell the bill of goods, hey your saved it is quite OK and expected to live like hell, but don't worry, he eternally secured you...you can keep on coming back to Jesus.....

aww the old strawmen, Like this does not happen in legalistic churches. it only happens in grace only churches. How many legalistic pastors or people have been caught in deep sin, but only because they made a mistake because they were to afraid to let the cat out of the bag, People may judge , Or religious people who all stick together who have the same issues, and condemn other churches and people because they commit certain sins?

Yeah legalism sure helps people do Gods will.

OSAS does not help people sin, or teach them it is ok, Thats nonsense

People pride teach them it is ok to sin, it does not matter if you are a legalist (watering down Gods law) or licentious (saying I can sin all I want)

I personally am sick of this attack..It is like saying my sin does not stink,, but yours, Yours will condemn you to hell.

 

[eph610]

aww the old strawmen, Like this does not happen in legalistic churches. it only happens in grace only churches. How many legalistic pastors or people have been caught in deep sin, but only because they made a mistake because they were to afraid to let the cat out of the bag, People may judge , Or religious people who all stick together who have the same issues, and condemn other churches and people because they commit certain sins?

Yeah legalism sure helps people do Gods will.

OSAS does not help people sin, or teach them it is ok, Thats nonsense

People pride teach them it is ok to sin, it does not matter if you are a legalist (watering down Gods law) or licentious (saying I can sin all I want)

I personally am sick of this attack..It is like saying my sin does not stink,, but yours, Yours will condemn you to hell.

I think because you are in a small home based church movement, you really are sheltered from what some of us fight agaisnt everyday....

You tell everyone where you came from, that is fine and now you found grace, which is great...but for you to suggest modern denominational mainline OSAS is not anything I have described is your loss....nor do I believe or have I ever thought my sin is ok and your's is not....

I know plenty of non-OSAS denominations that have just as many issues...just not as high...

I think because you came up in a legalistic atmosphere and now found true grace....colors your theology and that is fine...

You all but told me that it is not anyone fault or responsibility to go after ones that Fall away after enduring the world, because they are saved.,....that EGH is nothing but universalism at its sleekest and finest...

You grow tired of the attack, there is no attack or straw man....a difference of opinion most likely...

 

[PeterJens]

what viepoint?

I was lost. If I died when I was a prodigal son, would I have went to hell?

Yes. The whole point of the story is the son was lost, not gone on holiday, he
was completely dead to his father.

The parable was told to say life sucks, if you step out in front of an 8 ton truck you will die.
We are given a fantastic opportunity to know God, or cease to be, forever.

The problem is God cannot make us like Him, love wants love returned, but it is a free choice.
We are a wonderful creation, full of opportunity and growth, but if we break the rules, pull
things apart we die.

I have seen people destroy their lives out of bloody mindedness. God wants to give us unbelievable
privilege and power, but we need to know how to love and be as He is.

The problem is no matter where we set up camp we will be convinced we are right. It is the nature
of our existance and being made in the image of the Father. But there is only one right being in
the universe, God Himself. But He is a still small voice buried in infinite power and authority.

We find these extremes very hard, and very different from our way of being among ourselves.

But thankyou EG for showing me another side of spiritual existance and stubboness.
I could not have learnt so much if you were not like this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think because you are in a small home based church movement, you really are sheltered from what some of us fight agaisnt everyday....

lol dude My church is over 6000 people.. I am a group with close to 800 people which is split into smaller home groups as we serve one of my cities inner city neighborhoods.

Again, Please stop judging what you do not know..

You assuming things, and thats wrong. I also have been a christian for 40 years. So I am not some newbie..

You tell everyone where you came from, that is fine and now you found grace, which is great..

Actually I found grace 40 some years ago. But thats beside the point.

but for you to suggest modern denominational mainline OSAS is not anything I have described is your loss....

My loss?? What you said you foud a FEW small churches, and you claim that is mainline?

Dude, I am retired military, I was members of churches all over this country for 15 years. And you want to tell me what is mainline?

I will ask you again, Does the fact that people can turn osas into a sinful religion mean that OSAS is a lie? if you say yes. You are wrong.. The fact that satan fights OSAS as much as he does (nothing more is so heavily and dirtily fought in Gods church) is just one more proof that I am on the right track.

nor do I believe or have I ever thought my sin is ok and your's is not....

Yet you sure as much as just insinuated that when you complained about churches who seem to say it is ok to sin.. What makes you more righteous then them, Have you visited those churches to know what they teach?

People have said that about my church, Yet they are no more understanding of my church than anyone else.

I know plenty of non-OSAS denominations that have just as many issues...just not as high...

you must not know of many churches then,, I have been out in the world And it is far higher than you think.

I think because you came up in a legalistic atmosphere and now found true grace....colors your theology and that is fine...

You seem to try to find all kinds of excuses why is that? I though you wanted to discuss things, How can we have a discussion if all you do is condemn me, and say my view is based on things, (which are not even true)

I knew grace before I knew legalism.. Legalism was not brought into my fold until I was a christian for quite a few years..

You all but told me that it is not anyone fault or responsibility to go after ones that Fall away after enduring the world, because they are saved.,....that EGH is nothing but universalism at its sleekest and finest...

um do what? This makes no sense. I have no idea what you are talking about.

You grow tired of the attack, there is no attack or straw man....a difference of opinion most likely...

hmm, to each his own.

When a group of people keep makingn the same old argument,s which do NOTHING to support their view. it is a strawman attack. It does not matter if you think it is or not..

I am sick of peopel attacking grace, if that makes me a bad person then so be it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes. The whole point of the story is the son was lost, not gone on holiday, he
was completely dead to his father.

Thank you. At least peter is honest.

And oh by the way peter. You just did what no man can do. And take a blood relationship. and remove blood from the equation.

That son still had his fathers blood in his veins, he still had his fathers DNA, He was still his fathers son..

So sorry peter. But I can not agree with you. A man can no more unborn himself to his parents, than he can climb back into his mothers womb to be born again.

did he lose his fathers help and blessing? Yes
His sonshop? No. He has no power to unbornn himself.

 

[PeterJens]

You grow tired of the attack, there is no attack or straw man....a difference of opinion most likely...

EG makes everything into a big battle with long posts and points here and there.
He rarely changes and is happy to mock, deride, slander, miss-represent, and use all the tactics
he can think of to make you feel small, empty, stupid and an idiot. So do not take in personally
he is a full frontal assault merchant unless you are nice to him, lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG makes everything into a big battle with long posts and points here and there.
He rarely changes and is happy to mock, deride, slander, miss-represent, and use all the tactics
he can think of to make you feel small, empty, stupid and an idiot. So do not take in personally
he is a full frontal assault merchant unless you are nice to him, lol.

so it is ok for peter to slander people and say lies about what they believe.

full of frontal assault?

Seems what I am doing is DEFENDING a believe, Not attacking another.

oh I forgot. Peter thinks anyone who disagrees with him is attacking him..

 

[PennEd]

We have those that state there is no Free will[true predestination teachers] or that it is removed when you get saved, because he eternally secures the believer...they then re-enforce good behavior through legalism and religion...


What I find interesting in the denominations that preach this stuff, they have the highest rates of teen problems like pregnancy, drug/alcohol abuse, porn addictions/sexting, the adult issues are higher divorce rates, gambling., porn drugs, etc

We love to sell the bill of goods, hey your saved it is quite OK and expected to live like hell, but don't worry, he eternally secured you...you can keep on coming back to Jesus.....

Free will. No free will. Either way I KNOW I don't want to do MY will. I freely give my will to the Lord and ask Him to fill me with the desire to do ONLY His Will.

Doing our will(sin) ALWAYS has consequences. But for the Christian, lost Salvation is NOT one of them.
Lost opportunities to be used by God to bring others to Christ, physical health, up to physical death, mental issues, and lost eternal rewards are examples of the Christian following their own "free will"
Which doesn't sound very free to me!

 

[PeterJens]

Thank you. At least peter is honest.
And oh by the way peter. You just did what no man can do. And take a blood relationship. and remove blood from the equation.

Jesus denied blood relationships. Do you not know your own Lord?

Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Matt 12:49-50

EG you do not know the one you claim to know or his loyalties.
Oh blind guide, how can you say you see.

 

[PeterJens]

so it is ok for peter to slander people and say lies about what they believe.
full of frontal assault?
Seems what I am doing is DEFENDING a believe, Not attacking another.
oh I forgot. Peter thinks anyone who disagrees with him is attacking him..

Lol. I know who my enemies are, and I still love them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus denied blood relationships. Do you not know your own Lord?

Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
Matt 12:49-50

EG you do not know the one you claim to know or his loyalties.
Oh blind guide, how can you say you see.

wow.

Jesus denied that earthly blood relationship does not make us his children, and you twist and turn that to say God denys blood relationships.

So why did God have man spill the blood of millions of animals to show what it takes to have a relationship with him Then spend the NT telling us how we were purchased with his blood. and it was his blood that made us acceptable to him.

and I am a blind guide.

I love how you continually attack me by calling me all kinds of names, Yet you say it is me attacking you. You do not even know what an attack is, you just prove you are a person who teaches do as I say, not as I do (you can not even life up to your own standard)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol. I know who my enemies are, and I still love them.

I do to. And I love then also.

yeah peter. I love you, and do not even consider you my enemy,, I have no enemies, Because God is my king, and who can withstand God?

 

[Chester]

I do to. And I love then also.

yeah peter. I love you, and do not even consider you my enemy,, I have no enemies, Because God is my king, and who can withstand God?

You know EG, I think I once softly reprimanded you for not having enough patience with Peter. You have proved me wrong! I repent in dust and ashes of any such attitude I had.

And Peter, I think you have patience too -- and lots of grit and ------------ - I don't know - I can't always understand what you are trying to say - though I do often agree with what I hear you saying . . .