Salvation, Forgiveness, Grace, Faith, and Works
- Thread starter Chester
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I'm only too glad God has no respect for our opinions.
Our will is subject to Gods will or we cannot be saved. We yield our will to sin before we know Christ. We are wedded to sin by a bond that can only be broken by death. We are wedded to Christ because He freed us from our bondage to sin by His death. Free now to marry another and not commit adultery. No divorce in Christ.
Romans 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Our will is subject to Gods will or we cannot be saved. We yield our will to sin before we know Christ. We are wedded to sin by a bond that can only be broken by death. We are wedded to Christ because He freed us from our bondage to sin by His death. Free now to marry another and not commit adultery. No divorce in Christ.
Romans 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Belief is more than simple mental assent. I can believe that it's going to rain today but if I don't do something in response then how fervent is my belief?
I believe that a person must get good and lost before they can get saved. It is more than just to believe in Jesus. It is to understand that by believing in Jesus we are pardoned and our sin forgiven. With this understanding we are made wise unto salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I believe that a person must get good and lost before they can get saved. It is more than just to believe in Jesus. It is to understand that by believing in Jesus we are pardoned and our sin forgiven. With this understanding we are made wise unto salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I appreciate this thread Chester. I read each post so far and I realize that we'll always be limited by the words we say because of how each person interprets them differently. Hopefully I do as well as everyone else to explain what I believe, being of a similar position as Chester regarding "non-OSAS" stance not equaling a "works-only" earned salvation (though we may differ a bit).
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To me salvation is the whole manifested process, like a branch attached to a vine/root. I believe salvation is rooted in faith in Christ that's manifested by good works (fruit). So as long as the branch remains attached to the vine AND produces good fruit its life is assured and it stays away from the fire, but if (a) the connection is severed or (b) the branch begins producing bad fruit the branch is removed and cast into the fire.
The life-giving sap that the branch uses to produce its fruit is not of itself; it's from the root alone. But with that sap, the branch is tasked with the fruit it must produces else the husbandman will remove the branch from the vine and cast it into the fire.
So to me OSAS is the same as me saying, "once an attached branch always an attached branch", no matter what fruit the branch produces even if it never produces any fruit. So I have to disagree with it.
Can a branch work to produce fruit without being attached to the vine? No. It's impossible. Its work is dead as the branch is already dead. It's not connected to its source of life so its effort is useless. Ready for the fire. (Not Saved)
Then...
1. By faith in the husbandman, the branch is plucked from the fire (Saved)
2. By faith in the husbandman, the branch is grafted to the vine/root (Justification)
3. Through no work of its own, the root begins to feeds its sap into the branch (Gift of Grace)
4. The branch is then tasked with growing and working to produce good fruit fit for the vine/root (Sanctification)
But can the branch attached to the vine an NOT produce any fruit, or produce bad fruit? No. It's a useless branch that will be pruned from the vine to allow other branches to produce more fruit. Ready for the fire. (No Longer Saved)
...So I believe a continual abiding is required to remain saved, which involves remaining faithful to Christ (for the sap) AND maintaining obedience to God's commands (i.e. fruit of good works).
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To me salvation is the whole manifested process, like a branch attached to a vine/root. I believe salvation is rooted in faith in Christ that's manifested by good works (fruit). So as long as the branch remains attached to the vine AND produces good fruit its life is assured and it stays away from the fire, but if (a) the connection is severed or (b) the branch begins producing bad fruit the branch is removed and cast into the fire.
The life-giving sap that the branch uses to produce its fruit is not of itself; it's from the root alone. But with that sap, the branch is tasked with the fruit it must produces else the husbandman will remove the branch from the vine and cast it into the fire.
So to me OSAS is the same as me saying, "once an attached branch always an attached branch", no matter what fruit the branch produces even if it never produces any fruit. So I have to disagree with it.
Can a branch work to produce fruit without being attached to the vine? No. It's impossible. Its work is dead as the branch is already dead. It's not connected to its source of life so its effort is useless. Ready for the fire. (Not Saved)
Then...
1. By faith in the husbandman, the branch is plucked from the fire (Saved)
2. By faith in the husbandman, the branch is grafted to the vine/root (Justification)
3. Through no work of its own, the root begins to feeds its sap into the branch (Gift of Grace)
4. The branch is then tasked with growing and working to produce good fruit fit for the vine/root (Sanctification)
But can the branch attached to the vine an NOT produce any fruit, or produce bad fruit? No. It's a useless branch that will be pruned from the vine to allow other branches to produce more fruit. Ready for the fire. (No Longer Saved)
...So I believe a continual abiding is required to remain saved, which involves remaining faithful to Christ (for the sap) AND maintaining obedience to God's commands (i.e. fruit of good works).
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Not a run of the mill process at all. Backsliding is very serious and has definite spiritual consequences. Please do not mischaracterize what I say. All I was saying is that for the backsliding Christian, true repentance is needed.
To be fair, to continue to sin until it becomes iniquity in one's life would be backsliding correct?
To return back to the Lord would then follow repentance to God. Some call this re-dedication? Usually after perhaps a prodigal son moment. The Lord can and does deliver us out of whatever is holding us back when we ask for help earnestly and repent of whatever it is we are doing that is displeasing to the Lord.
To be fair, to continue to sin until it becomes iniquity in one's life would be backsliding correct?
To return back to the Lord would then follow repentance to God. Some call this re-dedication? Usually after perhaps a prodigal son moment. The Lord can and does deliver us out of whatever is holding us back when we ask for help earnestly and repent of whatever it is we are doing that is displeasing to the Lord.
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God's greatest gift through Christ dumbed down to a pickle and a butterfly and they still don't get it..
I love it.
I love it.
Just kidding! I know what you mean - I am just poking back in fun! LOL!
E
All is well Brother, I misunderstood what you were saying...
I really think there are man made traditions regarding salvation....things like losing salvation as quick as your car keys, re-dedications, getting saved and still living like hell without any evidence of true relationship with Jesus Christ,works to maintain salvation....there are probably more....
As a minister, I dislike when other ministers or even lay folks say, well we can never know truly if someone is saved....so lets not judge....The Holy Ghost shows us all things....I cannot count the the times I have met the same person at the altar, many times praying with them and I knew by the Holy Ghost they were just mental assenting...and then there comes the time they come down and in love, I ask...aren't you tired of running, aren't you exhausted living without Jesus...and they finally confess with their mouth and believe in their heart and the change is profound.....those folks have always told me, thanks for loving me while I was unlovable....its not about me, but it is about endurance...and he who wins souls is wise...
I really think there are man made traditions regarding salvation....things like losing salvation as quick as your car keys, re-dedications, getting saved and still living like hell without any evidence of true relationship with Jesus Christ,works to maintain salvation....there are probably more....
As a minister, I dislike when other ministers or even lay folks say, well we can never know truly if someone is saved....so lets not judge....The Holy Ghost shows us all things....I cannot count the the times I have met the same person at the altar, many times praying with them and I knew by the Holy Ghost they were just mental assenting...and then there comes the time they come down and in love, I ask...aren't you tired of running, aren't you exhausted living without Jesus...and they finally confess with their mouth and believe in their heart and the change is profound.....those folks have always told me, thanks for loving me while I was unlovable....its not about me, but it is about endurance...and he who wins souls is wise...
Originally Posted by hornetguy
He cannot "lose" it, but he can certainly willingly give it up, IMO, of course.
Eph 1 shows us that God inaugurated the plan of salvation and determined to bring it about without our works, except for those He would produce in us (2.10). Why should He change now?
,
E
I agree with your original post in many ways Chester. There have been many people who mislabel and characterize those who understand that at the intrinsic level, OSAS is not true as those who believe that works keep mankind saved.
However, I must say that many Christians backslide. I have done it, I know many Christians who have backslid... we are simply human and we have flesh bodies that war against the Spirit. To establish that one was never saved to begin with is to make a heart judgment. This is the only type of judgment we are never called to make. Christians can backslide and do, the important part to remember is that when we repent, He is good to forgive us of our transgression against Him! This is a reality in the new covenant that we have a Mediator and Advocate who is good to forgive us our sins when we repent. All He is looking for is for us to purpose our hearts towards Him as broken yielded vessels, not perfection by our own merits.
However, I must say that many Christians backslide. I have done it, I know many Christians who have backslid... we are simply human and we have flesh bodies that war against the Spirit. To establish that one was never saved to begin with is to make a heart judgment. This is the only type of judgment we are never called to make. Christians can backslide and do, the important part to remember is that when we repent, He is good to forgive us of our transgression against Him!
This is a reality in the new covenant that we have a Mediator and Advocate who is good to forgive us our sins when we repent. All He is looking for is for us to purpose our hearts towards Him as broken yielded vessels, not perfection by our own merits.
the important thing to remember is a backslidden christian is still a christian, Still a child of God. He is just in the discipline stage, not the blessing stage. He needs to repent and come back forward to his father to be blessed again , but he will always be the son.
Hid did nothing to make himself born of God. he can not do something to unborn himself.
E
I was a backslidden Christian.
Due to circumstances in life. and the churches stand, I figured God had given up on me, and knew the church would judge me (my wife kicked me out for another man) so I left the church and was gone for over 5 years. And I looked nothing like a child of God for those 5 years.
While your right, it did turn out bad. (God brought me so low. I was ready to take my own life. and would have if God did not intervene)
When I came back, I did not rededicate myself. (that is religious talk, rededicate to what?) My father cooked the greatest meal Sat me by his side, and said welcome back son..
Due to circumstances in life. and the churches stand, I figured God had given up on me, and knew the church would judge me (my wife kicked me out for another man) so I left the church and was gone for over 5 years. And I looked nothing like a child of God for those 5 years.
While your right, it did turn out bad. (God brought me so low. I was ready to take my own life. and would have if God did not intervene)
When I came back, I did not rededicate myself. (that is religious talk, rededicate to what?) My father cooked the greatest meal Sat me by his side, and said welcome back son..
Ephesians 2:8 [FONT="]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 11:29 [/FONT][FONT="]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 8:38-39
[/FONT][FONT="]38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,[/FONT]
[FONT="]39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Oh lucky reader. Look what you have stumbled upon. But don't call it OSAS. Call it Blessed Assurance. It seems to make people less upset...[/FONT]
Romans 11:29 [/FONT][FONT="]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 8:38-39
[/FONT][FONT="]38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,[/FONT]
[FONT="]39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Oh lucky reader. Look what you have stumbled upon. But don't call it OSAS. Call it Blessed Assurance. It seems to make people less upset...[/FONT]
E
we are not saved by works, its is through Jesus Christ and him alone. After salvation and out of love for what he did for us, we should begin manifesting the kingdom of God to the world and expanding & maintaining our personal relationship with Jesus Christ....
Many think I can get saved and do not have to manifest, expand and maintain anything regarding Jesus....and all is well....
When you get married do you give your spouse all or only some in the relationship? If you only give her some and keep the porn and other things that take away from the relationship and you do not change, 4 things will happen.
She will end up leaving you...Her love for you is so great she will stay with you, urging you to forsake those things that are causing the relationship not to grow....if her imploring you to change the things for the relationship to grow, she will stay but her promptings will be reduced and eventually nothing will be said and she will give you over to your selfish desire....and you will eventually leave her.....
Many think I can get saved and do not have to manifest, expand and maintain anything regarding Jesus....and all is well....
When you get married do you give your spouse all or only some in the relationship? If you only give her some and keep the porn and other things that take away from the relationship and you do not change, 4 things will happen.
She will end up leaving you...Her love for you is so great she will stay with you, urging you to forsake those things that are causing the relationship not to grow....if her imploring you to change the things for the relationship to grow, she will stay but her promptings will be reduced and eventually nothing will be said and she will give you over to your selfish desire....and you will eventually leave her.....
E
Ever notice that many OSAS defenders stay away from talking about free choice/free will? They use terms to describe salvation like predestined, chosen, picked, selected, etc. They also convey a form of universalism, that no matter how bad you live, you can always come back because of grace...The stay away from talking about free will/free choice regarding maintaining/expanding relationship with Father, Son and Holy Ghost after salvation, because it would imply that God's greatest gift of salvation is based on covenant relationship....
If the law was based on covenant and Israel went whoring all the time, what makes us think under the New Covenant, free choice/ free will went out the window? OSAS suggests the removal of free will/free choice and according to my Bible, that is not what God, the Son or Holy Ghost has ever done....
Now watch they will say free will/free choice only amounts to initial salvation and nothing else...this is why they can comfortably tell you other souls don't matter if they are saved an still living like hell, because they are saved...and that there does not have to be any evidence of the manifestation of the kingdom of God to the world, or that maintaining and expanding relationship with the God head is warranted, because it manifests itself is automatically when we become his children....and we don't have to work at it...
Covenant relationship is who God is and always will be...
This is an answer to post #8 - eternally grateful - my "reply with quote" button gets stuck so I will try the cut and past approach:
EG wrote: "But I think you forgot a very important fact about what separates a true faith from a perceived faith which is not real (mere belief)"
Response: Smile! I sense a sermon coming - I want to hear it - (short one please!) - What do you think I forgot? (I am sure I forgot something!)
EG wrote: "Is grace only given to a lost sinner? and is it only given to awaken faith so you can hear and believe? Is it not much more than this?"
Response: Of course not - believers also need God's grace daily - I was just focusing in on initial salvation.
EG wrote: "That's fine, But I think this is the cruxt of the issue that separates what you believe and what I believe. And you can not understand what I believe until you understand what these two terms mean."
Response: I would like to hear your definitions of grace and faith. You are right that this may be a key difference in what we believe. But I wonder if our definition differences come from a different perception of Scripture - and that comes from our preconceived notions taught to us!
EG wrote: "The first part of confusion might be when you say sanctification is the process of "staying saved" can you explain this some more. so I do not misread you. "
Response: I think that you (and others) have a phobia with these words - I just have to say "stay saved" and you think works -- and maybe it is a poor word choice. I see it as no different that talking about people "getting saved" - this is not usually seen as automatically meaning that the salvation is by works. On the other hand, since you believe salvation cannot be lost, I can understand why "stay saved" evokes this response. Just know that if I say "stay saved" I am not meaning that it is works that keep me saved. As I state in the first post, I was saved initially by grace through faith. That is the same way that I know I am saved today - by grace through faith. So "stay saved" to me is the same as talking about sanctification.
I suppose that in some respects our differences on OSAS are going to cause this division if I talk about "stay saved". I do believe a Christian can lose their salvation and so they have the privilege of daily continuing to believe and thus they "stay saved". To me "stay saved" has the same joy and deep satisfaction as "get saved": because it means that today I am resting deeply on the finished work of Christ for my salvation. When I say "stay saved" - you think of works - I think of the deep daily joy of relationship and faith in Christ! Yes, really! I am not kidding!
EG wrote: "To me (and this is my view) then the person in your gospel is not yet saved, If future sin is not forgiven, then how can I be saved from Gods wrath? Saved from my sin? Saved from the condemnation which the law pronounced on me..
The bible says I am saved, not might be saved.. So there is another issue with terms..lol"
Response: Sin is not held against a person before it is committed. When I sin (as a Christian) I am forgiven right then. The sin is not written down and held against me till I "repent and ask for fogiveness" (Here I differ with some others). God's wrath is poured out on committed sin that is not forgiven through Jesus' blood. His wrath is not poured out upon me because I might commit an act of sin in the future. I am 100% saved at this moment in time because the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed me from all sins I have committed. Does this help?
EG wrote: "My response would be, Do you have faith or not. Again, this is why we have to determine what faith is. True faith does not come and go. Especially with someone who has done nothing to stop earning our trust in him."
Response: It seems here we both speak of faith and believing at different levels. I am quite certain that on another post you just recently wrote about "losing faith"
EG wrote: "Why would god call "life" eternal. if it can be lost."
Response: God never did call it "eternal" - he called it "aionios" -- It is the English translators who translated this "eternal". We have to look at what Jesus and the writers of the NT meant by "aionios".
But getting aside from what I feel is an important point of understanding the Greek word: I hear this thought - If it is possible to lose the gift of eternal life, then if was not "eternal" life. Nonsense! If I quit having faith and hence lose God's gift, his gift of eternal life still stands as an invitation and a free gift! My having faith or not having faith does not change "eternal life". If I give you the gift of "everlasting use of my car" and after two years you give the car back to me, my offer still stands. I hesitate using illustrations like the above because the bounds of the wealth of God's kingdom is always limited when conveyed in finite language.
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EG wrote: "But I think you forgot a very important fact about what separates a true faith from a perceived faith which is not real (mere belief)"
Response: Smile! I sense a sermon coming - I want to hear it - (short one please!) - What do you think I forgot? (I am sure I forgot something!)
EG wrote: "Is grace only given to a lost sinner? and is it only given to awaken faith so you can hear and believe? Is it not much more than this?"
Response: Of course not - believers also need God's grace daily - I was just focusing in on initial salvation.
EG wrote: "That's fine, But I think this is the cruxt of the issue that separates what you believe and what I believe. And you can not understand what I believe until you understand what these two terms mean."
Response: I would like to hear your definitions of grace and faith. You are right that this may be a key difference in what we believe. But I wonder if our definition differences come from a different perception of Scripture - and that comes from our preconceived notions taught to us!
EG wrote: "The first part of confusion might be when you say sanctification is the process of "staying saved" can you explain this some more. so I do not misread you. "
Response: I think that you (and others) have a phobia with these words - I just have to say "stay saved" and you think works -- and maybe it is a poor word choice. I see it as no different that talking about people "getting saved" - this is not usually seen as automatically meaning that the salvation is by works. On the other hand, since you believe salvation cannot be lost, I can understand why "stay saved" evokes this response. Just know that if I say "stay saved" I am not meaning that it is works that keep me saved. As I state in the first post, I was saved initially by grace through faith. That is the same way that I know I am saved today - by grace through faith. So "stay saved" to me is the same as talking about sanctification.
I suppose that in some respects our differences on OSAS are going to cause this division if I talk about "stay saved". I do believe a Christian can lose their salvation and so they have the privilege of daily continuing to believe and thus they "stay saved". To me "stay saved" has the same joy and deep satisfaction as "get saved": because it means that today I am resting deeply on the finished work of Christ for my salvation. When I say "stay saved" - you think of works - I think of the deep daily joy of relationship and faith in Christ! Yes, really! I am not kidding!
EG wrote: "To me (and this is my view) then the person in your gospel is not yet saved, If future sin is not forgiven, then how can I be saved from Gods wrath? Saved from my sin? Saved from the condemnation which the law pronounced on me..
The bible says I am saved, not might be saved.. So there is another issue with terms..lol"
Response: Sin is not held against a person before it is committed. When I sin (as a Christian) I am forgiven right then. The sin is not written down and held against me till I "repent and ask for fogiveness" (Here I differ with some others). God's wrath is poured out on committed sin that is not forgiven through Jesus' blood. His wrath is not poured out upon me because I might commit an act of sin in the future. I am 100% saved at this moment in time because the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed me from all sins I have committed. Does this help?
EG wrote: "My response would be, Do you have faith or not. Again, this is why we have to determine what faith is. True faith does not come and go. Especially with someone who has done nothing to stop earning our trust in him."
Response: It seems here we both speak of faith and believing at different levels. I am quite certain that on another post you just recently wrote about "losing faith"
EG wrote: "Why would god call "life" eternal. if it can be lost."
Response: God never did call it "eternal" - he called it "aionios" -- It is the English translators who translated this "eternal". We have to look at what Jesus and the writers of the NT meant by "aionios".
But getting aside from what I feel is an important point of understanding the Greek word: I hear this thought - If it is possible to lose the gift of eternal life, then if was not "eternal" life. Nonsense! If I quit having faith and hence lose God's gift, his gift of eternal life still stands as an invitation and a free gift! My having faith or not having faith does not change "eternal life". If I give you the gift of "everlasting use of my car" and after two years you give the car back to me, my offer still stands. I hesitate using illustrations like the above because the bounds of the wealth of God's kingdom is always limited when conveyed in finite language.
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I have met an extraordinary amount of beaten down people from the same denomination which shall not be mentioned so as not to derail the thread. It ticks me off fiercely that these folks are defeated and want little or nothing to do with God.
I pray for them that God opens their hearts and minds to His love and grace, providing them with the Gospel Truth of victory and life in Jesus' Name. The Truth that should have been shared with them in the first place.
I pray for them that God opens their hearts and minds to His love and grace, providing them with the Gospel Truth of victory and life in Jesus' Name. The Truth that should have been shared with them in the first place.