Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?

[FreeNChrist]

"Did the Law ever love me? Did the Law ever sacrifice itself for me? Did the Law ever die for me? On the contrary, it accuses me, it frightens me, it drives me crazy. Somebody else saved me from the Law, from sin and death unto eternal life. That Somebody is the Son of God (Who loved me and gave Himself for me). Hence, Christ is no Moses, no tyrant, no lawgiver, but the Giver of grace, the Savior, full of mercy….. Visualize Christ in these His true colors. I do not say that it is easy. Even in the present diffusion of the Gospel light, I have much trouble to see Christ as Paul portrays Him. So deeply has the diseased opinion that Christ is a lawgiver sunk into my bones. You younger men are a good deal better off than we who are old. You have never become infected with the nefarious errors on which I suckled all my youth, until at the mention of the name of Christ I shivered with fear. You, I say, who are young may learn to know Christ in all His sweetness. For Christ is Joy and Sweetness to a broken heart. Christ is a Lover of poor sinners and such a Lover that He gave Himself for us. Now if this is true, and it is true, then are we never justified by our own righteousness."


–Martin Luther

 

[ladylynn]

"Did the Law ever love me? Did the Law ever sacrifice itself for me? Did the Law ever die for me? On the contrary, it accuses me, it frightens me, it drives me crazy. Somebody else saved me from the Law, from sin and death unto eternal life. That Somebody is the Son of God (Who loved me and gave Himself for me). Hence, Christ is no Moses, no tyrant, no lawgiver, but the Giver of grace, the Savior, full of mercy….. Visualize Christ in these His true colors. I do not say that it is easy. Even in the present diffusion of the Gospel light, I have much trouble to see Christ as Paul portrays Him. So deeply has the diseased opinion that Christ is a lawgiver sunk into my bones. You younger men are a good deal better off than we who are old. You have never become infected with the nefarious errors on which I suckled all my youth, until at the mention of the name of Christ I shivered with fear. You, I say, who are young may learn to know Christ in all His sweetness. For Christ is Joy and Sweetness to a broken heart. Christ is a Lover of poor sinners and such a Lover that He gave Himself for us. Now if this is true, and it is true, then are we never justified by our own righteousness."


–Martin Luther

That is beautiful and so appropriate for each and every one of us here. Amen!

 

[Grace777x70]

"Did the Law ever love me? Did the Law ever sacrifice itself for me? Did the Law ever die for me? On the contrary, it accuses me, it frightens me, it drives me crazy. Somebody else saved me from the Law, from sin and death unto eternal life. That Somebody is the Son of God (Who loved me and gave Himself for me). Hence, Christ is no Moses, no tyrant, no lawgiver, but the Giver of grace, the Savior, full of mercy….. Visualize Christ in these His true colors. I do not say that it is easy. Even in the present diffusion of the Gospel light, I have much trouble to see Christ as Paul portrays Him. So deeply has the diseased opinion that Christ is a lawgiver sunk into my bones. You younger men are a good deal better off than we who are old. You have never become infected with the nefarious errors on which I suckled all my youth, until at the mention of the name of Christ I shivered with fear. You, I say, who are young may learn to know Christ in all His sweetness. For Christ is Joy and Sweetness to a broken heart. Christ is a Lover of poor sinners and such a Lover that He gave Himself for us. Now if this is true, and it is true, then are we never justified by our own righteousness."


–Martin Luther

No wonder the religious mindsets of his day wanted to kill him....

The gospel of the grace of Christ for life and living is offensive to the humanistic D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mind of man....

 

[PeterJens]

A church condition

I know on sunday you will all go off to your churches and sing praise.
You have been doing this most of your lives.

There is a total loyalty to the group and who they are, respect, friendships, contact.

And in all the confusion different lines of thought have their answer. The fact they do
not connect up is never addressed because there is not enough time, and it cannot all
be a fake show, strung together to maximise income against effort outlay.

Any church over 120 people is no longer personal. It is something else. Everything is
summaries and loyalty.

So I really understand. But if you fail to address the foundations you literally have
nothing, not even Christ, no eternity, no salvation, no peace, no truth, no fellowship.

So when things get this fundamental, forgiveness of sin and walking in righteousness,
it is serious stuff. It is all about facts, theology, verses, interpretation, truth.

If it ever gets into hatred and malice, or this is mentioned, those people introducing this
have lost and are refusing to face the truth. But if you are following Jesus you have no
choice. I know this from being a scientist and a christian, going to lectures on evolution
and knowing how anti-christian the lecturers were. Bitterly anti-christian. But it did not
matter, I could still love them through it, and leave intact. So I know this battle and I
know it is hard to put everything on the line, but that is what Jesus asks us to do.

 

[Grandpa]

I got to laugh. Ofcourse sin is not ok, but if it is forgiven sin, even before you commit it,
what the heck, you do not know why you do it, it is self to sort it out, that is Jesus's job,
so let it rip.

I mean no one would ever preach this, but this is the ethic behind the teaching....

what a farce of righteousness, love and purity. It is more like lets say you are a slave to
sin and rub you face in it and just leave you to rot, would be a better summary.

You've just made Grace777's point.

If we aren't working at making our own selves righteous then the carnal mind says you must be getting worse. You must be living in sin.

Not true. We have given up working at making our own selves righteous because the Lord makes us Righteous and He does a much better job than we ever could.

The major fallacy that legalists and humanists try to force on Christianity is that after a person comes to Christ they are even more obligated to work even harder to be more righteous.

But Paul, and every other grace lover, says we aren't made righteous by our work. We are made righteous the same we were saved. By Grace through Faith. In fact, all the things the legalist argues for are completely tied together with Salvation. Righteousness, sanctification, holiness. Why would anyone think they could produce those things themselves after coming to Christ??? Why would anyone think the "formula" changes for everything except salvation???

It's really simple. For the believer.

John 3:27 [FONT=&quot]John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
[/FONT]Matthew 11:28 [FONT=&quot]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

[/FONT]Well, go be doers of the Word. Go get wisdom and understanding. Know that there is only One Place to get it from.

 

[PeterJens]

You've just made Grace777's point.

If we aren't working at making our own selves righteous then the carnal mind says you must be getting worse. You must be living in sin.

Not true. We have given up working at making our own selves righteous because the Lord makes us Righteous and He does a much better job than we ever could.

The major fallacy that legalists and humanists try to force on Christianity is that after a person comes to Christ they are even more obligated to work even harder to be more righteous.

But Paul, and every other grace lover, says we aren't made righteous by our work. We are made righteous the same we were saved. By Grace through Faith. In fact, all the things the legalist argues for are completely tied together with Salvation. Righteousness, sanctification, holiness. Why would anyone think they could produce those things themselves after coming to Christ??? Why would anyone think the "formula" changes for everything except salvation???

It's really simple. For the believer.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Well, go be doers of the Word. Go get wisdom and understanding. Know that there is only One Place to get it from.

This is an interesting point. What is the difference between a legalist and a follower of
Christ?

A legalist has a book of rules and works to obey them to the letter but not understanding
why they are written or there intent. The objective is to not fail in the list.

A follower of Jesus is saying love and communion with God are the solution to the problem
of sin. Out of the fruit of this relationship, victory is born. Now it is like saying a parent needs
a how to love manual towards their children and desiring the best for them.
No, it is the love in their heart and the experience as kids they had that shows them the way.

Jesus is our life, our experience, our light and His words are the way. Because our hearts are
changed loving, doing are no longer the impossible thing they were before.

Now I know from your perspective you are proving the point, while from mine I am proving the
point. This is why we will never meet, because without the heart transformation things will
always look one way and not the other.

It is also why this is not really an argument but about spiritual experiences.

 

[FreeNChrist]

10 ways to spot a legalist:


1. They cheapen grace by focusing on what we must do rather than on what Christ has done.


2. They’ll say nonsensical things like, “Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have.”


3. They are “fruit inspectors” and hypothesize how much spiritual fruit a person must produce in order to truly be saved.


4. They focus on things like turning, trying and crying instead of faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.


5. Their “gospel” could never be falsely accused of being a license to sin (like Paul’s was in Romans 3:8!).


6. They scare others with assertions that, if you preach too much grace, people will run amok.


7. They conveniently avoid or misexegete large portions of gospel-centric New Testament books like Galatians, Romans and John.


8. They blend justification passages with sanctification passages, and then try to get us to drink a heresy smoothie.


9. They bake the same works-based righteousness cake that Mormons and Muslims do, but cover it with evangelical frosting.


10. They use the phrase, “You mean to tell me … ” a lot. Then they create worst case salvation scenarios of those who claim to be Christians, but abuse the grace of God. “You mean to tell me that someone can be saved and still … ?”




- Greg Stier of Dare2Share Ministries

 

[ladylynn]

10 ways to spot a legalist:


1. They cheapen grace by focusing on what we must do rather than on what Christ has done.


2. They’ll say nonsensical things like, “Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have.”


3. They are “fruit inspectors” and hypothesize how much spiritual fruit a person must produce in order to truly be saved.


4. They focus on things like turning, trying and crying instead of faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.


5. Their “gospel” could never be falsely accused of being a license to sin (like Paul’s was in Romans 3:8!).


6. They scare others with assertions that, if you preach too much grace, people will run amok.


7. They conveniently avoid or misexegete large portions of gospel-centric New Testament books like Galatians, Romans and John.


8. They blend justification passages with sanctification passages, and then try to get us to drink a heresy smoothie.


9. They bake the same works-based righteousness cake that Mormons and Muslims do, but cover it with evangelical frosting.


10. They use the phrase, “You mean to tell me … ” a lot. Then they create worst case salvation scenarios of those who claim to be Christians, but abuse the grace of God. “You mean to tell me that someone can be saved and still … ?”




- Greg Stier of Dare2Share Ministries

THAT IS SO TRUE!!! (am sad to say) But wow, that is a right observation to what we humans do!!!!

It takes a revelation of His grace to get out of that works mindset like Mormons and Muslims. They only see work work work so you will be approved.

When the Bible says; Jesus died and rose again for your sins so you cannot work to gain forgiveness, you must look to Jesus Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. In Christ is where we will always be approved and accepted.

 

[PeterJens]

The only way to spot someone not talking from Lord

Their ideas contradict scripture.

I remember people producing lists for the Jezebel spirit. Above is one for legalists.
I created one for following Christ

The believer in christ believes

Conviction of sin - I am a sinner and need to sort things out, liable to judgement -ref(1)
Repentance - I am a sinner who wishes to stop sinning - ref(2)(3)
Faith - I believe in Jesus and the cross I can find forgiveness - ref(4)
Confession - I publicly confess my sin and my faith - ref(4)
Cleansing - The blood washes me clean and empowers me to walk in righteousness -ref(5)
Obedience - Love springs forward in my heart as I start to learn to love all - ref(6)
Conscience - My conscience is a barometer of how I am doing - ref (7)
Purity - We walk in Holiness as the redeemed people of God - ref (8)
Communion - We become one in mind with Christ - ref(9)(10)(11)

(1) rom 3:23 (2) Ezk 18:21 (3) Acts 2:38 (4) Rom 10:9 (5) Heb 9:14 (6) 2 John 1:6
(7) 2 Cor 1:12 (8) 2 Cor 7:1 (9) Col 3:16 (10) 1 cor 6:17 (11) Phil 2:5

Look up the verses to check it out.

Now for me this is the list we all need to check out, and see we know our King.
Until you walk in it and have a clean heart how on earth can you tell what is true.

 

[FreeNChrist]

THAT IS SO TRUE!!! (am sad to say) But wow, that is a right observation to what we humans do!!!!

It takes a revelation of His grace to get out of that works mindset like Mormons and Muslims. They only see work work work so you will be approved.

When the Bible says; Jesus died and rose again for your sins so you cannot work to gain forgiveness, you must look to Jesus Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. In Christ is where we will always be approved and accepted.

I agree, it's spot on. Even legalists, when they are being honest, have to agree.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

Of course Im not surprised to see a thread that asks why people believe grace folk live in sin turn into those who dont believe the osas teaching rely on themselves for salvation : p

They claim that those who dont agree with them just toss them all into the same group, but then do the exact same with those who disagree with them : p

 

[eph610]

3. They are “fruit inspectors” and hypothesize how much spiritual fruit a person must produce in order to truly be saved.

Guys that say that fruit inspection does not matter, in regards to salvation or relationship with Jesus, often times have no fruit at all.....or understand proper and rightful discernment from the Holy ghost, all Pastors should pray for and receive...

Perry Noble loved preaching this and so do many others. Perry also added as do many others, that Fruit of any kind is not only NOT a indication of salvation, but also not a good indication of relationship with Jesus Christ....

A few months ago Perry was removed from the pulpit, by his own elders, for being addicted to Alcohol...His whole church lamented how well he "hid" his condition.....I wonder how many in the church or on church staff properly discerned his fruit was indicating he was a Alcoholic? Especially those like me, who have been delivered from alcohol abuse...and did not say a thing, because meh, Fruit is not really an indicator of Pastors salvation or his relationship with Jesus...

I am not saying or suggesting Perry was not saved, not am I saying drinking is a SIN.

What I am against and saying is the grace movement saying fruit does not indicate salvation or relationship with Jesus....are out of order and wrong. They are also Biblically and Theologically in the spirit of error. The Bible says that no man is able to call Jesus Lord, but by the Holy Ghost and it is his fruit they so easily dismiss....

I am a grace teacher and preacher and get accused quite often of giving my people a license to sin by legalists, but on this issue I am probably a fruit inspector, because Jesus commanded me to be...

 

[Grace777x70]

There will be fruit of some kind as in Gal. 5:22-23 talks about in a true believers life after coming to Christ.

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

 

[ladylynn]

There will be fruit of some kind as in Gal. 5:22-23 talks about in a true believers life after coming to Christ.

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

This is by far one of the best posts you have ever posted Bruce! Just came in from outside and popped on the computer finding this post of yours. I can't think of one more thing to add and pray that the Lord uses your post to minister to those in need.

There are MANY hurting Christians who do not know how to get out of the cycle of addiction. Receiving the proper nutrients to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ WILL give the believer the ability IN HIM to do all things because; we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us., There is redemption in every area only IN Christ and no one else.

 

[eph610]

There will be fruit of some kind as in Gal. 5:22-23 talks about in a true believers life after coming to Christ.

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

Good response my friend,
I do believe an orange tree and almost any fruit tree does develop flower blossoms, before they mature and grow fruit, do they not? Some blossoms will come forth from some fruit trees even if the tree is in a dying state....

In the case of an orange tree and some other other fruit trees you can smell the fragrance of the fruit even before flowering blossoms or fruit appear...

I do agree we must teach them the abundance of grace and gift of righteousness and that salvation comes through Christ and him alone...


I would like to clarify that I am fruit inspector of relationship with Jesus, not salvation...I think most will agree that we must smell or see the fruit of relationship with Jesus of people....If you see or do not see that, then its time to sit down one on one and find out why

 

[eph610]

The teaching promotes sin. we all sin and fall short. the question is what is the object of our faith. Faith properly placed will produce good fruit and a closer walk with Him. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear let them see and hear. Amen

Did you ever stop to consider that when Paul was speaking about all that sinned and fall short is talking about a condition and not an ongoing problem?

You only continue to fall short and sin, because you actively chose to fall short and sin...SIN is not some power you are helpless over....and the devil makes you do....

 

[Grace777x70]

This is by far one of the best posts you have ever posted Bruce! Just came in from outside and popped on the computer finding this post of yours. I can't think of one more thing to add and pray that the Lord uses your post to minister to those in need.

There are MANY hurting Christians who do not know how to get out of the cycle of addiction. Receiving the proper nutrients to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ WILL give the believer the ability IN HIM to do all things because; we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us., There is redemption in every area only IN Christ and no one else.

Amen.....well said Lady...we need Christ and we should be preaching Christ to all of us so that we can grow up in Him. He is our life.

 

[Grace777x70]

Good response my friend,
I do believe an orange tree and almost any fruit tree does develop flower blossoms, before they mature and grow fruit, do they not? Some blossoms will come forth from some fruit trees even if the tree is in a dying state....

In the case of an orange tree and some other other fruit trees you can smell the fragrance of the fruit even before flowering blossoms or fruit appear...

I do agree we must teach them the abundance of grace and gift of righteousness and that salvation comes through Christ and him alone...

I agree....and there are some of us that need to be disciplined by the Lord so that we grow up in Christ and also not defile the others around us.

All unrepentant ungodly behavior needs to be addressed in some fashion and in those cases we need to be led by the Spirit of the Lord on how that is done.

Galatians 6:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Guys that say that fruit inspection does not matter, in regards to salvation or relationship with Jesus, often times have no fruit at all.....or understand proper and rightful discernment from the Holy ghost, all Pastors should pray for and receive...

Perry Noble loved preaching this and so do many others. Perry also added as do many others, that Fruit of any kind is not only NOT a indication of salvation, but also not a good indication of relationship with Jesus Christ....

A few months ago Perry was removed from the pulpit, by his own elders, for being addicted to Alcohol...His whole church lamented how well he "hid" his condition.....I wonder how many in the church or on church staff properly discerned his fruit was indicating he was a Alcoholic? Especially those like me, who have been delivered from alcohol abuse...and did not say a thing, because meh, Fruit is not really an indicator of Pastors salvation or his relationship with Jesus...

I am not saying or suggesting Perry was not saved, not am I saying drinking is a SIN.

What I am against and saying is the grace movement saying fruit does not indicate salvation or relationship with Jesus....are out of order and wrong. They are also Biblically and Theologically in the spirit of error. The Bible says that no man is able to call Jesus Lord, but by the Holy Ghost and it is his fruit they so easily dismiss....

I am a grace teacher and preacher and get accused quite often of giving my people a license to sin by legalists, but on this issue I am probably a fruit inspector, because Jesus commanded me to be...

Which just proves that good fruit can be faked.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

There will be fruit of some kind as in Gal. 5:22-23 talks about in a true believers life after coming to Christ.

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like.

We who are truly "in Christ" know it does not look like this--->>>>

Originally Posted by BenFTW

All in all, why do we even want to sin less at all? VVhat gain is there in sinning less? The question, I guess, is what significance is there in us sinning less or even not at all?

Originally Posted by ladylynn
We all "sin willfully" in our hearts and minds every day.

Originally Posted by Grace777x70 “So, we are all in trouble because we all have willfully sinned.”

Originally Posted by Grace777x70 “So we all have wilfully sinned and are going to your hell now?....okie dokie..... ”

Originally Posted by Grace777x70....if you are in fact in Christ - you would be in His presence despite your wilful sinning.

This truth applies to all of us.

This same cult following of JP's also claims to be "perfect" like Christ upon a mere "self profession", clearly there seems to be a contradiction between what Christ's righteousness and perfection looks like, compared to the reality of their own present sinful condition, manifesting itself also by their false doctrine and confession of wilful and daily sin. Hardly "good fruit" eh?