Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Quasar92]

When Christ comes the next time it will be to destroy this corrupted world with his judgment it will be the last day the second and final resurrection. We have been in the last time for two thousand years, signaled by the renting of the veil the first coming of Christ in the flesh.

Six times in John God uses the phrase "last day" or the day of Christ to indicate the timing.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

My post 275 you quoted in your reply above, is in precisely the chronological, Scriptural order of end times events. Accordingly, Jesus next coming, will be WITH all those who previously died in Him, when He returns for all believers left on earth alive, at His coming. When they will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, before the tribulation begins, as recorded in 1 Thess.14-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28.

From where the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus will take place in heaven, from where Jesus will return to the earth WITH His Church following Him, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in verse 14. Jesus return in His second coming to the earth is well documented in Rev.19:11-21.

Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon with His armies from heaven, against the two beasts, i.e. the Antichrist, the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations allied to them. The two beasts are thrown into the lake of fire and the armies of the ten nations allied to them, are destroyed, according to Rev.10:17-20.

Satan is then thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years Jesus will reign on earth. The first resurrection will then take place of the tribulation martyrs/saints, who will be made priests of Christ and of God, recorded in Rev.1-6. When Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth has ended, Satan will be released, raise a huge army and bring it up against God's people. God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, destroy the army and throw Satan into the lake of fire forever, according to Rev.20:7-10. The second resurrection will take place at the Great White Throne Judgment, 1,000 years after the first one, as recorded in Rev.20:5 and 11-15 This is the end of this age and of the present heaven and earth. God will provide a new heaven and earth, recorded in Rev.21:1. From where I will end this post.

Those are the Scriptural facts. Remember, Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascends into heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Hope this helps.


Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

There are two "tribulations." One began with Jesus, who was the firstfruits, followed by Stephen and 10 of the 12 original disciples. This "tribulation" is not a singular event but rather continues until Christ returns. Some parts of the world experience more tribulation than other parts. Those of us who face tribulation are to receive it like a blessing. They are to forgive those who persecute them as Christ forgave those who killed Him.

The other "tribulation" is the "Great Tribulation" of Israel as Jesus teaches in Mat 24. This tribulation is an event that happens to Israel just prior to the Second Coming of Messiah. There is no other tribulation as it relates to our time in history. There are periods when Tribulation of Christians will be at a very high level as it is now in the middle east and as it was to the Armenians in the early 1900s when the Turks brutally murdered 2.5 million of them. There are periods of relatively low persecution.

So many people on here think some bogey man is coming after some pre-trib rapture to brutalize and kill these so called, "Tribulation Saints." This idea is so false it's embarrassing to read it on here. There are "Tribulation Saints" right now and they are GIANTS in our Kingdom. We are to honor and support them, not denigrate them as many of you are doing.

I firmly believe we are living in Revelation 13 right now. Rev 13 is all about the consolidation of evil in the middle east. Any Christian who gets in the way of Satan's plan will be killed as we are taught here:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Only those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life will worship the Beast.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is happening right now in Syria, Iraq and Iran, the region of the Lion, Leopard and Bear. The Muslim nations will be forced to coalesce around the Beast and Sharia Law. Around 35% of all Muslims agree that non-Muslims should be killed. That means there are half a billion people on this earth that want us Christians DEAD.

 

[garee]

We have been in the "last days" since the Cross. That event was a game changer, the #1 biggest event in mankind, after creation. "Last Days" doesn't refer to how many days are left but rather that salvation has come and we no longer need to look forward to the salvation event, that being the Cross.

Rev 20 tells us that Christ will reign in heaven for 1000 years with the souls of those who have died for Him. The 1,000 years represent "a long time" and as we know, we are coming up on 2,000 years which would make it 7,000 years since Creation (give or take).

Acts 2:17

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

2 Timothy 3:1

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:

Hebrews 1:2

has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds

Christ promise to every believer is that we will suffer persecution and be hated by all nations. Many of us will die for His name's sake. Tribulation is to be seen as a blessing.

Hi PlainWord thanks for offering that.

I would agree that "Last Days" doesn't refer to how many days are left seeing no man knows when he will comes as the last day. The day of Christ, according to the brightness of His coming. He will come as a thief in the night. The same day of the second and final resurrection and judgment day for the unbeliever.

I think it is the same day Job spoke of when in his new incorruptible body he shall see God in another kind of flesh not made of the corrupted rudiments of this world. .

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:25

 

[PlainWord]

Read history much? That was most of the known world in the time of the power of rome.

While they are under great tribulation and distress, and we should pray for them all. That is not anything knew, in fact has been going on since before Christ..

So not sure what your point is.. and to say that tribulation, is the grreat tribulation, would be to push it a little but do you not think?

I am an expert in history, it is a great passion of mine. Those not familiar with history are destined to repeat it, right? Paul didn't speak of just Roman persecution but he also experienced persecution from the Greeks and fellow Jews. The source of the persecution isn't important. We are to treat it the same. We are to rejoice in it and forgive those who persecute us. Is that not Paul's message?

So why are many of us, especially in the US, teaching that the Church is to be raptured away from Tribulation when it is our birthright in Christ. Christ promises us tribulation, not the escape from it. It is a badge of honor to suffer for Christ, yet many teach us to run from it. Tribulation is an absolute PROMISE from Christ to those who follow Him.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

We are commanded to take up our Cross and follow Him. Nowhere does Jesus teach it will be a picnic.

But many of you mock this promise and attempt to run from it. I understand why some of you do. It is because you have mistaken God's Wrath which comes at the Second Coming for the Great Tribulation which Israel will experience which happens first. This lack of understanding has led so many of you down the wrong path in your thinking.

There are so many passages that teach Christians will be persecuted and killed more and more until Jesus returns. Islam has declared an unholy Jihad against us. They are migrating into Europe and America to further their ambition of a one-world religion and Sharia Law. They chant "DEATH TO ISRAEL and DEATH TO AMERICA." They are very serious about this. We know that they will come close to wiping out Israel in the Great Tribulation, but I honestly don't know how far they come to succeed in the Christian nations before Christ returns.

 

[PlainWord]

Hi PlainWord thanks for offering that.

I would agree that "Last Days" doesn't refer to how many days are left seeing no man knows when he will comes as the last day. The day of Christ, according to the brightness of His coming. He will come as a thief in the night. The same day of the second and final resurrection and judgment day for the unbeliever.

I think it is the same day Job spoke of when in his new incorruptible body he shall see God in another kind of flesh not made of the corrupted rudiments of this world. .

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:25

There is a LAST DAY and there are LAST DAYS. We are clearly in the LAST DAYS. We are clearly in the LATTER DAYS of the LAST DAYS. The final DAY, I believe, is the Day Christ returns to restore all things. The last day, is the final day of this present earth age.

 

[Ahwatukee]

awhwatukee

There are a few other things I should clarify/mention following my previous reply.

I am not denying the rapture. I believe it is likely to occur mid tribulation.

I mentioned Scofields influence on Moody. At least one leading writer on the last days studied at the Moody Bible Institute.
The writer was Hal Lindsey of Late Great Planet Earth Fame. His book sold millions of copies, and his views are derived from Scofield.

Morning tanakh,

I understand what you are saying. In fact I believe that a lot people today get their information from you tube, seminars, books, web-sites, hear-say and the like. I believe that these are the "great number of teachers" referred to, to say what their itching ears want to hear. But for myself who has been studying scripture for over 40 years and others who have been doing the same, our conclusions are based on scripture and not on the teachings of men. I personally have zero influence from those people that you mentioned. I want it to be understood that my conclusions are based solely on scripture, of which, these men have had no influence on. Whenever I read anything by anyone, it is to see if they are in line with scripture, not vice versa. What you're talking about above are people who draw their conclusions from reading the teachings of men and taking it as the gospel.

My point is that, scripture does teach a pre-tribulation gathering of the church. One of the biggest problems that I see regarding those who oppose this conclusion, is not understanding the full extent of what Christ did for the believer. Not only is it a matter of scripture that brings me to that conclusion, but understanding what Christ did for us. When he paid the penalty for our sins, he also took the wrath of God that we deserve as a result of our sins, which means that His wrath has been satisfied for the believer. Therefore, for anyone to say that the church is going to go through the time of God's wrath for one, they do not understand the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath and two, they don't understand that believers cannot go through God's wrath because Jesus already did. It would be a slap in the face to the Lord to have taken the wrath upon himself that we deserve and then for believers to go through it anyway, as though God's wrath had not been reconciled. Regarding God's wrath, expositors seriously need to apply the following:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Rev.1:19 is the key to understanding the order in Revelation. Jesus told John to write what he had seen, what is now and what will take place later

What you have seen: Consists of everything from 1:19 back to 1:1, which includes Johns vision of Christ's return to the earth to end the age and his vision of the glorified Christ.

What is now: Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which is also representing the entire church period. Currently, the church period is still in process, which means that we are still in the "what is now."

What will take place later: This is represented by Rev.4:1 where the voice that sounds like a trumpet tells John to come up here and I will show you "what must take place after this." The what must take place after this, is what takes place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period.

These things are spiritually discerned, for they are God's clues. Since the church is still in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write, once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the church, which will end the "what is now," with the "what must take place later" immediately to follow.

Scripture states that "a voice like a trumpet" says come up here and I will show you what must take place after this. I believe that this is no coincidence and that the "voice that sounds like a trumpet" of Rev.4:1 is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16, which is one of the events which takes place in Paul's description of the gathering of the church.

In addition, you have the word Ekklesia translated church being used throughout Revelation chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3. Of note is that, in those same chapters you never see the word Hagios translated Saints. From Rev.4 onward, it is reversed: you have the word Hagios/saints used and the word church is no longer used. This in not a coincidence nor is it something to be pushed aside as unimportant. These are all proofs which God has hidden in His word for those who eagerly search out the answers to these issues.

Now all that said, Rev.4:1 where John is being called up by a voice that sounds like a trumpet, who tells him that he will show him what must take place after this, is prophetic of the church being gathered and is therefore gone before the first seal is opened. Once John/church is called up, we then see twenty-four elders, twelve representing Israel and twelve representing the church, which would also demonstrate that the church is already in heaven. These twelve representing Israel are seen written on the twelve gates of the new Jerusalem and the twelve representing the church are seen written on the twelve foundations of the new Jerusalem.

As I have continued to maintain, it is through the comparing and cross-referencing of scripture that I and others draw our conclusions from. What is happening though, is that instead of understanding what is being taught from those who diligently study these issues, expositors distort the meaning of God's wrath, they slice and dice the first four seals, so that they are not apart of God's wrath, they fail to recognize that there is a difference between common trials and tribulation vs. God's coming unprecedented wrath, they confuse the resurrection of the church with the resurrection of the great tribulation saints and many, many other things that they distort and circumvent.

 

[garee]

garee, this wrath that Paul mentions in Romans is not the wrath that is coming related to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. That wrath that he is talking about is a result of worshiping created things instead of the creator, where he gives them over to their detestable desires, men with men and woman with women, which has already been happening. The wrath that is coming however via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is that coming wrath which will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government.

The above does not mean that they were living in the last days, but that the Lord's return was imminent. My proof of this is, did Paul see the day of Christ, which is also called the day of the Lord, where God's wrath is poured out? No! In fact, the day of the Lord has yet to happen, but is quickly approaching.
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Hi Ahwatukee I see that timing a little differently. Remember the antichrists (many)were already there during that refomation.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; "whereby we know" that it is the last time.


It’s the same wrath shown by a body of corruption,the body of death we live in. It’s how we know we are in the last days called the last time. . It is the result of is a result of worshiping created things like the example of Peter used as one of the antichrists led by Satan shown in in Mathew 16 instead of the creator, where he gives them over to their detestable desires in so much that we do need a man to teach us.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Mat 16:22

Peter was reinstated to show Christ gave Him his grace haven forgiven all of his sins.Where others who were not called to salvation were not and given. They received the strong delusion to believe the lie.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1Jo 2:26

The wrath that is coming however via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is that coming wrath which will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government.

I think the first resurrection signaled by the renting of the vail dismantled all human judgement we know no man after the flesh anymore the shadows according to the ceremonial laws became the substance.

Yes the last day resurrection day, is also judgement day for the unbeliever .There is no condemnation for those in Christ.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[PlainWord]

WRATH OF GOD DOES NOT EQUAL GREAT TRIBULATION (of Israel)

We are not appointed to God's condemnation wrath, which comes at His return. We are, however, appointed to Tribulation (not Israel's, but rather our own). Not all of us suffer tribulation, but many do. We are all one Body of Christ so if part of our body is suffering, the whole body hurts. We are to love and support our real "tribulation saints."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WRATH OF GOD DOES NOT EQUAL GREAT TRIBULATION (of Israel)

We are not appointed to God's condemnation wrath, which comes at His return. We are, however, appointed to Tribulation (not Israel's, but rather our own). Not all of us suffer tribulation, but many do. We are all one Body of Christ so if part of our body is suffering, the whole body hurts. We are to love and support our real "tribulation saints."

Great tribulation is called many things.

Day of wrath
Jacobs trouble
great tribulation

so sorry, But your point does not make any sense,

 

[Jimbone]

WRATH OF GOD DOES NOT EQUAL GREAT TRIBULATION (of Israel)

We are not appointed to God's condemnation wrath, which comes at His return. We are, however, appointed to Tribulation (not Israel's, but rather our own). Not all of us suffer tribulation, but many do. We are all one Body of Christ so if part of our body is suffering, the whole body hurts. We are to love and support our real "tribulation saints."

I agree with this, and I liked it when I heard it like this, tribulation is what the world does to the church here on earth, God's wrath is of course what God does to those who reject Christ offer of forgiveness and redemption here on earth. I agree these are 2 very different things.

 

[PlainWord]

Great tribulation is called many things.

Day of wrath
Jacobs trouble
great tribulation

so sorry, But your point does not make any sense,

Because you are confusing the two. There is the Great Tribulation of Israel as spoken of by Jesus, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, etc. Then there is the Wrath of God which comes in response against those who attacked Israel. This wrath in response to the attack upon Israel is clearest in this passage from Eze 38:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken.

But Jesus discusses the same event in Mat 24:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Only those in Judea are to flee. Christ shortens those days Israel is attacked by coming back. The attack against Israel by Islamic forces will be so great that no nation has ever seen anything like it, nor ever will again.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because you are confusing the two. There is the Great Tribulation of Israel as spoken of by Jesus, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, etc. Then there is the Wrath of God which comes in response against those who attacked Israel. This wrath in response to the attack upon Israel is clearest in this passage from Eze 38:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken.

But Jesus discusses the same event in Mat 24:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Only those in Judea are to flee. Christ shortens those days Israel is attacked by coming back. The attack against Israel by Islamic forces will be so great that no nation has ever seen anything like it, nor ever will again.

1. the great tribulation would be worldwide in scope. Jesus said, If I did not come, then no flesh (life) would survive, He was not talking about just isreal. but about the whole world.

2. Jacobs trouble is also worldwide. It is God punishing the world. for its treatment of Isreal. and causing Isreal to repent and be restored to him.

 

[Ahwatukee]

WRATH OF GOD DOES NOT EQUAL GREAT TRIBULATION (of Israel)

We are not appointed to God's condemnation wrath, which comes at His return. We are, however, appointed to Tribulation (not Israel's, but rather our own). Not all of us suffer tribulation, but many do. We are all one Body of Christ so if part of our body is suffering, the whole body hurts. We are to love and support our real "tribulation saints."

You have a bigger problem PW, for you are one of those that I am always speaking of who doesn't understand what God's wrath is nor its severity or magnitude.

In between right now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth God's wrath must take place not for just Israel and not for just Gentiles, but for the whole planet, Israel and the great tribulation saints having different fates. During this time God will be dealing with everyone.

The wrath of God will be executed via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. That last seven year period will be the time period in which these events of wrath take place. But before those events of wrath take place, the Lord is going to descend from heaven and gather the church, both dead and living, as promised in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.

The wrath of God is not restricted to just the day that he returns as you are proclaiming, but is a specified period of time, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The 5th trumpet alone is 5 months in length. Where in the word of God are you coming to the conclusion that the wrath of God only takes place on the day that he returns, when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as being wrath?

God is going to wrap everything up during that last seven years for Israel in fulfillment of Dan.9:24-27 and the rest of the nations according to Dan.2:31-45 during that same time period. Stop slicing and dicing things. All you are doing is distorting scripture!

We are all one Body of Christ so if part of our body is suffering, the whole body hurts. We are to love and support our real "tribulation saints."

The above is speaking about common trial and tribulation that all believers go through and is not in reference to the unprecedented wrath that is coming.

When you see the living believers removed from the earth, followed by a political figure establishing a seven year contract with Israel, that will be a sign to you that all that we have been proclaiming to you has been the truth. Once he establishes that seven year covenant, you can then count on the abomination being set up in the temple 3 1/2 years later. From there you can just follow along with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for they will take place in chronological order, just as they are numbered. Of course you won't believe these things until they are actually taking place and that because, though you don't know it now, at that time you find out that what you have been teaching has been false.

 

[Quasar92]

1. here are two "tribulations." One began with Jesus, who was the firstfruits, followed by Stephen and 10 of the 12 original disciples. This "tribulation" is not a singular event but rather continues until Christ returns. Some parts of the world experience more tribulation than other parts. Those of us who face tribulation are to receive it like a blessing. They are to forgive those who persecute them as Christ forgave those who killed Him.

1. The contribution here is through the courtesy of PlainWord, a denomination of one. The one and only Scriptural tribulation being discussed here, comes from the seven year, 70th week of Dan.9:27. Amplified by Jesus in Mt.24:15, Mk.13:14 and in Rev.6 through 19.

2. The other "tribulation" is the "Great Tribulation" of Israel as Jesus teaches in Mat 24. This tribulation is an event that happens to Israel just prior to the Second Coming of Messiah. There is no other tribulation as it relates to our time in history. There are periods when Tribulation of Christians will be at a very high level as it is now in the middle east and as it was to the Armenians in the early 1900s when the Turks brutally murdered 2.5 million of them. There are periods of relatively low persecution.

2. There is only ONE seven year tribulation, as recorded in Dan.9:27. It is divided into two time frames, with the final three and a half years of it called the Great Tribulation. Which not only effects Israel, but the entire world, as well. A review of Rev.6 through 19 is crystal clear about the Great Tribulation being world wide, and has not yet taken place, obviously. Nor does the Church, i.e. everyone who belongs to Christ, go through any part of it

3. So many people on here think some bogey man is coming after some pre-trib rapture to brutalize and kill these so called, "Tribulation Saints." This idea is so false it's embarrassing to read it on here. There are "Tribulation Saints" right now and they are GIANTS in our Kingdom. We are to honor and support them, not denigrate them as many of you are doing.

3. The above is trash and does not dignify a response! The Scriptures refute you as previously posted on this and other threads at this site! The tribulation martyrs were all non-believers who are left behind when the Church is caught up to Jesus in the sky, recorded in 1 Thess.4:17, when the Church age ends. As such, the trib. saints do not belong to the Church. They all will pay with their lives by receiving the Lord during the trib.

4. I firmly believe we are living in Revelation 13 right now. Rev 13 is all about the consolidation of evil in the middle east. Any Christian who gets in the way of Satan's plan will be killed as we are taught here:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Only those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life will worship the Beast.

That's a classic joke! The tribulation has not yet begun! Did you forget to read all the seven seal judgments and seven trumpet judgments in Rev.6 through 12 before arriving at Rev.13? Did you read all of Rev.13? They can't come any more naive than you, PlainWord!

[SUP]5. 8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

5. The Church doe not go through any part of the seven year tribulation, as the Scriptures clearly reveal in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

6. This is happening right now in Syria, Iraq and Iran, the region of the Lion, Leopard and Bear. The Muslim nations will be forced to coalesce around the Beast and Sharia Law. Around 35% of all Muslims agree that non-Muslims should be killed. That means there are half a billion people on this earth that want us Christians DEAD.
, according to 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8 and Rev.19:7-8 and 14.

None of the above pertain to the tribulation of Dan.9:27; Mt.24:4-31; Mk13; Lk.21 and the seven seals; seven trumpet and seven bowl judgments in Rev.6 through 16, nor come close to the severity of them. Writing articles of fiction is OK, PlainWord, but not when you try attaching it to the Bible


Quasar92!

 

[Quasar92]

WRATH OF GOD DOES NOT EQUAL GREAT TRIBULATION (of Israel)

We are not appointed to God's condemnation wrath, which comes at His return. We are, however, appointed to Tribulation (not Israel's, but rather our own). Not all of us suffer tribulation, but many do. We are all one Body of Christ so if part of our body is suffering, the whole body hurts. We are to love and support our real "tribulation saints."

Review the following for your deification, PlainWord:

The Tribulation is a future time period when the Lord will accomplish at least two aspects of His plan: 1) He will complete His discipline of the nation Israel (Daniel 9:24), and 2) He will judge the unbelieving, godless inhabitants of the earth (Revelation 6 - 18). The length of the Tribulation is seven years. This is determined by an understanding of the seventy weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; also see the article on the Tribulation). The Great Tribulation is the last half of the Tribulation period, three and one-half years in length. It is distinguished from the Tribulation period because the Beast, or Antichrist, will be revealed, and the wrath of God will greatly intensify during this time. Thus, it is important at this point to emphasize that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are not synonymous terms. Within eschatology (the study of future things), the Tribulation refers to the full seven-year period while the “Great Tribulation” refers to the second half of the Tribulation.

It is Christ Himself who used the phrase "Great Tribulation" with reference to the last half of the Tribulation. In Matthew 24:21, Jesus says, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist. Also, Jesus in Matthew 24:29-30 states, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In this passage, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation (v.21) as beginning with the revealing of the abomination of desolation (v.15) and ending with Christ's second coming (v.30).

Other passages that refer to the Great Tribulation are Daniel 12:1b, which says, "And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time." It seems that Jesus was quoting this verse when He spoke the words recorded in Matthew 24:21. Also referring to the Great Tribulation is Jeremiah 30:7, "Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s distress, But he will be saved from it." The phrase “Jacob’s distress” refers to the nation of Israel, which will experience persecution and natural disasters such as have never before been seen.

Considering the information Christ gave us in Matthew 24:15-30, it is easy to conclude that the beginning of the Great Tribulation has much to do with the abomination of desolation, an action of the Antichrist. In Daniel 9:26-27, we find that this man will make a "covenant" (a peace pact) with the world for seven years (one “week”; again, see the article on the Tribulation). Halfway through the seven-year period—"in the middle of the week"—we are told this man will break the covenant he made, stopping sacrifice and grain offering, which specifically refers to his actions in the rebuilt temple of the future. Revelation 13:1-10 gives even more detail concerning the Beast's actions, and just as important, it also verifies the length of time he will be in power. Revelation 13:5 says he will be in power for 42 months, which is three and one-half years, the length of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation offers us the most information about the Great Tribulation. From Revelation 13 when the Beast is revealed until Christ returns in Revelation 19, we are given a picture of God's wrath on the earth because of unbelief and rebellion (Revelation 16-18). It is also a picture of how God disciplines and at the same time protects His people Israel (Revelation 14:1-5) until He keeps His promise to Israel by establishing an earthly kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).



Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

You have a bigger problem PW, for you are one of those that I am always speaking of who doesn't understand what God's wrath is nor its severity or magnitude.

It is you who doesn't understand. You equate God's Wrath to the Great Tribulation of Mat 24:21. You are flat out wrong to do this!!

In between right now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth God's wrath must take place not for just Israel and not for just Gentiles, but for the whole planet, Israel and the great tribulation saints having different fates. During this time God will be dealing with everyone.

God uses the attack upon Israel (the Great Tribulation) as a wake up call to them to return to Him as He has done so many times before. But just because He allows it doesn't mean he condones those doing the attacking. He is furious with them. The bowls are poured out against those who attacked Israel.

Get something straight - the Attack upon ISRAEL spoken of by Jesus is NOT the wrath of God.

The wrath of God will be executed via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. That last seven year period will be the time period in which these events of wrath take place. But before those events of wrath take place, the Lord is going to descend from heaven and gather the church, both dead and living, as promised in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.

This is completely false. This is your interpretation but you are wrong because you have combined the Great Tribulation of Israel into the Wrath of God when they are separate, but sequential events as I have showed you time and time again.

The wrath of God is not restricted to just the day that he returns as you are proclaiming, but is a specified period of time, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

You speak from ignorance. There is no passage that tells us that seals, trumpets and bowls are judgments which take place during a 7 year period. They aren't even all judgments. There is judgment coming at the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and all the bowls.

when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as being wrath?

They are NOT all referred to as being wrath. Show me the verse that says this. You cannot so you made it up.

God is going to wrap everything up during that last seven years for Israel in fulfillment of Dan.9:24-27 and the rest of the nations according to Dan.2:31-45 during that same time period. Stop slicing and dicing things. All you are doing is distorting scripture!

You are the one distorting. Dan 9:24-27 is over. Dan 11:31-45 is future and applies to Israel. Dan 12:11 teaches of a 1,290 bad period for Israel starting with the defiling (or destruction) of the Wailing Wall followed by 45 days of Great Tribulation followed by the Wrath.

The Church isn't found in Daniel.

The above is speaking about common trial and tribulation that all believers go through and is not in reference to the unprecedented wrath that is coming.

Tell that to our brothers and sisters in Syria and Iraq who are being beheaded right now. John speaks of them in Rev 20. Tell these saints that they are experiencing "common trial and tribulations." I encourage you and everyone who reads this to watch this short 5 min video.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...ccfaa5f13059d0d4c0f11104bf03f599&action=click

Get your head out of the sand and watch what is happening to our brothers and sisters and stop denigrating them. They are in full blown Tribulation right now!! There is no parsing tribulation like you do.

When you see the living believers removed from the earth, followed by a political figure establishing a seven year contract with Israel, that will be a sign to you that all that we have been proclaiming to you has been the truth.

This is pure fantasy. This is not taught in the Bible. It is a fabrication found primarily in the US and places where this doctrine was spread. No Christian in the middle east believes in a pre-trib rapture because they are in the tribulation now. Contract with Israel, what a joke.

Once he establishes that seven year covenant, you can then count on the abomination being set up in the temple 3 1/2 years later.

LOL. You crack me up. What temple??? I don't see any temple. It's the FORTRESS of the sanctuary, not the sanctuary itself. Read Dan 11:31. The fortress is the wall that used to go around the temple.

From there you can just follow along with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for they will take place in chronological order, just as they are numbered

I guess you haven't been following along very much because we are in the fourth seal, fourth trumpet now.

 

[PlainWord]

It is Christ Himself who used the phrase "Great Tribulation" with reference to the last half of the Tribulation. In Matthew 24:21, Jesus says, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist. Also, Jesus in Matthew 24:29-30 states, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In this passage, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation (v.21) as beginning with the revealing of the abomination of desolation (v.15) and ending with Christ's second coming (v.30).

Let's take this first. You have it mostly right. This takes place in Israel. However, the "Abomination of Desolation" is NOT the so-called AntiChrist. It is something set up at the Wailing Wall, some kind of talking Idol to be worshiped. Those who refuse will be killed.

"telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived."

I believe this is the A of D. All living in Judea will be forced to come out and worship this idol which speaks. Remember, 1,290 days before this happens, the same Wailing Wall will be defiled ending prayers there.

The GT of Israel indeed begins when the A of D is set up. But this is NOT THE WRATH OF GOD. The Wrath of God is in response. This one point is why you guys have invented the Pre-Trib rapture.

The Church isn't going anywhere until Christ returns after the GT of Israel. There is no need for it to go anywhere. We are to remain the salt and light until the LIGHT returns.

 

[tanakh]

You have been told many times,we do not read time magazine,or whatever your latest straw man is,to receive what we glean from the bible.

You like that little game huh?

You ever pick up a bible and read it?

That smear job by you and others is so nasty.

But you guys bring zero. So you get personal out of frustration huh?

No matter how you and others slice it,you are demonizing those that watch and wait for The BRIDEGROOM.

You belittle us. You mock the bridegroom and the bride

I am part of the Bride. This tirade against me and those who happen to hold a different view from yourself is a classic case of the Pot calling the kettle black as far as mocking is concerned. You should read some of your own threads

 

[garee]

Only those in Judea are to flee. Christ shortens those days Israel is attacked by coming back. The attack against Israel by Islamic forces will be so great that no nation has ever seen anything like it, nor ever will again.

Judea represents those who walk by the faith of Christ, not seen, an not after their own experiences as that seen. The body of Christ in respect to our husband as His eternal bride is typified by Israel. The attack on Christianity is worldwide. A Jew is not one outwardly but one born again who Christ dwells in us.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[Quasar92]

Let's take this first. You have it mostly right. This takes place in Israel. However, the "Abomination of Desolation" is NOT the so-called AntiChrist. It is something set up at the Wailing Wall, some kind of talking Idol to be worshiped. Those who refuse will be killed.

"telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived."

I believe this is the A of D. All living in Judea will be forced to come out and worship this idol which speaks. Remember, 1,290 days before this happens, the same Wailing Wall will be defiled ending prayers there.

The GT of Israel indeed begins when the A of D is set up. But this is NOT THE WRATH OF GOD. The Wrath of God is in response. This one point is why you guys have invented the Pre-Trib rapture.

The Church isn't going anywhere until Christ returns after the GT of Israel. There is no need for it to go anywhere. We are to remain the salt and light until the LIGHT returns.

The Scriptural proof refuting you, of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John, and Paul:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

The tribulation will be world wide, refuting you, as thoroughly described in the following. Much to long to post here.

Zoe's Christian Q+A: Who will survive the Tribulation?

Scripturalproof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

A Scriptural chronological step by step order of end times events:

The chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums


Quasar92