Which Bible?

[Dino246]

The more words are changed or replaced, the more potential for ambiguity.

Ambiguity... that concept can be used for or against the KJV. Because the KJV is older and familiar to many, some argue that anything other than the KJV "causes" ambiguity. Same argument for variant translations of individual words, as given in footnotes... which some KJVO proponents decry as unnecessary or even evil. This is invalid given that the 1611 KJV had footnotes with variant translations.

There is often more than one word in a given language which accurately translates a single word from another language, so it is quite legitimate to use a different word in certain cases. It is not valid to claim that a passage translated slightly differently is "wrong" on this basis alone. Also, words may not have single-word equivalents. Greek has "wise" as a verb; English needs "make wise".

When the KJV is upheld as the standard against which newer English translations are compared, some will say it is "better". However, when both newer and KJV are held against a common standard of the body of manuscripts, the comparison of newer against KJV collapses completely. If the KJV-only proponents could understand and accept this logic it would undo much of the confusion and argument.

 

[SunsSunny]

Some men and women who have a contentious spirit will defeat their ears to sound logic. They will see what they want to see, read what they want to read and ignore the wisdom which shouts from the rooftops and opportunity given to them to repent. They seek to further their own selfish ambition and incite a spirite of strife and conflict within the church. They come dressed as scholars, erudites, wise men, seeking to puff themselves up and enlighten those who are in darkness when they themselves have darkened minds which reject the light of Christ for the sake of childish disputes.

Those of us who seek to reconcile and edify find our words are useless. They will grab a subtext or parenthetical note in our message and yet miss the BOLDLY LARGE PRiNT MSG we hope to deliver for the salvation of their souls.

i believe it is best to leave things be and not play into their hands with further debate. A cause is lost when a pig returns to his wallowing and tries to drag down the spotless bride of Christ with him. But God sees our hearts and the piercing arrow of conviction with lead a righteous man to repentence and a wretched man to harden his heart further.

i write with sorrow yet joy, for the children of God, none shall take from His hand. And we have a joy that cannot be stolen , a understanding that cannot be dissolved, a peace that endures through trial tribulation and strife.

peace to you all in this forum post. May the Spirit of God lead you to all truth and love.

blessed be the name of the Lord ! Praise him for his enduring love!

 

[KJV1611]

Oh boy lol. Your name is kjv1611. I'll answer for you on two accounts thought I don't quite know for sure. Google is aviable for cross reference.

1. The time Jesus asked Peter three times do you love me.
he used agape the first two times and Peter responded with lord I phileo you. So,e theologians argue that the 2nd time was to challenge Peter to rise up and in faith declare that he agapes Jesus. The third time Jesus used phileo, and Peter wept saying lord you know I phileo you. Some theologians says it broke peters heart that he only phileoed jesus and that Jesus knew it... Yet Jesus encouraged him still using peters confession of faith as a rock and pillar for the church
2. When Jesus is said to have prayed for the people during his crucifixion (you'll have to find the verse) , the word prayed implied he did it only once but the Greek which has a progressive? Past tense implies that he Continued to pray for them adding depth to his compassion.

and now my message to you : just love and hug and smile. Look at 1 co 8:1. Knowledge makes arrogant but love edifies some translations say puffs up some say makes pride... Same meaning but knowledge is nothing and will pass away!!!! What remains is faith hope and love! The greatest of which is love !!! Faith in Jesus not a translation! Hope in Jesus not a translation! Love in Jesus.... How do you even love a translation lol???

Love ve in action is what builds unity in the kingdom!

If a 5 year old said to you for God so loved the world he gave his son so that we can live , is it impertinent that you add begotten ??? No!!! Jesus was given and a young pure mind understands that!!!!

The he gospel is simple and pure, and he language of love is absolutely ineffable ! You think English can handle love???? Of course not! That's why the spirit intercedes in utterings and groans too deep for us to understand!!!

My brother in Christ , I employ beseech and exhort ou to love as a priority and to not give thought to such trivial matters as translation!

What is the difference? One is to love in a social or moral sense and the other is to be a friend or have affection for. Again I can't tell any difference between the two loves.

ἀγαπάωagapáō, ag-ap-ah'-o; perhaps from ἄγαν ágan (much) (or compare H5689); to love (in a social or moral sense):—(be-)love(-ed). Compare G5368.

φιλέωphiléō, fil-eh'-o; from G5384; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while G25 is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as G2309 and G1014, or as G2372 and G3563respectively; the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head); specially, to kiss (as a mark of tenderness):—kiss, love.

 

[KJV1611]

Ambiguity... that concept can be used for or against the KJV. Because the KJV is older and familiar to many, some argue that anything other than the KJV "causes" ambiguity. Same argument for variant translations of individual words, as given in footnotes... which some KJVO proponents decry as unnecessary or even evil. This is invalid given that the 1611 KJV had footnotes with variant translations.

There is often more than one word in a given language which accurately translates a single word from another language, so it is quite legitimate to use a different word in certain cases. It is not valid to claim that a passage translated slightly differently is "wrong" on this basis alone. Also, words may not have single-word equivalents. Greek has "wise" as a verb; English needs "make wise".

When the KJV is upheld as the standard against which newer English translations are compared, some will say it is "better". However, when both newer and KJV are held against a common standard of the body of manuscripts, the comparison of newer against KJV collapses completely. If the KJV-only proponents could understand and accept this logic it would undo much of the confusion and argument.

Dino I'm sure you know that there are 2 manuscript lines that vary greatly from one another, how do you determine which of those manuscripts is right and which is wrong when they disagree?

 

[SunsSunny]

My dear friend I shall respond to you for the last time. Though I wonder if you truly wanted to know the answer why didn't you google it for yourself. The 4 loves are Eros stroge phileo and agape. Eros is erotic love, stronger is a love which must be based on circumstance such as between a father and son or a citizen and a dictator which he must tolerate. Phileo is a deep friendship love seeded in (mutual) respect.

agape is the epitome of love, the height of romance the fruit of sacrifice. It is unconditional love. A reckless, stupid, love that simply makes no sense. It is love that sacrifices, that keeps no record of wrongs, that overcomes . The love which Jesus showed us while we were yet sinners to win our hearts. The love that says I love, no matter what! If you spit on me, slap me, hate me I love you.

jesus has this love for you! Accept it! Again ! And ask him to teach you , and me ! How to unconditionally, sacrificial love with the same agape that he gave us to cause our treacherous hearts to beat to the tune of obedience, gentleness, kindness, charity, peacemaking, reconciliation love! Love love love! Agape is perfect love , it is the love of God, it is the best word available in Greek to describe the love that created the heavens and earth. Put down your internet pen , go love now my friend !

 

[fredoheaven]

Yea I hear some hearts beats so young and tender and I agree we need to love each other and respect each other, it is because that what the Bible says and that’s the nature of God for God is love. But remember, God is also just! Jesus said “the same word will judge him” so when the words of God are being maligned, altered, changed, amended, corrupted, degraded, tainted, polluted, adulterated etc.,… do we think God is honored? The word of God “is quick and powerful and is sharper than any two-edged sword…” God demands justice and peace, that’s right and it is to be found in the Holy Bible. The Bible says, “God is not a respecter of person” For God is true and if God is true, His words must be true. So far, I believe KJV is the pure, preserved, it is “…scripture given by the inspiration of God...” So what about you?

God bless

 

[KJV1611]

My dear friend I shall respond to you for the last time. Though I wonder if you truly wanted to know the answer why didn't you google it for yourself. The 4 loves are Eros stroge phileo and agape. Eros is erotic love, stronger is a love which must be based on circumstance such as between a father and son or a citizen and a dictator which he must tolerate. Phileo is a deep friendship love seeded in (mutual) respect.

agape is the epitome of love, the height of romance the fruit of sacrifice. It is unconditional love. A reckless, stupid, love that simply makes no sense. It is love that sacrifices, that keeps no record of wrongs, that overcomes . The love which Jesus showed us while we were yet sinners to win our hearts. The love that says I love, no matter what! If you spit on me, slap me, hate me I love you.

jesus has this love for you! Accept it! Again ! And ask him to teach you , and me ! How to unconditionally, sacrificial love with the same agape that he gave us to cause our treacherous hearts to beat to the tune of obedience, gentleness, kindness, charity, peacemaking, reconciliation love! Love love love! Agape is perfect love , it is the love of God, it is the best word available in Greek to describe the love that created the heavens and earth. Put down your internet pen , go love now my friend !

I'm not sure where you get that definition of agape. Here's what I get and I really don't see any difference between it and Phileo. Here's what Mr. Strong thought it meant.

ἀγάπη agápē, ag-ah'-pay; from G25; love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast:—(feast of) charity(-ably), dear, love.

 

[fredoheaven]

My dear friend I shall respond to you for the last time. Though I wonder if you truly wanted to know the answer why didn't you google it for yourself. The 4 loves are Eros stroge phileo and agape. Eros is erotic love, stronger is a love which must be based on circumstance such as between a father and son or a citizen and a dictator which he must tolerate. Phileo is a deep friendship love seeded in (mutual) respect.

agape is the epitome of love, the height of romance the fruit of sacrifice. It is unconditional love. A reckless, stupid, love that simply makes no sense. It is love that sacrifices, that keeps no record of wrongs, that overcomes . The love which Jesus showed us while we were yet sinners to win our hearts. The love that says I love, no matter what! If you spit on me, slap me, hate me I love you.

jesus has this love for you! Accept it! Again ! And ask him to teach you , and me ! How to unconditionally, sacrificial love with the same agape that he gave us to cause our treacherous hearts to beat to the tune of obedience, gentleness, kindness, charity, peacemaking, reconciliation love! Love love love! Agape is perfect love , it is the love of God, it is the best word available in Greek to describe the love that created the heavens and earth. Put down your internet pen , go love now my friend !

Just being a gnat strainer here or needed somehow a further clarification which seems that God's loves seems to be reckless,stupid and simply makes no sense? What do you mean? I don't just understand? Hope you will be able to win my heart using scriptures please.

Thanks and God bless

 

[fredoheaven]

Hi to all,

The KJV side notes

For the sake of clarity in regards to the side notes on the KJV where upon KJ translators have made is not the same as footnotes of today.

With the discovery of John Bois Notes, who is said to be one of the King’s translators tells plainly what had happened to the text translation. Alternate readings are showed with a mark of flower or with a mark of “OR”. What the 1611 readings of text was produced under careful study, discussion and debates by the Committee and in the final analysis words translated of the 1611 is the FINAL one and the “alternate” readings are the REJECTED words. Anyone can check this record by consulting the Cambridge University Press or do google it for sure.

God bless…

 

[posthuman]

Two thoughts:
1. KJV is only bible to my knowledge that is NOT copyrighted.
2. KJV version has a 3rd grade reading comprehension, all other versions due to the added by subtraction ambiguity contribute to more confusion and land around the 5th grade and up reading comprehension.

neither of these statements are true.

the KJV is copyrighted; it was produced for the crown of England and the Cambridge University Press still holds copyright on it.

KJV-only websites cherry-pick exactly one verse ((usually Genesis 1:1)) to compare reading-level scores with other translations into English, but when taken as a whole ((i.e. more than one single verse chosen to make the KJV look favorable)) that picture is much different; the KJV ranks among the most difficult of the English translations.

 

[posthuman]

I'd say the translations do add/remove even from the book of Revelation. Not making a doctrine out of it, just saying it's important to me.

If we really want to take that seriously shouldn't we all be learning to read Greek?
((i want to))
Even the KJV is still a translation out of the native language of the scripture into ours.

But i won't say it's absolutely necessary -- what a good thing, that God has put in each and every one of us a Teacher, His Spirit, yes? See, He cares for us all - even the illiterate, and those who don't speak English

 

[posthuman]

it may be helpful to consider what a "language" is

.. a structured set of equivalence relations used to communicate ideas ..

can we agree on that definition?

if every language is a tool to communicate ideas, then it is the ideas that are the word of God, not the language itself, just as much as what you are reading and hopefully comprehending right now is not the pixels on whatever screen you are looking at, but the message i am communicating to you.

The scriptures then, being written in an human language, all of which were confused at Babel long ago, are not the actual text themselves, but the message of God and His dealings with men - and whatever language your human mind comprehends them in, it is not the language that is key, but the substance of what is written. You can put these paragraphs into any translating tool, and if the tool is not corrupt, and the algorithm used is sound, then the message itself is not distorted, and the transmission of the idea itself remains just as sound.

You KJV-ites fail to recognize that a rose smells just as sweet, and is still a rose, even if you have no name for it, and that the grass and the sky and the seas are comprehended by people of every language, and even by babes and morons who have no language with which to speak of such things. Warm, wet, cold, love, fear, honor, embarrassment, endurance -- all these things transcend human speech -- but does the gospel of our risen Lord not transcend the base communication of mortals?

There is the forest, and there are the trees, but can a man be so stuck focused on the letters

T,

R,​

E,​

&​

E​

... so that he can see none of the actual living things in the glades?

 

[posthuman]

There is often more than one word in a given language which accurately translates a single word from another language, so it is quite legitimate to use a different word in certain cases. It is not valid to claim that a passage translated slightly differently is "wrong" on this basis alone. Also, words may not have single-word equivalents. Greek has "wise" as a verb; English needs "make wise".

If one reads the preface to the 1611 translation, you find that the translators purposefully used various English words to translate exactly the same Greek and Hebrew words, for the sake of the beauty of variation, as they felt it was equally valid - understanding the nature of language itself - and also believed it mirrored the diversity in God's own creation.

This was a departure from previous translations, and that fact, they specifically addressed in the preface. They wrote that ((paraphrasing)) if the king gives a speech, and it is translated into Dutch for the benefit of his subjects who do not comprehend the king's own native language, it remains the king's speech, no matter how skillfully or ineptly it is translated.
In keeping with this sentiment, they expressly wrote that they fully expected, desired and approved of continual revision to the work of translation in order to better transmit as it is the King's speech to His subjects, that they may comprehend it well.

Doesn't God Himself 'translate' His own message to you in ways that your own heart best understands? And doesn't the Spirit bear witness to your own hearts and souls in languages that can't be spoken?

 

[fredoheaven]

Well the nature itself exults God, the trees in the field brings glory to the Creator. God’s words scripted, that contains letters is/are “…given by the inspiration of God…” Jesus said even the “title”, the smallest jot of the Hebrew letters will not pass away. For how can we know the love of Christ that passeth understanding, the grace of God, the cross, the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, even the Gospel, the Godhead and everything else without His words verbal and written. No clear Message to be received without clear words. But what about those dumb people? Still message through signs transmitted were based on the written words script with letters.

Well, it is a very good thing on the matter of “king’s speech” is still the same in a language translated in other tongues but the question still remain, are those translations gives the exact meaning of the king’s speech? So far I haven’t seen one in our Filipino language/dialects that gives the exact translations. For either it has been translated from the Modern English versions and not from the original tongues/ language. Even attempts to translate the KJV here by many local missionaries and pastors does not give the exact rendering as read in your English language.

Nowadays, even the very remote place here in the Philippines, I should say that most people knows how to read and speak English not to be compared of course with those who speak native but at the least we know it. YES! Any “Formal equivalency” translated in Tagalog or Ilocano, Cebuano, Pangasinan, Kapangpangan, Ibaloi, Itneg, Kiangan, Hilogaynon, Bisayan dialect etc, are just equivalent to nothing but the same corruption. Oh how I wish to have one. It is really my desire and a prayer that there will be also a pure Bible for the Filipino people but it isn’t happening yet.

So meantime, I stick with your English Bible not to patronize yours but I see it and read it with my eyes and as I believed KJV is the words of God, pure, preserved and is given by the inspiration of God. So if one think is holding his Bible verbally, infallible words without admixture of errors so be it but as the OP is concerned to “Which Bible” I recommend KJV.

God bless

 

[ZEEK]

I believe, though haven't studied it, that Ivan Panin found a numerical proof for the correct original.

NRSV is the best translation I know of.

 

[fredoheaven]

I believe, though haven't studied it, that Ivan Panin found a numerical proof for the correct original.

NRSV is the best translation I know of.

Sounds interesting, are you able to demonstrate it?

thanks

 

[fredoheaven]

Ya, i fail to comprehend it, you have not yet studied it... okay

 

[ZEEK]

It is honestly something I haven't studied

Ivan Panin

 

[fredoheaven]

okay, no problem, study it first then share it with us maybe we can learned something into it.

God bless

 

[ZEEK]

The link is a good introduction though