An Earnest Inquiry

[QuestionTime]

I am simply seeking others who have been touched by the Holy Spirit and given new desires.

I created a thread on this very issue Dane_G87:

You Can Love The Lord With All Your Heart, Soul, Strength and Mind: http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=12489&highlight=love+lord+heart

I'm not quite there yet, but there are others here who I believe are, and you'll see them in the thread above.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

I'm confused... what is the true purpose of your enquiry? Somehow, I don't think you are simply asking for fellowship. It feels to me that the primary objective is to weed out the goats from the sheep on CC.

Well, I prefer to fellowship with Sheep - not Goats - so perhaps a little weeding here and there isn't a bad deal.

I think though as people go along posting in various threads, you begin to quickly notice people of a like mind.

Quest

 

[dane_g87]

Wow well this is an encouragement. Right as I was thinking about giving up on CC I get these encouraging posts. That's what I am looking for is encouragement, fellow brothers/sisters in Christ. And yes questiontime it is true that there is indeed preference with sheep over goats - genuine believers who love the Lord over people who are Christian on the outside but inside are perverse. But the thing is oopsies was accusing me of using my inquiry as a malicious "cover up" in order to conceal my intent of weeding out sheep and goats. Like I said that was not my intention and his accusation was false, and the weeding out will happen ultimately by the hand of Christ. But I think that he identified my post explaining biblical discernment/judgment with weeding out the sheep and the goats. I told him that this was a "rabbit trail" if you will as a response to what someone else had said, several months after my original post. And there is a difference between discerning the sheep from the goats and attempting to weed them out. The difference is that Christ has simply commanded us to discern, ie "You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:13-21). There was a church mentioned in Revelation chapter 2 that did not "tolerate evil men, but tested those who called themselves apostles, and found them to be false." They could not have done this without exercising discernment. In Malachi 3:18 we are told that discerning who serves God from the one who does not serve Him is something associated with and resulted by closer intimacy with God. So I think it was because I've mentioned this discernment and quoted the corresponding verses that he thought I was attempting to "weed them out."

And what was my motive for speaking about discernment? I was responding to Dread_Zepellen, who was suggesting that it is not our duty as Christians to exercise judgment or discernment. I was simply trying to correct this error using Scripture, totally independent from my original post.

 

[oopsies]

There, see that wasn't so hard, was it?

It's the way you reply and respond that makes people wonder. And then that comment where you remarked that no one is responding because no one is interested in growing in Christ was absolutely asinine. Says who that I need to fellowship with YOU when YOU request it and that if I don't respond, that means I don't seek Christ out on a regular basis? You? LOL Don't make me laugh.

 

[livingbygrace]

We are all weak. It is not what we can do to be with Christ, but what he can do to bring us closer to him, I believe. To me the highest and most potent thing we have is faith in Christ. If we look to him and trust him to lead us we will get far further than struggling in our natural selves. This is not a sit back and do nothing approach. It is not easy. To trust Christ is working in us when we see nothing but faliure tersts our faith. But if we trust in Jesus we will never be disappointed.

Spurgeon said. 'It is Christ's responsibility to sanctify us, our job is to look to him and trust him. We have to realise we are incable in ourselves, he is holding out his arms to each one of us because he loves us so much. We need to let him take control.

God Bless

 

[dane_g87]

Or simply put in Scripture:

(Philippians 2:12-13) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

(1 Timothy 6:12) Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life

(Acts 24:16) I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.


It is our fight, our struggle; we must work, we must strive, we must fight. All the while giving all credit and glory to God in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. We cannot do this ourselves, we can only do it by the Holy Spirit. But we are called and expected to do it. And yes, like you said, it is not a "sit back and do nothing approach." It is a narrow path of bending over backwards, in fear and trembling, plucking out eyes, severing hands, enduring through trials and tribulations to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Many seek to enter Heaven, but only the violent take it, because it is taken by force. Those who are nonchalant or lazy will get nothing. Jesus said, "Not everyone who calls Me, "Lord" will enter Heaven, but only those who do the will of My Father will enter. Many call Me, "Lord" but I will declare 'Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Our working/striving is not the means or cause of our salvation - God forbid. We are only saved by the grace of God through faith. But this grace is not impotent or powerless. It is powerful and all-consuming, and it reveals itself in certain fruit. Working/striving/doing God's will is the evidence that God has given you grace/salvation. Just as the body without the spirit is death, faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Even the demons believe in Christ, but they are still going to Hell. It is because they do not have the necessary works which serve as evidence for the mercy and grace of God.


And oops - You keep going on trying to point fingers and nitpick me and find excuses - you keep justifying yourself and hiding your sin. Like I said, what you did was wrong and hurtful. I stand ready to forgive.

 

[dane_g87]

There, see that wasn't so hard, was it?

It's the way you reply and respond that makes people wonder. And then that comment where you remarked that no one is responding because no one is interested in growing in Christ was absolutely asinine. Says who that I need to fellowship with YOU when YOU request it and that if I don't respond, that means I don't seek Christ out on a regular basis? You? LOL Don't make me laugh.

That this place (Christian Chat) is filled by a majority of unconverted "religious" or "licentious" people who claim to be Christian but are not is clearly seen and understood by any genuine believer who is acquainted with the God of Scripture and biblical doctrines. This is what I was alluding to when I made that remark that I made. You should look up certain biblical pastors like Paul Washer, Tim Conway, John Piper, John MacArthur, Steve Lawson...and you will get the same message from them, concerning a majority of Christianity being a bunch of lost people on their way to Hell.

My original comment you were referring to:
Not many people have responded...and I am not surprised. So many people want to make the professions and claims of following Jesus. They want the benefits of being a Christian. But they don't want any of the cost of being a Christian! They want to hold onto their sins, their love for the world, their ungodly friends, their ungodly television shows and movies, their sensual clothes, and all their secret sins!

Folks come out of this paganism. It is not Christianity! Christianity is taking up your cross and following after the Lord Jesus Christ. He calls you to repent. REPENT! Do you know not what that means? It's just not a list of things to check off. Repentance involves turning away from everything, from every action, every word, every thought that contradicts the nature, will, and law of God. Oh how many of you who call yourselves Christians have responded to what the Gospel calls men to do!

As you can see I was not judging anybody on the basis that they "didn't want to fellowship with me." I was biblically attacking and exposing the wickedness of hypocritical/apostate Christianity where people make the claim of being a Christian but are far from living or acting like it. And I am not making any of this up because, like the list of pastors I gave, there are many godly, biblical pastors who speak out about these same things. And not only that, but Jesus Christ Himself declared in Matthew 7:13-23 that a MAJORITY of people who CLAIM JESUS as LORD are actually lost and on their way to Hell.

I believe I made it very clear that I was calling and demanding people to repent and come out of apostasy, not "come and fellowship with me or you're not a Christian!" - Again, you've made another false accusation against me, twisted my words, put more words into my mouth, and harmed my reputation.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

Dread,
What do you mean by do not judge others? I know that a majority of "religious" people are self-righteous and judge others hypocritically, criticizing and condemning people who are not just like them. But aside from this wickedness the Scriptures command us many times to judge righteously and exercise discernment; to test all things and all people, to determine who is false, to avoid those who are found to be false.

You also said, "its true that not everyone who says they say they are and act contrary- but Christ works in all of us very differently" - do you realize that this statement goes contrary to what the apostle John declared in his first epistle? Read the book of 1 John. In this book there are various tests that he uses to determine if someone is a false Christian, based on their claims and if they are acting contrary to those claims. He says "those who say they are a Christian and act contrary are liars, deceived, and condemned." Do you see where your statement butts heads with the statements of John the apostle? You say, "it's true some people are hypocrites, but Christ works in all of us" but John says, "If you see a hypocrite who doesn't repent, he does not belong to Christ."

Look at some Scriptures with me if you will.
On Judging Others:
(John 7:24) Jesus said, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." - We have a command here to judge righteously.

(Luke 17:3) Jesus said, "If your brother sins against you, rebuke him;" - Here we are charged by Christ to confront our fellow Christians when we see them fall into sin.

(Matthew 7:15-20) Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits...Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. - Jesus expects us to discern between true ministers and wolves in sheep's clothing, and also true from false disciples, knowing the difference based on their fruit.

(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore put away from yourselves the evil person. - How are you to obey this command, to avoid someone who claims to be a Christian and yet practices immorality, unless you exercise discernment and judgment? Paul even says it is a duty to judge fellow Christians within the church, leaving the judgment of unbelievers/non-Christians outside the church solely to God.

(1 Corinthians 11:31-32) For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. - Again Paul speaks of the duty of judgment within the church. If Christians judge among themselves in the church, they will not be judged/condemned by the Lord. When we are judged by our fellow Christians, it is God chastening us so that we do not continue on in sin, lest we become condemned. Judgment within the church is for our own good

(Revelation 2:2) Jesus said, "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;" - How do you think this church could have found these false apostles to be liars if they hadn't practiced judgment & discernment?

(Romans 16:17-18) Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. - How can you obey this command without exercising discernment/judgment?

1 John Tests

(1 John 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. - Whoever claims to be a Christian and walks in darkness is a liar.

(1 John 2:4) He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. - Whoever claims to be a Christian and doesn't keep God's commandments is a liar.

(1 John 2:9) He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. - Whoever claims to be a Christian and hates his brother is a liar.
(1 John 3:15) Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

(1 John 2:15) Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. - Whoever claims to be a Christian and yet loves the world is a liar and does not have the love of God.

(1 John 3:7-8) Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. - Whoever claims to be a Christian and yet practices sin is actually a child of Satan.

(1 John 3:9-10) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

As you can see all of these Scriptures involve exercising discernment and judgment over people who claim to be Christian and yet act contrary. According to you, we must not speak out against them. According to John/Paul, we not only must speak out, but they are false professors of faith and by all means must be warned because Scripture says they are still in their sins and going to Hell. That's the point of righteous judgment - warning with the hopes of leading someone to repentance that they may be saved. Anyone who judges for any other reason is not practicing righteous judgment.

You know whats funny? You left out one of the most important "judgement" passages.

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Matthew 1-7

This was the basis of my previous post. If you blantantly disagree with it then you're contradicting yourself and the validity of the Bible. Like every situation there is balance. Im not saying what you wrote isn't true, I'm saying you have to be deserning and lead by the Spirit of Christ how to correct people. Love is the most effective way for most people. I think we can all agree that Christians and not are tired of the crazy eyed priest who preaches only hell and demnation. Doesn't mean that there isn't a place for that but you seem to contradict my love idea...which I dont understand.

Also your argument seems to be that Christians cannot struggle or sin or they're not Christians at all. I suggest you study the verses you wrote and also the forgiving power of the Cross.


Yeah people aren't as they seem. I suppose if i knew that you were trying to pick me apart at every single tedious tiny word I should have said: Its true that not everyone who says they say they are and act contrary. Christ works in all of us very differently and we all need time and grace to work through our sin.

I was merely stating that you catch more flies with honey. I think it's wrong to go out barreling into a Christian forum with a "demnation" spirit. You may say its in the name of Christ, but really, is it? Who do you satisfy or help with that kind of attitude? Telling it how it is to help others is a lot more different than to have a self serving "I just gotta tell you whats wrong with you" agenda.

Also you've errored greatly on your last paragraph." According to you, we must not speak out against them."You must not have read my post (not really anyway) because you said that i believe that we shouldn't correct at all. I suggest you re read my post and really pay attention because I didn't say that at all. I discourage highly people to respond to my posts if they dont read them because it frustrates me.

 

[dane_g87]

You know whats funny? You left out one of the most important "judgement" passages.

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Matthew 1-7

This was the basis of my previous post. If you blantantly disagree with it then you're contradicting yourself and the validity of the Bible. Like every situation there is balance. Im not saying what you wrote isn't true, I'm saying you have to be deserning and lead by the Spirit of Christ how to correct people. Love is the most effective way for most people. I think we can all agree that Christians and not are tired of the crazy eyed priest who preaches only hell and demnation. Doesn't mean that there isn't a place for that but you seem to contradict my love idea...which I dont understand.

Also your argument seems to be that Christians cannot struggle or sin or they're not Christians at all. I suggest you study the verses you wrote and also the forgiving power of the Cross.


Yeah people aren't as they seem. I suppose if i knew that you were trying to pick me apart at every single tedious tiny word I should have said: Its true that not everyone who says they say they are and act contrary. Christ works in all of us very differently and we all need time and grace to work through our sin.

I was merely stating that you catch more flies with honey. I think it's wrong to go out barreling into a Christian forum with a "demnation" spirit. You may say its in the name of Christ, but really, is it? Who do you satisfy or help with that kind of attitude? Telling it how it is to help others is a lot more different than to have a self serving "I just gotta tell you whats wrong with you" agenda.

Also you've errored greatly on your last paragraph." According to you, we must not speak out against them."You must not have read my post (not really anyway) because you said that i believe that we shouldn't correct at all. I suggest you re read my post and really pay attention because I didn't say that at all. I discourage highly people to respond to my posts if they dont read them because it frustrates me.

Ah the infamous Matthew 7:1-5. The reason I didn't quote that passage was because that passage has nothing to do with the loving correction intended for repentance that the Bible commands Christians to practice. Please read the context. Who is Jesus talking about when He mentions the "do not judge, lest you be judged" command? He's referring to the Pharisees. The Pharisees were religious hypocrites who were looking for ways to condemn other people in order to make themselves appear more righteous. This is the context of Matthew 7:1-5 and is what Jesus is forbidding.

Now ask yourself this: Am I actively searching for ways to condemn anybody here? Am I looking for ways to make myself appear righteous? The answer to both these questions are a resounding no. I don't want anybody to be condemned. I want as many as possible to be saved. The problem with humanity is that it is condemned and on its way to Hell. The only way out is to repent of their sins and believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore I want people to be saved, and I want to lead them to this required repentance. I want to expose the sin that's prevalent in their lives, and call them to repent. I want to lead them to the cross, and to the Savior Jesus Christ. That is why I expose sin and call people to repent. Secondly, my goal here is not to make myself appear righteous. I already know that I am a wretched person and I have stated this publicly. A Pharisee would never dare to publicly proclaim his own wretchedness, because he literally did not believe that. The Pharisees were blind to their own wickedness. That is why Jesus said not to judge others by trying to take out the speck in their eye, when a log was in their own...the Pharisees' belief in their self-righteousness was that log that blinded them from seeing clearly.

Also, notice a very interesting comment Jesus made in that passage (Matthew 7:5), which you equally ignored. Jesus commanded thus: "Hypocrite! First take out the log of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye." Is Jesus' ultimate intention to rid all of us from any form of correction or removal of sin? Not at all! He wants us to see clearly to remove the specks out of our brothers' eyes. The problem in this instance was self righteousness and condemnatory judging. You cannot judge with righteous judgment (as commanded by Jesus in John 7:24) when these things are a reality in your life (that log).

After all this is said, you can see the reason why I did not quote Matthew 7:1-5 as legitimate, and that you quoting it against me is wrong and a misquoting of Scripture.

 

[dane_g87]

I also want to point another thing out. I never said anything about Christians needing to be perfect. I believe I stated very clearly that the difference between a true Christian from a false one is not perfection, but that the true Christian will be the one struggling; the false Christian will not be worried about it.

 

[dane_g87]

I read your post but I admit I overlooked the part you talked about correcting is good, but not in a critical spirit. I acknowledge how you said I was in error, and indeed I was. So I apologize for my error. But even so, I did not quote Matthew 7:1-5 because I was talking about righteous judgment that is to be done, and commanded, and I was using verses to support that...I was not talking about hypocritical judgment used to condemn people, otherwise that indeed would have been a verse I would have used for support. I hope you see the difference and that my reason was legitimate.

 

[charm1110]

I desire to fellowship with the Lord everyday, I also desire to fellowship with other Christians who are more mature in their faith than I am. It is one of the best ways I can learn. I have been negligent of my relationship with the Lord for quite a few years and now am getting back to developing my relationship with Him. Many lessons I am learning are difficult to put into practice in my daily life. I do struggle with sin and am judgmental and critical of others. My quest here is to become more like Christ .....to Forgive, Love, & Accept myself and others. I often meditate on this and yet am not there yet, I think it is my tendency to be overly critical of others(and myself)that prevents my growth. Being trapped for so long in a vicious circle of negative thinking and feelings has left me a very cynical and bitter man. it doesn't mean I am not a Christian or have no faith just that I need to learn how to grow out of these things and into being the man that God intends me to be.

What Brother Dane has done here for me, is let me know that I need to do my part to learn to discern the truth of the teachings of Christ. That discernment is not automatic but takes effort (again I'm just speaking for myself).

 

[beta7]

hi,
in order to remain strong, you need to feed your spiritual self. how to do that is to read the Bible and pray every day. associate with friends who are christian and strive for righteousness. attend church regularly and try to get involved in youth activities; join the choir, ministry, club etc. hope you have an interesting and wonderful walk with God, and if you should fall never give up cuz God doesn't give up on you. God bless and take care

 

[dane_g87]

I am very glad to hear your testimony charm1110 and I am glad that I have at least done some good in your life. All the desires you have said I desire myself...I desire to find and fellowship with more godly people than I am, because the Bible says "he who walks with the wise will become wise." I am also glad to share with you some very biblical and edifying ministries that I have come across which have blessed me greatly. I know that if you follow along with them you will be blessed as well. First of all you must understand that Jesus declared that a majority of professing Christianity is actually lost and on its way to Hell. Read Matthew 7:13-23 and you will see that Jesus said only "few" find the straight and narrow leading to life with "many" on the broad way leading to destruction. He said that this majority will come to Him on judgment day calling Him, "Lord" but He will tell them to depart because they had practiced lawlessness. "Not everyone who calls Me, 'Lord,' will enter the kingdom of Heaven," says Christ, "but he who does the will of My Father will enter."

Now apply this teaching to your worldview and daily life. When you see Christianity you know from the Lord's own mouth that a majority of it is lost, lawless, and going to Hell. So be very careful! Jesus warned of many wolves in sheep's clothing. This is why discernment is so important. We must discern between truth and deceit, true doctrine and false doctrine, true ministers and false ministers, and true brothers and false brothers. Malachi 3:18 tells us that the ability to discern between those who serve God from those who do not is acquainted with intimacy with God. The only way we can develop and cultivate this discernment is by exposing ourselves to the word of God by reading the Bible, praying, fellowshipping with godly Christians, and listening to sound preaching.

I'll Be Honest is an excellent media ministry of the church pastored by Pastor Tim Conway. In it he provides questions & answers about Christianity, salvation, repentance, sin, etc. He also provides his own sermons and other helpful resources. The website can be seen as follows:
http://www.youtube.com/illbehonest
http://www.illbehonest.com

Heartcry Missionary Society is another excellent ministry led by Pastor Paul Washer, who is an amazing preacher who has spoken against alot of the hypocritical Christianity floating around in America. He is a missionary who has traveled all over the world. I have benefited greatly from his sermons as they have convicted me in every aspect of my life, and through his ministry God has convicted me and enabled me to grow in greater holiness.
http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/resources/sermons/Paul_Washer

Desiring God is a great ministry by Dr. John Piper. He also provides questions & answers, sermons, tracts, etc. You can find his stuff at:
http://www.desiringgod.org

I am not here to advertise my own site, but I will provide it because I have compiled this list of biblical resources in order to direct people to them. I put my site up as a personal testimony of how I became a Christian. I also presented my understanding of the gospel...this gospel is in alignment with the aforementioned ministries. Visit it here: http://www.truthsource.net

I hope that you will continue seeking to grow closer to the Lord Jesus Christ as He alone can fulfill all our desires and keep us safe from Satan, the world, Hell, and our sinful flesh. May God keep you in His grace.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

Ah the infamous Matthew 7:1-5. The reason I didn't quote that passage was because that passage has nothing to do with the loving correction intended for repentance that the Bible commands Christians to practice. Please read the context. Who is Jesus talking about when He mentions the "do not judge, lest you be judged" command? He's referring to the Pharisees. The Pharisees were religious hypocrites who were looking for ways to condemn other people in order to make themselves appear more righteous. This is the context of Matthew 7:1-5 and is what Jesus is forbidding.

Now ask yourself this: Am I actively searching for ways to condemn anybody here? Am I looking for ways to make myself appear righteous? The answer to both these questions are a resounding no. I don't want anybody to be condemned. I want as many as possible to be saved. The problem with humanity is that it is condemned and on its way to Hell. The only way out is to repent of their sins and believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore I want people to be saved, and I want to lead them to this required repentance. I want to expose the sin that's prevalent in their lives, and call them to repent. I want to lead them to the cross, and to the Savior Jesus Christ. That is why I expose sin and call people to repent. Secondly, my goal here is not to make myself appear righteous. I already know that I am a wretched person and I have stated this publicly. A Pharisee would never dare to publicly proclaim his own wretchedness, because he literally did not believe that. The Pharisees were blind to their own wickedness. That is why Jesus said not to judge others by trying to take out the speck in their eye, when a log was in their own...the Pharisees' belief in their self-righteousness was that log that blinded them from seeing clearly.

Also, notice a very interesting comment Jesus made in that passage (Matthew 7:5), which you equally ignored. Jesus commanded thus: "Hypocrite! First take out the log of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye." Is Jesus' ultimate intention to rid all of us from any form of correction or removal of sin? Not at all! He wants us to see clearly to remove the specks out of our brothers' eyes. The problem in this instance was self righteousness and condemnatory judging. You cannot judge with righteous judgment (as commanded by Jesus in John 7:24) when these things are a reality in your life (that log).

After all this is said, you can see the reason why I did not quote Matthew 7:1-5 as legitimate, and that you quoting it against me is wrong and a misquoting of Scripture.

Alright I can understand that, I understand where you're comming from. I have to disagree on your interpretation of Matthew. Just because you're a religious hypocrite doesn't mean you're exempt from not judging others or have a free pass because you think you're not a hypocrite. My problem with your argument is that you're not focusing on my point at all. I agree with you that we're to correct others but I'm telling you to be careful of the spirit you do it in.

The way I can tell if you're doing something out of spite or not is the tone of your words and written message. I read your posts as harsh and possibly judgemental. You assure me that you're not. Problem solved on both ends.

I believe that God works on ourselves before we're supposed to rip apart others. How can we call ourselves Christians if we're bashing others in the name of Jesus all the time and have a pride problem? Then yes, Matthew would apply here as you being the religious hypocrite.

I say "you" in a general term, not you personally.

 

[dane_g87]

I am sorry for not expressing the fact that we are in alignment. What you said about "yes, we point out the sins of others, but not in a critical spirit" I fully and wholeheartedly agree with. And I'm not saying that "religious hypocrites are exempt from not judging others or one who thinks he's not a hypocrite has a free pass" either. What I meant was the behavior Jesus is condemning in Matthew 7:1 when He says, "Judge not.." is not a prohibition against judging in general; He is condemning the behavior of looking for ways to make people feel terrible and to condemn them, in order to cause themselves to appear more righteous. This behavior was most identified with the scribes and Pharisees, who were always condemning people who weren't perfect (like tax collectors, prostitutes, etc) so that they could appear oh so holy by society. Now tax collectors/prostitutes who continue in their sins ought to be confronted and told what they're doing is sin, but the issue here was involving the repentant tax collectors and prostitutes who forsook their sins and came to Jesus. The Pharisees looked upon them, ignored their repentance, and held fast onto their sins and their previous reputations and used them to condemn them with such cruel hatred. This is what Jesus is forbidding in Matthew 7:1...He is not forbidding the judgment of informing a fellow Christian that they are in sin and need to repent. Alot of Christians, when confronted about their sins, are quick to quote Matthew 7:1 but this is a complete misquote and has nothing to do with what Jesus was talking about.

This interpretation of Matthew 7:1-5 as I expounded is not my own interpretation...that is the way the passage has been interpreted all throughout the history of the Christian church by all doctrinally sound theologians. Here are some quick commentaries on the passage:

"Judge not - any man without full, clear, certain knowledge, without absolute necessity, without tender love." - John Wesley

"Our Saviour is here directing us how to conduct ourselves in reference to the faults of others; and his expressions seem intended as a reproof to the scribes and Pharisees, who were very rigid and severe, very magisterial and supercilious, in condemning all about them, as those commonly are, that are proud and conceited in justifying themselves." - Matthew Henry

"These exhortations are pointed against rash, harsh, and uncharitable judgments, the thinking evil, where no evil seems, and speaking of it accordingly. The Jews were highly criminal here, and yet had very excellent maxims against it" - Adam Clarke

"This command refers to rash, censorious, and unjust judgment. Luke Luk_6:37 explains it in the sense of “condemning.” Christ does not condemn judging as a magistrate, for that, when according to justice, is lawful and necessary. Nor does he condemn our “forming an opinion” of the conduct of others, for it is impossible “not” to form an opinion of conduct that we know to be evil. But what he refers to is a habit of forming a judgment hastily, harshly, and without an allowance for every palliating circumstance, and a habit of “expressing” such an opinion harshly and unnecessarily when formed. It rather refers to private judgment than “judicial,” and perhaps primarily to the customs of the scribes and Pharisees." - Albert Barnes

By explaining Matthew 7:1 I hope you don't think that I believe you are wrong and I'm showing you how I'm right. I believe you and I agree on this issue, I just think there has been some confusion because I hadn't explained myself clearly.

 

[Dread_Zeppelin]

I am sorry for not expressing the fact that we are in alignment. What you said about "yes, we point out the sins of others, but not in a critical spirit" I fully and wholeheartedly agree with. And I'm not saying that "religious hypocrites are exempt from not judging others or one who thinks he's not a hypocrite has a free pass" either. What I meant was the behavior Jesus is condemning in Matthew 7:1 when He says, "Judge not.." is not a prohibition against judging in general; He is condemning the behavior of looking for ways to make people feel terrible and to condemn them, in order to cause themselves to appear more righteous. This behavior was most identified with the scribes and Pharisees, who were always condemning people who weren't perfect (like tax collectors, prostitutes, etc) so that they could appear oh so holy by society. Now tax collectors/prostitutes who continue in their sins ought to be confronted and told what they're doing is sin, but the issue here was involving the repentant tax collectors and prostitutes who forsook their sins and came to Jesus. The Pharisees looked upon them, ignored their repentance, and held fast onto their sins and their previous reputations and used them to condemn them with such cruel hatred. This is what Jesus is forbidding in Matthew 7:1...He is not forbidding the judgment of informing a fellow Christian that they are in sin and need to repent. Alot of Christians, when confronted about their sins, are quick to quote Matthew 7:1 but this is a complete misquote and has nothing to do with what Jesus was talking about.

This interpretation of Matthew 7:1-5 as I expounded is not my own interpretation...that is the way the passage has been interpreted all throughout the history of the Christian church by all doctrinally sound theologians. Here are some quick commentaries on the passage:

"Judge not - any man without full, clear, certain knowledge, without absolute necessity, without tender love." - John Wesley

"Our Saviour is here directing us how to conduct ourselves in reference to the faults of others; and his expressions seem intended as a reproof to the scribes and Pharisees, who were very rigid and severe, very magisterial and supercilious, in condemning all about them, as those commonly are, that are proud and conceited in justifying themselves." - Matthew Henry

"These exhortations are pointed against rash, harsh, and uncharitable judgments, the thinking evil, where no evil seems, and speaking of it accordingly. The Jews were highly criminal here, and yet had very excellent maxims against it" - Adam Clarke

"This command refers to rash, censorious, and unjust judgment. Luke Luk_6:37 explains it in the sense of “condemning.” Christ does not condemn judging as a magistrate, for that, when according to justice, is lawful and necessary. Nor does he condemn our “forming an opinion” of the conduct of others, for it is impossible “not” to form an opinion of conduct that we know to be evil. But what he refers to is a habit of forming a judgment hastily, harshly, and without an allowance for every palliating circumstance, and a habit of “expressing” such an opinion harshly and unnecessarily when formed. It rather refers to private judgment than “judicial,” and perhaps primarily to the customs of the scribes and Pharisees." - Albert Barnes

By explaining Matthew 7:1 I hope you don't think that I believe you are wrong and I'm showing you how I'm right. I believe you and I agree on this issue, I just think there has been some confusion because I hadn't explained myself clearly.

I'm very weary of how the church interprets anything. I like to think that the church in general has made their own interpretations and their share of mistakes based on what they choose to believe for years. Saying that something is biblically sound by X, Y, and Z theologist means nothing to me when I see the corruption and error of everyday churches. I am a "seek for yourself" Christian based on the religious principles and lining up of the scriptures. Just like I dont take every preachers word as God's own mouth all the time (there is a difference between following blindly and following), I believe that I'm a mature enough Christian to deduce what the Lord is speaking to me personally.

This doesn't mean that I'm right and you're wrong- it means that to me quotes by pastors, no matter how famous they are, don't mean bubkis to me.

Your quote:

He is condemning the behavior of looking for ways to make people feel terrible and to condemn them, in order to cause themselves to appear more righteous.

If you had just put a "period" where you put a "comma" we would have agreed. I believe that we should condemn the behavior of looking for ways to make people feel anything unless its to point them to Christ in a loving manner- no matter what the motive. Its pure manipulation.I dont care what the endgame of your trist is- if it's not in love it's vanity. That is what I get out of Matthew. If that's wrong well...ha I dont want to be right?

 

[QuestionTime]

That this place (Christian Chat) is filled by a majority of unconverted "religious" or "licentious" people who claim to be Christian but are not is clearly seen and understood by any genuine believer who is acquainted with the God of Scripture and biblical doctrines. This is what I was alluding to when I made that remark that I made. You should look up certain biblical pastors like Paul Washer, Tim Conway, John Piper, John MacArthur, Steve Lawson...and you will get the same message from them, concerning a majority of Christianity being a bunch of lost people on their way to Hell.

You are very cut and dried in these matters Dane, as I was once also. I used to preach hardcore against sin, while I was still living in it. I also used to listen to Paul Washer.

Since God has been working on my heart of late, I have begun to see faith as the most important thing. A living faith causes people to love their Lord - and so without any thought to themselves - they go about trying to please God. They have the fruits of the Spirit within them:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Anyone who has these fruits will obey God, without any thought toward God's Law. How can it be otherwise? The fruits - if they exist - will cause a man to always walk in obedience to God, without any striving or determination. We are dead to the Law, and this is how God achieves our obedience.

I have seen people in this forum who are in great error in their theological beliefs. They don't not talk the Bible lingo and thus appear to be Antinomians from the first five glances. But then I see their faith. I see that they pray and something happens. I see their words - without correct understanding - yet filled with love for their Savior. These people really love and trust God.

I'll leave off with a quote from John Wesley:

2. It is true believers may not all speak alike; they may not all use the same language. It is not to be expected that they should: we cannot reasonably require it of them. A thousand circumstances may cause them to vary from each other, in the manner of expressing themselves: But a difference of expression does nor necessarily imply a difference of sentiment. Different persons may use different expressions, and yet mean the same thing. Nothing is more common than this, although we seldom make sufficient allowance for it. Nay, it is not easy for the same persons, when they speak of the same thing at a considerable distance of time, to use exactly the same expressions, even though they retain the same sentiments: How then can we be rigorous in requiring others to use just the same expressions with us?

3. We may go a step farther yet: Men may differ from us in their opinions, as well as their expressions, and nevertheless be partakers with us of the same precious faith. It is possible they may not have a distinct apprehension of the very blessing which they enjoy: Their ideas may not be so clear, and yet their experience may be as sound, as ours. There is a wide difference between the natural faculties of men, their understandings in particular; And that difference is exceedingly increased by the manner of their education. Indeed, this alone may occasion an inconceivable difference in their opinions of various kinds; and why not upon this head, as well as on any other? But still, though their opinions, as well as expressions, may be confused and inaccurate, their hearts may cleave to God through the Son of his love, and be truly interested in his righteousness.

4. Let us then make all that allowance to others, which, were we in their place, we would desire for ourselves. Who is ignorant (to touch again on that circumstance only) of the amazing power of education? And who that knows it, can expect, suppose, a member of the Church of Rome, either to think or speak clearly on this subject? And yet, if we had heard even dying Bellarmine cry out, -- when he was asked, "Unto which of the saints wilt thou turn?" -- Fidere meritis Christi tutissimum; "It is safest to trust in the merits of Christ;" would we have affirmed that, not withstanding his wrong opinions, he had no share in his righteousness?

Quest

 

[dane_g87]

What do you mean by the church? What the world or America calls the church isn't truly the church of course, but those who know God and strive to live for His glory know who the church is. And this church is the body of Christ. I hope you are talking about the former and not the latter. If you are talking about the latter, and if you despise the body of Christ, which He died for, then this is evidence that you are not truly in the faith (1 John 3:14).

You should be weary about how the so-called "church" interprets Scripture, but you should be honoring how the faithful body of Christ has interpreted Scripture throughout the history of the church. If you don't know who this faithful body are, and who its key figures were, or the church fathers, then it's because you haven't studied history, because you haven't been concerned enough to seek it out. The fact of the matter is there have been movements and great men of faith throughout history who have been closer to God, more holy, and more knowledgeable about the Scriptures than we are, and we should not despise that. We should acknowledge that and strive for that. We should honor these men because they fought for the truth, because God worked through them, and also because they are members of the precious body of Christ.

"Saying that something is biblically sound by X, Y, and Z theologist means nothing to me when I see the corruption and error of everyday churches."
- There are multitudes of theologians in the past and today who are corrupt and wicked heretics. However there is a great wealth of theologians who have held steadfast to the true and necessary doctrines of the faith. If you are indiscriminately referring to any and all theologians and equating them all with what you see in today's corruption of everyday churches, then you haven't correctly discerned who these faithful theologians were apart from the heretics of those days and today.

"I am a "seek for yourself" Christian based on the religious principles and lining up of the scriptures. Just like I dont take every preachers word as God's own mouth all the time (there is a difference between following blindly and following), I believe that I'm a mature enough Christian to deduce what the Lord is speaking to me personally."
- Do you realize how much pride and arrogance is manifest here? You are pretty much saying you personally interpret Scripture how you personally decide to interpret it. You are resting in your own discernment and interpretation. Guess what? God hasn't just visited you; He's visited thousands of other people and has worked through them and they have interpreted Scripture as well and we could learn a whole lot by what these godly men taught, preached, and lived. And it's not blindly following; if you simply take what someone says at face value, this is blindly following and foolish. But if you "test all things" like Scripture says, and you examine the fruit, you will easily see that there are many of these theologians of old, as well as of today, who are godly men through whom God worked mightily. To refuse to acknowledge these men and rest in your own understanding is not only idolatry, but it is blatant rebellion against God, as He has commanded us to "rise up and honor the grey-headed and aged" - Leviticus 19:32) and to count elders worthy of double honor (1 Timothy 5:17).

The issue is not about how famous a pastor or theologian is. What matters is "Is God working/has God worked through these men?" "Is this man living a holy life that bears good fruit?" And if the answers are yes, then nothing else matters besides acknowledging them and testing yourself by Scripture and by them. Sure, you can interpret a passage in Scripture yourself, but what if your interpretation contradicts the interpretation of some theologian of old? How are you going to discern who is correct? Not weighing the matter in justice and truth and resting in your personal understanding will be the result of pride and arrogance. Considering the fruit and lives behind these men and conforming your interpretation to theirs if you see that God has clearly worked through them will be the result of humility, wisdom, and love and honor to the body of Christ.

Speaking of the body of Christ, are you a member of a biblical God-honoring, Christ-exalting church?

Lastly, I will comment on your quote "If that's wrong well...ha I dont want to be right?"
- If this was a joke, then okay. But if you were serious, then what if you are wrong? Not willing to admit your wrong and conform yourself accordingly is pride and not Christ-like. News flash: there are many areas in Scripture where you will be wrong because the word of God is not according to the flesh, it is purely spiritual; and we are of the flesh. And our minds are going to read things that we personally don't want to hear or believe and being a Christian depends on living according to this wicked flesh or submitting ourselves to the Spirit.

 

[dane_g87]

You are very cut and dried in these matters Dane, as I was once also. I used to preach hardcore against sin, while I was still living in it. I also used to listen to Paul Washer.

What do you mean by "while I was still living in it"? Are you saying that you are free from sin now?

And you said you used to listen to Paul Washer. What exactly do you mean; and if you stopped, what was the reason?

Thanks