It is unclear to me where you got "habitual sinner" and "works based doctrine" from eph611's posts. Could you please enlighten me? Thank you.
Why is it assumed by many here that Grace Folk live in blatant, unrepentant sin?
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LaurenTM
Guest
this is utterly ridiculous
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you cannot be a sinner and a Christian
why do you suppose Paul started almost every one of his letters with ...'to the SAINTS at' and then named them
why the extreme rhetoric? geez I am so up to here with people judging and imagining their own words are of biblical import
a sinner, is someone in ongoing and unrepentant sin
Christians can and do sin...but they are not sinners...they are SAINTS! it's in the New Testament...maybe you should read until you come across it...oh wait...almost all of Paul's letters attest to that fact so it should not be all that hard to find
get over yourself!!
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torus
Guest
Because so may are under the notion that anyone who is saves does not sin anymore. However, even Peter denied Jesus 3x and the last o9ne, with cursing. John gave us 1 Jn 1:9, and the NT says if we say we do not sin then the truth is not in us.
Believers sin but not as a main pattern. Instead, this happens as an exception and gets less and less. Even the Gr. term "tetelestai" used for "It is finished" by Jesus on the cross to describe His work of salvation means it is finished, is continually being finished. Was anyone alive here today, on this site living when Jesus died on the cross, or when He said " It is finished"? Think about it. All our sins are paid for. Yes, even the ones God knows we are still to commit even after getting saved.This is what grace for. Not a license to sin but a security for us. We are not sinless but we sin less. |Note the difference.
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eph610
Guest
The only thing that was exposed is your lack of understanding the too good to be true Gospel.....your strong words condemning me are typical and usually the first remarks made by someone who has only been hearer of the word and has never been a doer[study the word] These kinds of remarks are also typical by those who have been the victim of distorted communicated Bible Knowledge....
Please answer....
Does the Bible say we are made a new creation or not?
Does Paul greet fellow believers in the Bible as sinners saved by grace or Saints?
Does the Bible say SIN has power over you?
Does The Bible say righteousness is personal performance and earned through works, or imputed by faith and is a position?
Does the Bible show a clear separation of sinner and saint?
Does the Bible say the old man is buried with Christ or not?
I am unfazed by your attacks on my character....what needs to happen is that you look over these questions, instead of lashing out and defending a distorted Doctrine
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eph610
Guest
Time ran out on the edit, so I am responding to you twice....
The critical thing here brother is how we define things...
I define a Sinner as a condition of someone who is not yet reconciled to God through his grace and their faith and belief in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ and nothing else....when a Sinner comes to Jesus through God's grace and their own faith and confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus and what he did on the cross believes in their heart God raised him from the dead....they go from sinner to saint...notice I did not say they are made perfect
I define a Saint as one having been reconciled to God through the redemptive work of Jesus and nothing else...their sins have been forgiven by the shed blood of Jesus Christ....they are a new creation and the condition of sinner has been removed...
As the saint is discipled and taught the things oif God more clearly and they begin renewing their minds to the Word of God, the empowering grace and love of God is shed abroad in their hearts, by the Holy Ghost....this empowering grace is the power that enables a saint to do in his Spirit, what he will never, ever do in his mind or flesh...that is resist temptation, have power to choose to SIN or not SIN, witness to others, begin growing fruit, and becoming who God says they are and who he called them to be...
This empowering, manifold grace is given from the Holy Ghost and not something we do in our mental or fleshly power, because we can't....We will still miss the mark and SIN, because we are not perfect and we are not without a sin nature as Jesus. When we do SIN, we confess our sins, and He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That does not make us a SINNER again....
The result of empowering manifold grace are the works that prove our faith is not dead, not works for salvation, because that was given by Jesus Christ and him alone....the works we do are direct result of the new man taking over the old man.....it is a result of the anointing activating upon us for ministry and within us for Character....it is the anointing upon us, through empowering grace that destroys the yoke, lifts the burden and changes the lives of those God puts in our path...it is the anointing within us that grows fruit for character and gives us the power to resist the devil and his temptations, bring every thought captive into the obedience of Jesus Christ, and stand firm when trials and tribulations come our way......
Saints are Sinners that were saved by grace....Saints are not continual sinners saved by grace...grace does not work that way and never as....
Saints are not perfect and never will be in soul[mind, will, emotions, passions and intellect] or flesh[body], but they are not easily beset by sin ,which tries to entangle them, and run the race set before them and finish their courses with joy...
I hope this fills in the blanks for you...
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ladylynn
Guest
It has been commonly stated by good Christians that we are "sinners saved by grace" But actually it's like Lauren said, we are Saints. Our identity is no longer "I am a sinner" our identity is "I am a son"
We are no longer sinners who don't sin sometimes. When Jesus came and died and rose again He gave us the gift of righteousness. We are now 100% righteous IN Christ. Our identity is IN Christ. We are no longer IN Adam.
So the new birth has made us Saints who sometimes sin but we are now born again and our life is hidden in Christ. We are sons and daughters of the Most High. No longer sinners by definition but Saints by inheritance. Jesus righteousness is stronger than Adam's sin. Jesus is able to save to the uttermost.
We are no longer sinners who don't sin sometimes. When Jesus came and died and rose again He gave us the gift of righteousness. We are now 100% righteous IN Christ. Our identity is IN Christ. We are no longer IN Adam.
So the new birth has made us Saints who sometimes sin but we are now born again and our life is hidden in Christ. We are sons and daughters of the Most High. No longer sinners by definition but Saints by inheritance. Jesus righteousness is stronger than Adam's sin. Jesus is able to save to the uttermost.
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Gr8grace
Guest
Why put a qualifier in there? Because we are going to be attacked by the majority and I mean the MAJOR majority of believers.
So the new birth has made us saints and we are born-again and our life is hidden in Christ.
Why add, "Who sometimes sin?" A believer can habitually sin. Grace is Grace. They are going to have a miserable life,lose rewards,reign, rank,possibly die the sin unto physical death and a host of eternal blessings. But they are still saved.
And we have to keep in mind that the vast majority of believers are living in RELIGION/EVIL habitually. An even worse state than habitual sin. Why is this never added as a qualifier to His Grace?
To go off your quote, why don't we see the majority of believers saying this?........
So the new birth has made us saints who sometimes live in religion(because they can't and won't live in habitual religion if they are really saved)but we are born again and our life is hidden in Christ.
Believers can and do live in habitual sin and are still saved. Believers who live in the worst possible thing in Gods eyes.....habitual religion are still saved.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
You need to add another qualifier.
BELIEVERS "True" Who are stuck in religion are saved.
People who have RELIGION as a gospel. I do not believe are saved, Because their faith is not in God, but their religion, We have the pharisee as the major example.
The pharisee had to "repent" like Saul and others who because true believers, to become saved.
To just say a believer stuck in religion is still saved,, Would be saying all gospels can lead to Christ, as long as they are "christian"
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Gr8grace
Guest
That's not what the Bible says. Who's servant we are determines our destination. These talk about righteousness & death, therefore the subject is our spiritual condition & destination. Since they are contrasting subjects, righteousness indicates it a spiritual contrast, & not a physical one.
Romans 6
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness,resulting in sanctification.Paul is telling the church that slavery to sin results in spiritual death. Slavery indicates total submission & total obedience to the best of our ability.
1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
Since commiting sin IS a spiritual matter, the death is a spiritual one. Since we are already living, God cannot be giving physical life here.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
1My little children (saints), I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Some grace folks, if not all, live in blatant, unrepentant sin.
They don't believe obedience is necessary.
{4} But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the {f} love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in {g} him.(4) He that keeps God's commandments loves God indeed: He that loves God, is in God, or is joined together with God. Therefore he that keeps his commandments is in him.(f) Wherewith we love God.(g) He means our union with Christ.
5. The statement in 1 John 2:3 is still further emphasized by taking the opposite of 1 John 2:4; but with this we do not return to 1 John 2:3, but have an expansion of it.
His word] A wider expression than ‘His commandments’, covering the sum total of the revelation of God’s will: comp. 1 John 2:14. Thus Christ says, ‘He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me’ (John 14:21).
Some grace folks, if not all, live in blatant, unrepentant sin.
They don't believe obedience is necessary.
{4} But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the {f} love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in {g} him.(4) He that keeps God's commandments loves God indeed: He that loves God, is in God, or is joined together with God. Therefore he that keeps his commandments is in him.(f) Wherewith we love God.(g) He means our union with Christ.
5. The statement in 1 John 2:3 is still further emphasized by taking the opposite of 1 John 2:4; but with this we do not return to 1 John 2:3, but have an expansion of it.
His word] A wider expression than ‘His commandments’, covering the sum total of the revelation of God’s will: comp. 1 John 2:14. Thus Christ says, ‘He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me’ (John 14:21).
All grace folk that I have listened to believe in repentance whenever they hear the word of Christ and I have listened to over a thousand messages from different ministers of the gospel of Christ. But everyone it seems is free to believe what all other Christians are doing in their lives and accuse them of things.
Then again I do not know all grace folks either.
Then again I do not know all grace folks either.
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PinkDiamond
Guest
I can't speak for anyone else. My view is that the wonderful aspect of grace is that we have Christ as our advocate and we have power over sin. We do not have this prior to conversion
I absolutely see the need for repentance and sorrow over sin after conversion. I think the more I know Christ the more sorrow I have over my sins. If we have a relationship with Christ we can't help but feel sorrow that we have sinned against God. Even if we believe that he is merciful and just to forgive us that doesn't remove the sting or pang that we feel for injuring such a loving Savior through our sin. Personally, I view repentance or Godly sorrow over sin as the most natural thing for the Christian who has sinned. It isn't something we do from fear, but from love.
I absolutely see the need for repentance and sorrow over sin after conversion. I think the more I know Christ the more sorrow I have over my sins. If we have a relationship with Christ we can't help but feel sorrow that we have sinned against God. Even if we believe that he is merciful and just to forgive us that doesn't remove the sting or pang that we feel for injuring such a loving Savior through our sin. Personally, I view repentance or Godly sorrow over sin as the most natural thing for the Christian who has sinned. It isn't something we do from fear, but from love.
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eph610
Guest
Nobody BUT YOU, consistently make these discussions about personal salvation....Not one thing mentioned in any posts is or are related or directly talk about personal salvation...not one...
A believer can SIN, but will they? Many believers know committing SIN breaks the heart of Father, so why would we want to to do break Fathers heart and put Jesus to shame? Committing Habitual Sin and abiding in Jesus[not talking about salvation here] are clearly refuted in the Bible....In Christ you are either a slave of righteousness or slave to sin, but not both....light cannot fellowship with darkness...
It is next to impossible for a believer to commit and live in Habitual sin....Wanna know why?
Because empowering grace will not let you live that way....
You seem to be saying this:
Before Johnny got saved he was single and fornicating with any woman he could find....married, divorced or single women, prostitutes it did not matter...when Johnny needed that itch scratched, it got it scratched....furthermore when Johnny could not find a woman, he relied porn to satisfy his Sin of fornication......
One night Johnny went to church , heard a message that his fornication did not matter to God, because God's grace would save him and not send him to hell, Johnny felt a little bit sorry for his fornication and he raised his hand and got saved....in the next few weeks, Johnny was continually told that God's Grace kept him from going to hell....Johnny told his grace preacher that another Christian told him, that he should keep porn off his computer and stop sleeping around with women, because it is a SIN and he has been trying in all his physical might and mental strength to keep from fornicating and looking at porn.....the grace preacher told him to stop listening to the religion pushing fruit inspector, because he was questioning your salvation and its OK for believers to live in habitual sin and be saved, because that is how grace works...
Johnny was sooooo relieved that he went out and hired 3 prostitutes and made up for lost time.
Through the following years Johnny still went to church, but avoided the religion pushing fruit inspector people, because he had grace and was still saved......His grace pastor had to "step down" for 2 weeks and then started preaching again, after people found out he was having an affair on his wife....So Johnny's SIN accelerated and was unstoppable, because hey, if my Pastor can do it and he has grace and is saved, then its ok for me too....even though there were times in the quiet places he never talked to anyone about, he heard a small still voice telling him to stop his SIN....
Johnny no longer was satisfied with just women and many women at the same time, so he started dabbling into bi-sexual encounters...Once every week Johnny still heard everything was alright because grace was on his side and he was still saved.....Johnny noticed that the still small voice stopped talking to him...he did not think much about it....when the bi-sexual encounters did not fulfill him, he began homosexual encounters....and full out orgies.....nothing could scratch that itch good enough.....Johnny was also taking copious amounts of drugs and drinking heavily during this entire cycle....every Sunday Johnny was in church hearing about how grace saved him and that nobody should judge him or question the way he lived, because Grace is grace and he was saved.....
One night after drugging and drinking himself sober, unable to perform sexually and at his wits end he heard a voice...the voice told him the answer to his ultimate itch was to be found by taking a nice hot bath....Johnny climbed into the tub and the voice told him....don't forget the razor blade....when Johnny's physical and spiritual states began to collide and he suddenly understood he was dying...he had a very real chill run down his back, because the voice now, was not the voice then.....
But hey gr8grace....we don't need no stinkin fruit, we don't need no stinkin religion and we don't need know stinkin qualifiers....cuz we have grace....
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I agree with you...altho I do not see all repentance as being sorrowful but it does often do manifest in that emotion when it is used in the context of sinning. God repented and I'm sure He didn't have sorrow attached to it.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Paul was dealing with the Corinthians where he said that they were sorrowful according to God ( the will of ) in this verse is not in the original. They were made sorrowful by the first letter he wrote to them when he chastised them.
Sorrowful according to God IMO means that they recognized what had happened and they were sorrowful. Paul was telling them in verse 2 Cor. 8-11 the difference between worldly sorrow and the sorrow that comes from God within us.
I do agree that all repentance that has to do with sinning - has a sorrow of some sort attached to it. I actually wrote about that before...let me see if I can find it. It might shed more light on it as to what I am saying.
PinkDiamond - found it.
Here is what I do when I sin..
I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him..how what I did was wrong..sometimes I use the word sin..sometimes I don't..I think that is irrelevant...
I run to my Father and tell Him how that His Son..my Lord is my life..my righteousness,..Jesus Blood has secured my redemption and forgiveness of sins....I confess what God says about me...I tell Him I love Him and trust in Him...
I have not asked for forgiveness in order to be forgiven for quite some time now...but I always talk with my Lord about what I do or don't do...
You know ...He always loves on me and tells me He loves me and that He is my life and strength. Sometimes I have felt a warm liquid like feeling of pure love fall on me..and I just sit there in His presence and weep..I can't move a muscle..He is so mighty in power yet His love and total acceptance is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence.
To me..all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me..most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.
For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things. ( I don't steal....well I haven't since I was a kid...not that I can remember anyway..it's just an example )
The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use.
..what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character nor is it really my true nature now and what He has made me in Christ.
This above causes great sorrow in me - whether it is from God or my own emotions from the world and the Lord has always been there to hold me to Him and tell me I belong to Him and that His grace is sufficient for me. That sin is as far from me as the east is from the west. Walk on in who you are in Me as I am your life.
Here is what I do when I sin..
I love to kneel quickly and tell my Father how I trust in Him..how what I did was wrong..sometimes I use the word sin..sometimes I don't..I think that is irrelevant...
I run to my Father and tell Him how that His Son..my Lord is my life..my righteousness,..Jesus Blood has secured my redemption and forgiveness of sins....I confess what God says about me...I tell Him I love Him and trust in Him...
I have not asked for forgiveness in order to be forgiven for quite some time now...but I always talk with my Lord about what I do or don't do...
You know ...He always loves on me and tells me He loves me and that He is my life and strength. Sometimes I have felt a warm liquid like feeling of pure love fall on me..and I just sit there in His presence and weep..I can't move a muscle..He is so mighty in power yet His love and total acceptance is the most overwhelming aspect of His presence.
To me..all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me..most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.
For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things. ( I don't steal....well I haven't since I was a kid...not that I can remember anyway..it's just an example )
The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use.
..what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character nor is it really my true nature now and what He has made me in Christ.
This above causes great sorrow in me - whether it is from God or my own emotions from the world and the Lord has always been there to hold me to Him and tell me I belong to Him and that His grace is sufficient for me. That sin is as far from me as the east is from the west. Walk on in who you are in Me as I am your life.
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Gr8grace
Guest
Touched a nerve huh? And I believe its because you are relying on your "fruits" and not Grace.
A few of us see it.