How was the Covenant changed between the "Old" and "New" ?

[Grandpa]

Romans 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law."

Romans 2:14-15, “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.”

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what YHWH says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing any evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying; YHWH has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what YHWH says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which please Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YHWH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him, and to love the Name of YHWH, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer.."

It's about being a servant of Yah and going to His holy mountian...

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Romans 9:31-33
[FONT=&quot]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Wherefore? Because they viewed them as instructions they could work at instead of a gift that is given. By faith...

See Ephesians 2:8-9[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

Romans 9:31-33
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Wherefore? Because they viewed them as instructions they could work at instead of a gift that is given. By faith...

See Ephesians 2:8-9

Which is a grave error, depending on one's own self for salvation. I know I posted this a few times already, but this passage is so powerful, I want to post it again!

John (Yahanan) 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers.You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."

And this is also amazing:

Isayah 53, "Who has believed our report? To whom is the arm of Yahweh revealed? For He will grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground. He has no form nor comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by Yahweh, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on Him the iniquity o us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut of from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; but He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet His bruises; willful sacrifice, pleased Yahweh; for He was put to much grief. Now He has brought the offering for sin. He will see His seed, He will prolong days, and the pleasure of Yahweh will succeed in His hands. He will see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied; by His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, for He will bear their iniquities. Therefore, I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the plunder with the strong; because He poured out His soul to death, and He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

 

[Grandpa]

I wasn't talking about salvation. I was talking about righteousness and how we live.

But they do go hand in hand, don't they? You can't have one without the other.

 

[Hizikyah]

I wasn't talking about salvation. I was talking about righteousness and how we live.

But they do go hand in hand, don't they? You can't have one without the other.

They truly do. Yahshua/Jesus and Paul agree:

Yahanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

2 Corinthians 5:10 Parallel Verses

The Scriptures
2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we all have to appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, in order for each one to receive according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil."

New International Version
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

New Living Translation
For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.

English Standard Version
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Berean Literal Bible
For we must all be revealed before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may receive back the things done through the body according to what he did, whether good or evil.

New American Standard Bible
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

King James Bible
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

PS I didn't write it, I just quoted it...

Thanks be to Yah He changes our heart, guides and strengthens us!

 

[Grandpa]

Romans 4:4-8
[FONT=&quot]4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Yes, thank God, Who blesses us more than we can think or ask.[/FONT]

 

[PeterJens]

The old (which could never make anyone righteous. But was given to lead us to the messiah) Was fulfilled by Christ.
Then the new, Which can make us righteous, took its place.

The above statement for me is to say the Creator is just pointing to himself as the
saviour of the world, which is self evident, and not meaningful.

All the books of the old testament are not redundant, or meaningless. They are to
do with the struggle between the desire for life and functional society, and sin and the
carnal desires of the heart.

Everything from the quick fix groups, is always a one sentence solution, when it has
always been a walk of fellowship and discovery. The rules of this walk mans heart hates,
humbleness, repentance, confession, sacrifice, discipline, faith, trust, love.

None of the above come easy, but this is our calling. But many use words to imply just
forming this reality is being religious and evil. Unfortunately they end up calling God evil.
God appointed priests, put in place festivals, celebrations, ceremonies, special buildings,
places of holiness, and places of defilement from which one must be cleansed.

Equally they deny God sees the sin in our lives, only Christ, but it is shown he sees the
sin and rebukes it.

The old covenant is the reality of the spiritual walk we must walk now on earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The old (which could never make anyone righteous. But was given to lead us to the messiah) Was fulfilled by Christ.
Then the new, Which can make us righteous, took its place.

The above statement for me is to say the Creator is just pointing to himself as the
saviour of the world, which is self evident, and not meaningful.

All the books of the old testament are not redundant, or meaningless. They are to
do with the struggle between the desire for life and functional society, and sin and the
carnal desires of the heart.

Everything from the quick fix groups, is always a one sentence solution, when it has
always been a walk of fellowship and discovery. The rules of this walk mans heart hates,
humbleness, repentance, confession, sacrifice, discipline, faith, trust, love.

None of the above come easy, but this is our calling. But many use words to imply just
forming this reality is being religious and evil. Unfortunately they end up calling God evil.
God appointed priests, put in place festivals, celebrations, ceremonies, special buildings,
places of holiness, and places of defilement from which one must be cleansed.

Equally they deny God sees the sin in our lives, only Christ, but it is shown he sees the
sin and rebukes it.

The old covenant is the reality of the spiritual walk we must walk now on earth.

why can not people just read the word?

Do we listen to Paul the apostle. or Peter the CC member?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]What purpose then does the law serve?


Here, Paul is going to give us the answer. What was the reason God gave moses and the children of Israel the law?

Was it to show them how to be Holy? Show them how to be saved? Show them how to be righteous? like the workers want us to believe,

Or something else?

It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;


So we have our first point.

It was added because of sin, And it was to be in effect UNTIL the seed should come to whom the promise was made.

So we have the first reason why, and how long it would be in effect.

and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Here we have the second point,

It can not make us righteous, It can not make us holy, It can not make us Alive in christ, it can not give life. period.. no matter who says it can, here we have it in black and white, in pauls own words. IT CAN NOT GIVE LIFE. PERIOD..

Then we have the third point, It was given to show all we are sinners, and as paul earlier said, Under the curse. So that the promise might be given to ALL WHO HAVE FAITH. Thus it is the work of Christ we are saved by, Not the work of the law.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Our 4th point, It was given to keep us under guard, To look for the one who would be revealed. the faith of the cross.. The messiah, The true giver of life.

what did the apostle paul say about the law AFTER we have come to the faith of the cross?

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

The law has fulfilled its purpose. It is no more usefull in our lives. The schoolmaster/tutor has done it job, we are no longer under the law

SO people please. Listen to paul. Not these lawyers who want to keep trying to push the law. Which was never intended, and will never make you a holy and righteous people (and no, I am not talking about just salvation. I am talking about our christian life also..)

 

[garee]

As before I agree, but with 2 questions to clarify:

Can faith alone save (as in be all end all, nothing more needed)?

What if one's faith does not have right/good works to accompany it?

Yes the faith of Christ alone can and does save us . He is our faithful Creator who creates a new heart and new spirit in us that will never die .His labor of love accompanies what He believes.

 

[garee]

The new reformed covenant came at the rendering of the veil as another poster said in respect to what Christ; "it is finished" the veil was rent .The time of reformation as to the restoration had come. The old was made obsolete, because of the reformation.

Most of those whom I shared with from my experience don’t want to talk about the first century reformation and restoration. Because it would seem like they want to make some sort of difference with the flesh of one nation against another, even knowing there is one bride, one gospel for all.

The reformation restored the order to another time period (Judges) it did not replace the order as if one nation could replace another.

Covenants don't end with prophets as someone said of John the baptizer.. All prophets come in the Spirit and authority/power of Christ. Not of themselves.All of God’s children stand on the same fallow ground in these earthen bodies of death.

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Elias as that seen typified him not seen (Christ) the Holy Spirit.

And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? Elisa as all believing had the Spirit of Christ in them And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him. Mar 9:11

 

[Hizikyah]

Yes the faith of Christ alone can and does save us . He is our faithful Creator who creates a new heart and new spirit in us that will never die .His labor of love accompanies what He believes.

Faith carries us to change through His Spirit, which leads to a changed heart, changed man and this leads to a change in walk. But faith without anything else:

James 2:
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Unless the word is wrong? Again, works can not save. Only Yah can save, but faith without works, according to the word can not save. We need faith and to walk in His path.

 

[Hizikyah]

Romans 4:4-8
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Yes, thank God, Who blesses us more than we can think or ask.

So does verse 4 and 5 in this passage mean to you that doing good works is counted against you?

and how do you reconcile (however you view that passage) this:

2 Corinthians 5:10 Parallel Verses

The Scriptures
2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we all have to appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, in order for each one to receive according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil."

New International Version
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

For both were written by the same man.

 

[Hizikyah]

The old (which could never make anyone righteous. But was given to lead us to the messiah) Was fulfilled by Christ.
Then the new, Which can make us righteous, took its place.

The above statement for me is to say the Creator is just pointing to himself as the
saviour of the world, which is self evident, and not meaningful.

All the books of the old testament are not redundant, or meaningless. They are to
do with the struggle between the desire for life and functional society, and sin and the
carnal desires of the heart.

Everything from the quick fix groups, is always a one sentence solution, when it has
always been a walk of fellowship and discovery. The rules of this walk mans heart hates,
humbleness, repentance, confession, sacrifice, discipline, faith, trust, love.

None of the above come easy, but this is our calling. But many use words to imply just
forming this reality is being religious and evil. Unfortunately they end up calling God evil.
God appointed priests, put in place festivals, celebrations, ceremonies, special buildings,
places of holiness, and places of defilement from which one must be cleansed.

Equally they deny God sees the sin in our lives, only Christ, but it is shown he sees the
sin and rebukes it.

The old covenant is the reality of the spiritual walk we must walk now on earth.

I enjoyed you post I just want to add it is YHWH who declares righteousness, and therse are great too, righteous by faith, faith that was paired with works in the will of Yah, which I think offers a true perspective of faith:

Hebrews 11:4, "By faith Abel offered to Yah a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, Yah commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks."

Genesis/Bereshith 6:9, "This is the genealogy of Noaḥ. Noaḥ was a righteous man, perfect in his generations. Noaḥ walked with Yah."

Genesis/Bereshith 15:6, "And he (Aḇram) believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."


James 2:20-24, "But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead? Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And he was called, “Yah’s friend.” You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

Ezekiyl 14:14,20, "even though these three men, Noaḥ, Dani’ĕl, and Iyoḇ, were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness,” declares the Master יהוה. 20 even though Noaḥ, Dani’ĕl, and Iyoḇ were in it, as I live,” declares the Master יהוה, “they would deliver neither son nor daughter. They would deliver their own lives by their righteousness.”


2 Peter/Kepha 2:5-7, "and did not spare the world of old, but preserved Noaḥ, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others, bringing in the flood on the world of the wicked, and having reduced to ashes the cities of Seḏom and Amorah condemned them to destruction – having made them an example to those who afterward would live wickedly, and rescued righteous Lot, who was oppressed with the indecent behaviour of the lawless."

Luke 1:5-6, "There was in the days of Herodes, the sovereign of Yehuḏah, a certain priest named Zeḵaryah, of the division of Aḇiyah. And his wife was of the daughters of Aharon, and her name was Elisheḇa. And they were both righteous before Yah, blamelessly walking in all the commands and righteousnesses of יהוה."

Psalm 98:2-3, " יהוה has made known His deliverance; His righteousness He has openly shown Before the eyes of the nations. He has remembered His kindness And His trustworthiness to the house of Yisra’yl; All the ends of the earth have seen The deliverance of our Might One."

It all comes from Yah! HalleluYah!

Psalm 98:2-3, " יהוה has made known His deliverance; His righteousness He has openly shown Before the eyes of the nations. He has remembered His kindness And His trustworthiness to the house of Yisra’yl; All the ends of the earth have seen The deliverance of our Might One."

Isaiah 30:18, "And therefore יהוה shall wait, to show you favour. And therefore He shall be exalted, to have compassion on you. For יהוה is the Strength of right-ruling. Blessed are all those who wait for Him."

Isaiah 53:11, "He would see the result of the suffering of His life and be satisfied. Through His knowledge My righteous Servant makes many righteous, and He bears their crookednesses."

Isaiah 59:16, "And He saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no intercessor. So His own arm saved for Him, and His righteousness upheld him."

 

[gb9]

one should not just post random verses with no context.

 

[Grace777x70]

one should not just post random verses with no context.

That's true...take Col.3:24-25. The context is talking to slaves and their conduct in their work and there will be consequences for those that do wrong with their masters.

Colossians 3:22-25 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men

[SUP]24 [/SUP] knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.


The bible is the most beautiful book in the world and also the most dangerous book in the world. Take things out of context and we can make it say anything we want. All scripture needs to be filtered through the finished work of Christ in light of the New Covenant truths that are in Christ.

 

[Hizikyah]

That's true...take Col.3:24-25. The context is talking to slaves and their conduct in their work and there will be consequences for those that do wrong with their masters.

Colossians 3:22-25 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men

[SUP]24 [/SUP] knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.


The bible is the most beautiful book in the world and also the most dangerous book in the world. Take things out of context and we can make it say anything we want. All scripture needs to be filtered through the finished work of Christ in light of the New Covenant truths that are in Christ.

True the topic is dealing with others on earth, but the follower of Messiah does all in submission to Yah. Therefore it is not any less important.

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am YHWH."

Colossians 3 ESV
18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 20Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 21Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. 22Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters,f not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

 

[Grace777x70]

The wrongdoer is the slave that is doing wrong and he will be punished by his master and their will be no partiality. This scripture is NOT talking about the Lord towards us.

Paul was exhorting the slaves to do their work as unto the Lord because their inheritance is from the Lord and NOT their masters in the natural. If they do wrong - they will be punished. That is the real context.

 

[Hizikyah]

The wrongdoer is the slave that is doing wrong and he will be punished by his master and their will be no partiality. This scripture is NOT talking about the Lord towards us.

Paul was exhorting the slaves to do their work as unto the Lord because their inheritance is from the Lord and NOT their masters in the natural. If they do wrong - they will be punished. That is the real context.

So doing wrong to people only gets negative reaction from people, not negative reaction for the Creator of heaven and earth?

and what about "the inheritance" and " no partiality"



24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

 

[Grace777x70]

So doing wrong to people only gets negative reaction from people, not negative reaction for the Creator of heaven and earth?

and what about "the inheritance" and " no partiality"



24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

Again you are taking what is said to slaves and them getting chastised for wrong doing.

Our inheritance is because of Christ - not because of what we do or don't do. Paul is simply telling the slaves that their inheritance is in Christ not in their work for their masters and don't be a wrongdoer against your masters because they will not be partial to them.

You are confusing "the inheritance" that we have because we are in Christ and trying to apply it to the "no partiality" that the slaves are going to get for their wrongdoing by their masters.

This is where works-based religions miss it.

We have now an inheritance because we are in Christ.

Ephesians 1:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

[SUP]11 [/SUP] also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,


We have obtained is in the aorist tense indicative - and in the passive voice which means it is something given to us by another - not something we earn.

 

[followjesus]

Psalm 51:10, "Create in me a clean heart, O Yah; and renew a right spirit within me."



I want to start by saying this is a very little talked about doctrine, in much need of understanding by the modern seekers of Yahshua/Jesus. So if I may ask, we try to stay focused on the topic. Not anything personal, as I myself am not perfect, and never will be as long as I am in the flesh. Anything denominational as I belong to no denomination, never have and never will, I simply consider myself a member of the Body of Messiah: (Romans 12:3-5, "For by the unmerited mercy given to me, I say to everyone who is among you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought; but rather, think soberly, in accordance as YHWH has dealt to each one the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members do not have the same function, So we, being many, are one body in Messiah: and each one members, one belonging to another.") or any distractions what so ever, unless one sees it as imperative to their point.


After having shared doctrine and spent many hours of the Bible Discussion Forum debating unmerited mercy and/vs Instructions (2 things I believe go hand in hand) I have come to the conclusion that the main stumbling block is the misunderstanding of the "Old" and "New" Covenants. Mainly due to a lack of proper translation, but also due to a lack or reading/understanding/accepting written Scripture.


The first Scripture I would use to prove my view is this:


Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My loving kindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness – I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

It is clearly written: "My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him" and "nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips"

"stand fast" does not mean do away with.


Isayah 59:20-21, "The Redeemer will depart from Zion for those of Yaaqob who repent of their sins! declares YHWH. As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says YHWH: My Spirit which is upon you, namely My Instructions which I have put in your mouth; they will not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your seed, nor from the mouth of your seed's seed, says YHWH: from this time and forevermore."


Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."


Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is YHWH our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."


Galatians 3:28-29, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Messiah Yahshua. And if you are Messiah’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

There is only one way, that way is through Yahshua/Jesus. There is not one path for the Hebrew and one for the Gentile. For if you are a follower of Messiah you are no longer a Gentile, but and Israylite.

"it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl"

really good post. I agree that one of the main issues is that people ignore or reject or omit scripture that doesnt support whatever personal view they have. in the end i think its spirit v flesh.....good post thanks for taking the time to share

 

[Hizikyah]

Again you are taking what is said to slaves and them getting chastised for wrong doing.

Our inheritance is because of Christ - not because of what we do or don't do. Paul is simply telling the slaves that their inheritance is in Christ not in their work for their masters and don't be a wrongdoer against your masters because they will not be partial to them.

You are confusing "the inheritance" that we have because we are in Christ and trying to apply it to the "no partiality" that the slaves are going to get for their wrongdoing by their masters.

This is where works-based religions miss it.

We have now an inheritance because we are in Christ.

Ephesians 1:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

[SUP]11 [/SUP] also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,


We have obtained is in the aorist tense indicative - and in the passive voice which means it is something given to us by another - not something we earn.

None can enter in without His mercy, no doubt, but to think what we do does not matter goes against Scripture.

I have 2 questions please:

1 - Is this Scripture true:

Yahanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Young's Literal Translation
Revelation 22:12-15, "And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; 13I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last. Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie."

King James Bible
Revelation 22:12-15, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

King James 2000
Revelation 22:12-15, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."

World English Bible
Revelation 22:12-15, "Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

The Scriptures

Revelation 22:12-15, "And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood."

Revelation 20:12-13, “And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before YHWH. And the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and Death and Sheol delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged, every man, according to their works.”

2 - And is it true or a lie when it is written "and their works follow with them"

Rev 14:12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Ylohim and the belief of יהושע.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labours, and their works follow with them.”