EG, I forgot to say, I didn't think you were being mean. I really like talking with you very much. I have never felt you were being mean to me - not even once!
When did the Law expire?
- Thread starter ZEEK
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Does the Spirit Force you to be perfect?
When i listen to the Spirit and obey by Surrendering (die to self) the Spirit gives power.
When He knocks i can let Him (surrender) in or lock Him out.
I wish i could do nothing and obedience just happened.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
We need to choose who we want to serve, the Holy Spirit will not force us to serve and obey Jesus.
And we need to know the commandments in order to serve them.
Do i purposely stay ignorant to the law to i'm not accountable.
Sure if we Obey the Spirit we Obey the law because the Spirit is perfect. But should we say the law is gone, done away with, abolished, no longer relevant. If the law is not for us today (if we don't need to obey it) the Spirit would not convict us, and we would not feel guilty or have a conscience when something is wrong. The law must stand because the Spirit is still telling me it is wrong to murder and steal.
If we throw away the written law because the Spirit does everything know the next step will be to throw away the written word (the Bible) because the spirit has replaced it.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
We need to make an effort. Grace is not cheap it Cost God His Son.
The Law (with the help of the Spirit) is there to prevent us from sinning, Jesus is there to save us when we do sin.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
yep Grace teaches us to Love the Lords Ways
1 john 5:3 "In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, "
the issue is the false Grace that people buy into, thats what causes the conflict between law and Grace.....IF we Just take what Jesus teaches as the truth, Both Grace and Law work in perfect unison to bring righteousness and peace. Gods Grace = 'Neither do i condemn you, now go and sin no more"
Grace alone doctrine will not accept any condition that Jesus Himself made abundantly Clear. He saved us, gave us new birth through Hois word....NOW we serve the King, we no longer have the excuse that those under Law had. We are redeemed in order to Live Lives worthy of Jesus sacrifice, and Grace Gods Grace, is not what people teach in modern church. it is so much more than the numerous omissions the gospel of grace tries to teach, i feel bad for those who dont spend time in the word.......Deception is prevelant and working hard to keep folks from the truth
We are saved by grace through faith not from the works we do. We will do good works but it is a by-product of the life of Christ in us. It is His life bearing good fruit to His glory in and through us to a hurt and dying world.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
As we received Christ - that is the exact same way we walk in Him. Totally dependent on His life, grace , mercy in our lives and we live by faith in Him and the faith of Christ.
Colossians 2:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
The Christian has died to the Law, been released from the Law and is not under the Law of Moses but under grace only.
Until we understand that - we will be making man-made doctrines of works-based religion that in effect denies the very Lord Jesus Christ that has saved us and denying what He has already done for us in His work on the cross and resurrection.
- and that we too have died with Him on the cross and been raised up and are seated with Him now at the right hand of the Father.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
As we received Christ - that is the exact same way we walk in Him. Totally dependent on His life, grace , mercy in our lives and we live by faith in Him and the faith of Christ.
Colossians 2:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
The Christian has died to the Law, been released from the Law and is not under the Law of Moses but under grace only.
Until we understand that - we will be making man-made doctrines of works-based religion that in effect denies the very Lord Jesus Christ that has saved us and denying what He has already done for us in His work on the cross and resurrection.
- and that we too have died with Him on the cross and been raised up and are seated with Him now at the right hand of the Father.
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True created in Jesus to walk in good works. If it happened automatically than the whole world would be doing good works.
But we have a flesh to fight, a race to run and the law helps us to know what is right and wrong.
Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The Christian has died to the Law, been released from the Law and is not under the Law of Moses but under grace only.
What do you mean by the law of Moses?
A simple question how are we sinners (therefore needing grace) if there is no law to condemn us?
The Law of Moses is everything in the Old Covenant that God gave to the Israelites on Mount Sinai.
Before we receive Christ and die to the Law of Moses we as gentiles knew we had sinned and did wrong.
If you look at the word for word examples in Acts 13 of the preaching of the gospel - there was no Law given but the Romans knew they had sinned because they believed that their sins were forgiven.
...as a gentile I didn't need to hear anything about the law of Moses to know I was doing wrong as Paul says in Romans 2. We all know that we have done something wrong in our lives within ourselves.
Romans 2:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
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I believe there are sometimes omissions too. It seems that salvation by grace alone, through faith, which I believe and know with all my heart, has now become something I don't recognize any more. I heard someone say yesterday that they were concerned that a christian might worry that they could cast out as a worthless branch for not continuing to abide. That there was concern that someone might be misled to believe they were in danger of losing salvation if they did not continue to abide/trust. I just didn't even know what to answer. I can't even understand how it has come to be where men say that Gods' hands are now tied against unbelief/not continuing to abide/trust. I just don't even recognize it any more...
It's easier to walk by Faith when your desire Is not worldly anymore,so then the born of the Spirit of GOD person should renew their minds and present their bodies a living sacrifice and that Is reasonable.
The law condemns us as sinners.
Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The Law is good and Holy but is our downfall.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
We are saved by faith alone
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
We continue to establish the law
Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
We are not saved by the law and we can't earn or work our way to heaven but the law stands as a standard of righteousness.
Jesus obeyed the law perfectly and was righteous, We are the children of God and we are given the righteousness of Christ. Do i continue to sin or do i obey because i love the Lord? As a child of God do i act like a disobedient rebel or do i obey the righteousness that is Good and Holy and loving for everyone.
If you love God you will obey.
Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The Law is good and Holy but is our downfall.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
We are saved by faith alone
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
We continue to establish the law
Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
We are not saved by the law and we can't earn or work our way to heaven but the law stands as a standard of righteousness.
Jesus obeyed the law perfectly and was righteous, We are the children of God and we are given the righteousness of Christ. Do i continue to sin or do i obey because i love the Lord? As a child of God do i act like a disobedient rebel or do i obey the righteousness that is Good and Holy and loving for everyone.
If you love God you will obey.
God is doing the work, (justification, sanctification, and Glorification)
But we can choose, we have the right to accept or reject God.
We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.
There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.
Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.
Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
We now live by:
1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )
2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )
3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )
4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )
5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )
We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the Old Covenant that was a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more than enough. We can trust the Holy Spirit within us to lead us because we are children of God now.
Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )
Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.
Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.
Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.
We now live by:
1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )
2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )
3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )
4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )
5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )
We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the Old Covenant that was a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more than enough. We can trust the Holy Spirit within us to lead us because we are children of God now.
Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )
Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
I believe many of the laws given to Israel were a shadow of Christ to point them to the cross, and that when Jesus died they were no longer needed because Jesus fulfilled them.
But what about the 10 commandments they are all practical commandments that we should obey, but many say "except the Sabbath."
The closer we come to the righteousness of God the more our sins are revealed (sanctification), and the same has been my experience with the 10 commandments. what i thought was "not murder", 10 years ago (the literal outward act) has changed. Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
By studying the word of God we come to a better understanding of the righteousness and character that He desires to create in us through faith. Jesus will Justify us today, but He also wants to recreate in us a perfect character.
Yes, Jesus elevated the Law to show the self-righteousness of those relying on the Law for righteousness and to expose their need for a Savior. I call it Jesus preached Moses 2.0 - the Law on steroids.
A Christian could be born again and living by the Spirit of God within them and never have heard of the 10 commandments and the love of God in them would fulfill the intent of not murdering.
To tell you the truth - I barely even know what the 10 commandments are and I don't need to know. I can trust the life of Christ in me for life and living now.
I don't need to "obey" Lev. 18:23 or to even know it exists in order not to have sex with animals. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus would stop that.
Take a look at this post below about the 10 commandments in relation to the New Covenant.
The 10 commandments is called by Paul who knew the Law of Moses better than anyone - the ministry of death and condemnation vs. the ministry of life and righteousness.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/143790-when-did-law-expire-12.html#post2856011
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If you obey the fruits of the Spirit, or any other law that Paul or James tells us to obey, and obey "the greatest one" that Jesus said to obey
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
This is a summery of all the laws
Is it wrong to try and understand them in more detail?
Is it right or wrong to keep the Sabbath holy
Is it right or wrong to worship stone images
Is it right or wrong to be homosexual
God doesn't change
If it was God's character in the old testament than it's His character today. and unless God makes it clear the laws don't change either.
I believe we need to listen to our hearts and be lead by the spirit but without a foundation of truth we are stuck in ignorance.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Is it possible that we are ignorant of some of Gods laws?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
This is a summery of all the laws
Is it wrong to try and understand them in more detail?
Is it right or wrong to keep the Sabbath holy
Is it right or wrong to worship stone images
Is it right or wrong to be homosexual
God doesn't change
If it was God's character in the old testament than it's His character today. and unless God makes it clear the laws don't change either.
I believe we need to listen to our hearts and be lead by the spirit but without a foundation of truth we are stuck in ignorance.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Is it possible that we are ignorant of some of Gods laws?
How Is It possible to change GOD's workmanship which Is a spiritual work with the flesh.
I don't want you to think that I'm saying It's okay to sin because Grace abounds,but I'm saying that a person that got saved doesn't want to sin because they have become a new creation,GOD's workmanship created IN CHRIST.
This Is a spiritual work.
The Spirit gives Life,not the flesh.
I agree with most of what you say i just like to know God's will through His word because the Devil can appear as an angel of light and tell me that it is a good thing to wrong. Jesus was faced with the temptations of the devil and He quoted the old testament.
It is written is our safeguard, feelings and emotions can deceive us.
It is written is our safeguard, feelings and emotions can deceive us.