The King James Only Debate

[trofimus]

What you use are the exact things the KJV has only that is ofc in English. Unless you mean you actually read Greek and Hebrew whch I wouldn't recommend.

This is very against the principle of reformation. You are having the same view as the roman church with its perfect latin tranlsation had in the middle ages.

And I believe there are no errors in the KJV so if you feel there are you can post them and I'll try to answer em.

If you believe there are no errors (your closed unchaging position) there is no point in showing you errors in it. Because it would go against your belief and you would find always some explanations (some will be possible, some will be silly).

To show errors is for people who are not closed in their beliefs/opinions and are searching for truth. Who are neutral on the subject.

 

[The_Bible]

This is very against the principle of reformation. You are having the same view as the roman church with its perfect latin tranlsation had in the middle ages.



If you believe there are no errors (your closed unchaging position) there is no point in showing you errors in it. Because it would go against your belief and you would find always some explanations (some will be possible, some will be silly).

To show errors is for people who are not closed in their beliefs/opinions and are searching for truth. Who are neutral on the subject.

The Roman Catholics want a ONE WORLD WIDE CHURCH governed by a single Pope. That is not what I, or any KJV only believer wants, but rather a infallible Bible that any Christian can base their creed with. Just like the councils did they all just accept every manuscript or did they debate which one had the true definitions of its teachings? Without the word of God we wouldn't have had Christianity so with all these Bibles teaching different things how do you know what you believe is truth?

You DO NOT make the bible fit the congregation, you make the congregation fit the bible. Is as simple as that, so what are we? We are simply Christians. What does being a Christian mean? Or rather what is the definition of a Christian?


Christianity - People or a group who have a spiritual relationship with God THROUGH Christ, believing in the bible 100%.

That Bible for me & for many have said to be the KJV it has the reputation as the authorized version. Now with that definition ^ you now have the responsibility as a Christian of being careful to not being contradicting the Bible in saying statements, like any other person who doesn't have Christ, but is a good person and/or has faith in God can enter heaven. That is considered heresy & bc we are not emphasized on religion we aren't put to death like in the case of William Tyndale who only translated the Bible into English.

John 21:24 - This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true

Romans (1:16-17) - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[trofimus]

That Bible for me & for many have said to be the KJV it has the reputation as the authorized version.

Who said KJV is authorized? I very doubt he had/has any authority over me.

 

[posthuman]

perhaps if we all learn to read in Hebrew & Greek these contentions will cease.

((but then, here is Fra Trofimus, who reads in Czech, but that fact doesn't seem to be the sign to the KJV-only crowd that it ought to be...))

 

[Ahwatukee]

Who said KJV is authorized? I very doubt he had/has any authority over me.

I don't know why people restrict themselves to the KJV only. When studying scriptures I can bring up all of the major translations side by side to see how each one translates. I can also look at the interlinear and study the actual Greek or Hebrew words used in the verse. These options give a much better understanding of what is being said.

 

[KJV1611]

And for the record, yes I know there is a lot of argument about that verse. But you asked for it so I gave you it.

There's also the question of whether Judas hanged himself or threw himself off a cliff. Acts 1:18 versus Matthew 27:5.

This one Judas hung himself, decayed and then the rope broke or his neck gave way and when his body fell his guts exploded.

 

[trofimus]

perhaps if we all learn to read in Hebrew & Greek these contentions will cease.

((but then, here is Fra Trofimus, who reads in Czech, but that fact doesn't seem to be the sign to the KJV-only crowd that it ought to be...))

Actually, I am reading in Czech less and less... so I will accomodate to the majority lol

Or... you all should learn Czech and read Bible Kralická from 1613, the only one authorized Bible.

 

[trofimus]

I don't know why people restrict themselves to the KJV only. When studying scriptures I can bring up all of the major translations side by side to see how each one translates. I can also look at the interlinear and study the actual Greek or Hebrew words used in the verse. These options give a much better understanding of what is being said.

They probably need to have some final authority, they do not want to study languages or use more books than one.

I can understand this feeling, I would also want one and only one final and perfect translation of Bible. But there is no such edition... so we must put some effort to study. At least, while we are on this Earth.

 

[Yonah]

Then you must admit that we don't have truth. Right? If only the "originals" can be considered truth, then we don't have truth. What are we to live by(Matthew 4:4)? Where's the word of truth that will sanctify us(John 17:17)?

see going to extremes is not the best idea of course we have truth, the Holy spirit will guide and lead all who seek it, the father is well able to work through the fallability of man to bring a pure truth... so no I need not say there is not truth, you and others should not set limits on Gods amazing power...

 

[KJV1611]

perhaps if we all learn to read in Hebrew & Greek these contentions will cease.

((but then, here is Fra Trofimus, who reads in Czech, but that fact doesn't seem to be the sign to the KJV-only crowd that it ought to be...))

Posthuman you're a smart guy (I mean that) and English is your first langauge. I would like to get your opinion of the 70/75 error, are you familiar with that error?

 

[trofimus]

Posthuman you're a smart guy (I mean that) and English is your first langauge. I would like to get your opinion of the 70/75 error, are you familiar with that error?

Or 42 vs 20

 

[KJV1611]

Or 42 vs 20

What's 42 vs 20?

 

[trofimus]

What's 42 vs 20?

The different age of Ochozias or what was his name...

 

[BigD9832]

The KJV does not use any Septuagint texts only the Masoretic which is in hebrew.

I didn't say that the Septuagint was used in the KJV. I said the term "lucifer" comes from a mistake in the Septuagint.

There are plenty of verses that say sheol or hell is in the earth aka grave or pit. Idk what Bible is that but is uh very different.

I use the Concordant Literal Version. I have explained that in my thread "New Guy."


If you want to know more go to http://concordant.org/


All you are doing (or all the KJV is doing) is interpreting the text. Not translating it. The kjv is one of like 3 English versions that still use the word "hell."


Here is a list...


Year A.D.
BIBLE VERSION
Old T
New T
Total


400
The Latin Vulgate/Douay-Rheims
77
24
101


1611
King James Version
31
23
54


1884
Hanson’s New Covenant
n/a
0
0


1891
Young’s Literal Translation
0
0
0


1900
Twentieth Century New Testament
n/a
0
0


1901
American Standard Version
0
13
13


1902
Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible
0
0
0


1903
Weymouth’s New Testament
n/a
0
0


1917
Jewish Publication Society Bible OT
0
n/a
0


1942
Emphatic Diaglott Greek /English Int.
n/a
0
0


1952
Revised Standard Version
0
17
17


1978
New International Version
0
14
14


1976
Restoration of Original Sacred Name
0
0
0


1982
New King James Version
19
13
32


1983
Concordant Literal NT
n/a
0
0


1998
Tanakh/The Complete Jewish Bible
0
n/a
0


2004
Holman Christian Standard Bible
0
10
10


Only the Catholic versions and the KJV use the word "hell."

There are many more that do not.

 

[trofimus]

I didn't say that the Septuagint was used in the KJV. I said the term "lucifer" comes from a mistake in the Septuagint.

I use and prefer Septuagint... can you be more specific? Sounds interesting.

 

[BigD9832]

Let's try these in a little more accurate version...


CLV Ps 9:17 The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim.


CLV Ps 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.


CLV Ps 30:3 O Yahweh, You have brought my soul up from the unseen; You have preserved me alive from descending to the crypt.


CLV Ps 86:13 For Your benignity over me is great, And You have rescued my soul from the unseen beneath.


Butif you actually read these verses they will all prove my point. Most of these verses talk about the Resurrection. This is God's way of helping us deal with death.


There is nothing in Ezekiel 31:15-17 that indicates this is a story about "lucifer."

 

[trofimus]

Let's try these in a little more accurate version...


CLV Ps 9:17 The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim.


CLV Ps 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.


CLV Ps 30:3 O Yahweh, You have brought my soul up from the unseen; You have preserved me alive from descending to the crypt.


CLV Ps 86:13 For Your benignity over me is great, And You have rescued my soul from the unseen beneath.


Butif you actually read these verses they will all prove my point. Most of these verses talk about the Resurrection. This is God's way of helping us deal with death.


There is nothing in Ezekiel 31:15-17 that indicates this is a story about "lucifer."

It this post was for me, I did not find any "lucifer" term in Ezekiel in Septuagint.

"Thus saith the Lord God; In the day wherein he went down to Hades, the deep mourned for him: and I stayed her floods, and restrained her abundance of water: and Libanus saddened for him, all the trees of the field fainted for him. 16 At the sound of his fall the nations quaked, when I brought him down to Hades with them that go down to the pit: and all the trees of Delight comforted him in the heart, and the choice of [plants] of Libanus, all that drink water. 17 For they went down to hell with him among the slain with the sword; and his seed, [even] they that dwelt under his shadow, perished in the midst of their life."

Jezekiel 31:15-17, LXX

 

[BigD9832]

I use and prefer Septuagint... can you be more specific? Sounds interesting.

There isn't much else to tell. The term "lucifer" is only found once in your KJV.It is not found at all in the Masoretic Text or the Tanakh.


Here is an article you might want to read. I'm sure you can find other on that web site, if you search.


Isaiah 14 | Concordant Publishing Concern

 

[BigD9832]

Judgement is about God setting what is wrong to right


krisis - decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law)


It seems that in an effort to support their Doctrine of Hell the church, the King James version has changed the meanings of several verses from a neutral meaning 'judgment' to 'condemnation' and 'damnation.'


Thus word 'judgment' itself has become a very unstable word in our language. It has come to mean punishment, not it's original use of a neutral process. The Authorized version renders the word 'judgement as 'condemnation' and 'damnation' about 13 times.


Take this example from...


AV Dt 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment...


CLV Dt 1:17 You shall not recognize faces with partiality in judgment...


The Authorized version seems a bit more harsh, where a closer rendering encourages a more neutral attitude.


Examples like these are spread throughout the Scriptures.


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Here are examples of how the term 'judgment' got changed into 'damnation'...


CLV Mt 23:33 "Serpents! Progeny of vipers! How may you be fleeing from the judging of Gehenna?


AV Mt 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


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CLV Mk 12:40 who are devouring the homes of widows, and for a pretense are prolix in praying. These will be getting more excessive judgment."


AV Mk 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.


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CLV Lk 20:47 who are devouring the homes of widows and, for a pretense, are prolix in praying. These will be getting more excessive judgment."


AV Lk 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.


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CLV Jn 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.


AV Jn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


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CLV Ro 3:8 and why not say, according as we are calumniated and according as any/some are averring that we are saying, that "We should be doing evil that good may be coming?" whose judgment is fair.


AV Ro 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.


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CLV Ro 13:2 so that he who is resisting an authority has withstood God's mandate. Now those who have withstood, will be getting judgment for themselves,


AV Ro 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


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CLV 1C 11:29 For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord.


AV 1C 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


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In many cases the King James version represents judgment as a past event and damnation as a result.


Judgement of the nations does not begin until Jesus Christ returns. The nations nor individuals have not been judged so there has been no damnation.


--------------------------------------------------------


Here are examples of how the term 'judgment' got changed into 'condemnation'...


CLV Luke 23:40 Yet answering, the other one, rebuking him, averred, "Yet you are not fearing God, seeing that you are in the same judgment!


AV Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?


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CLV John 3:19 Now this is the judging: that the light has come into the world, and men love the darkness rather than the light, for their acts were wicked.


AV John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


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CLV John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.


AV John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


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CLV 1Cor 11:34 Now if anyone may be hungry, let him eat in/at home, that you may not be coming together into/for judgment. Now the rest I shall be prescribing as soon as I should be coming.


AV 1Cor 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


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CLV 1Ti 3:6 no novice, lest, being conceited, he should be falling in into the judgment of the Adversary.


AV 1Tim 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.


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CLV James 3:1 Not many should become teachers, my brethren, being aware that we shall be getting greater judgment.


AV James 3:1 . My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


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CLV James 5:12 Now before all, my brethren, do not be swearing, neither by heaven, nor by the earth, nor any other oath. Now let your "yes" be "yes," and "not" be "not," lest you should be falling under judging.


AV James 5:12 . But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


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CLV Jude 1:4 For any/some human/men slip in who long ago have been written beforehand into/for this judgment; irreverent, bartering the grace of our God into/for wantonness, and disowning our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.


AV Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


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Again judgment seems to be in the past as condemnation, a result of judging, replaces this process.


Even in the United States an effort is made to provide a fair and just judgment for it's citizens, even in it's imperfect state. How much more fair would be God's judgment?

 

[Stephen63]

Bishop means high priest, Is Christ the bishop of your soul?

I don't know whether you just don't get it or really don't care.