what has been fulfilled?
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again - God does not make a distinction between earthly jeruslame now and any other nation.
His plan went exactly as He said it would.
1967 is meaningless.
all His Promises have been fulfilled, except for us the promise of eternity.
gotta push up daisies for that to kick in
after God used the romans (and the other beasts before that - Daniel's metal man image) to carry out His plan for israell and Jerusalem, He then proceeded to bring about the fall of the romans (over-extended; civil war).
Imperial Rome was the fourth (and last) beast in Daniel for a reason.
anything that has happened since then just isn't mentioned.
and sensibly we can see that THE GOSPEL is God's plan for all today - nothing else.
right.
who redrew and is currently redrawing the map hundreds of times?
how many countries in the world today are failed miserable banana republics? < are they blessed by God? I do not know.
how about a nation with 56 million abortions under its belt - is this nation blessed by God? I doubt it.
no. aside from karaites, they practice the traditions of the elders - TALMUD < occult blasphemy
Karaite Judaism or Karaism (also spelt Qaraite Judaism or Qaraism), (/ˈkærə.aɪt/ or /ˈkærə.ɪzəm/; Hebrew: יהדות קראית, Modern Yahadut Qara'it from, Tiberian Qārāʾîm; meaning "Readers")[a] is a Jewish religious movement characterized by the recognition of the Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in Halakha (Jewish religious law) and theology. It is distinct from mainstream Rabbinic Judaism, which considers the Oral Torah, as codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, to be authoritative interpretations of the Torah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
they say they do, but just like the Pharisees, they do not.
The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees
more on this later.
His plan went exactly as He said it would.
1967 is meaningless.
all His Promises have been fulfilled, except for us the promise of eternity.
gotta push up daisies for that to kick in
after God used the romans (and the other beasts before that - Daniel's metal man image) to carry out His plan for israell and Jerusalem, He then proceeded to bring about the fall of the romans (over-extended; civil war).
Imperial Rome was the fourth (and last) beast in Daniel for a reason.
anything that has happened since then just isn't mentioned.
and sensibly we can see that THE GOSPEL is God's plan for all today - nothing else.
right.
who redrew and is currently redrawing the map hundreds of times?
how many countries in the world today are failed miserable banana republics? < are they blessed by God? I do not know.
how about a nation with 56 million abortions under its belt - is this nation blessed by God? I doubt it.
no. aside from karaites, they practice the traditions of the elders - TALMUD < occult blasphemy
Karaite Judaism or Karaism (also spelt Qaraite Judaism or Qaraism), (/ˈkærə.aɪt/ or /ˈkærə.ɪzəm/; Hebrew: יהדות קראית, Modern Yahadut Qara'it from, Tiberian Qārāʾîm; meaning "Readers")[a] is a Jewish religious movement characterized by the recognition of the Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in Halakha (Jewish religious law) and theology. It is distinct from mainstream Rabbinic Judaism, which considers the Oral Torah, as codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, to be authoritative interpretations of the Torah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
they say they do, but just like the Pharisees, they do not.
The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees
my opinion - there were two literal people who were prophesying about the coming judgment and were murdered for it, and I believe they quite literally resurrected after 3 days.
like so much of what we need to know, it's likely lost (buried) who they were, and it doesn't matter (to me).
it's just my opinion of course, since I have no proof. josephus fills in so much, but as far as I can tell, this is not mentioned by him (though you should read the accounts of angels and fire and clouds over Jerusalem).
it's the only explanation that fits with the rest of the text, which is actually pretty straight forward.
I've put that aside until I see evidence of who they were/are.
as for the LOCATION of this event, which city is described? the great city. Babylon. where Our Lord was crucified.
like so much of what we need to know, it's likely lost (buried) who they were, and it doesn't matter (to me).
it's just my opinion of course, since I have no proof. josephus fills in so much, but as far as I can tell, this is not mentioned by him (though you should read the accounts of angels and fire and clouds over Jerusalem).
it's the only explanation that fits with the rest of the text, which is actually pretty straight forward.
I've put that aside until I see evidence of who they were/are.
as for the LOCATION of this event, which city is described? the great city. Babylon. where Our Lord was crucified.
M
I would like to share that the book of revelation is not in chronological order except as pertains to the trumpets and seals and churches consecutively being explained. What John wrote about the seven churches have three applications. The seven churches are the physical seven churches Paul started in Asia. Also the seven churches are referring to the condition of God's true church form when Paul first started them, and the third application refers to our personal experience as we grow in Christ. Too bad we do not stay at Ephesus, but we all end up in Laodicea, when we should have stopped at Philadelphia the church of brotherly love. The explanation of the churches themselves is the spiritual explanation of the churches.
The seven seals are referring to the same time period as the churches but is referring to the civil and political condition of the different church periods. I use to believe that the seals, the trumpets, the thunders and the seven last plagues were all in the future but that is quite a stretch, because most of the book of revelation explains these events. These events are spread out over history from the beginning of the church until Jesus comes. We are living in the time of the seventh seal, and the seventh trumpet or third woe. The third trumpet, for example is referring to Atilla and the Huns. Atilla was called wormwood somewhere in history. The first trumpet was Alaric, the second was Genseric. These were the great horde wars of the early roman empire.
The seals are about the same. The first seal mentions a bow and going forth to conquer. In the beginning the church went fast and strong, then the red horse refers to taking peace from the earth, very shortly after the beginning of the church era persecution raged and many were killed just for not bowing to the emperor, and Christians were lined up at the coliseum and told that they could live if they offered incense to a deity, if not they would end up food for the lions or other horror. The third seal was about the time of Constantine when there was relative peace and prosperity until the first SUNday laws and then the fourth seal was the death horse and all hell in the form of religious persecution broke loose on humanity. If you would not become catholic you were burned on your lawn during those days. Over 100 million people were murdered by the catholic church during the death horse time period. To leave this out of the book of revelation is quite odd.
Satan was only cast out of heaven one time, when Jesus gave up the Ghost. He was able to come here and go to heaven like we read about in the book of Job 1:6&7, but it wasn't until Jesus died that satan's true colors were exposed to all the angels and he was cast out and became the devil and satan. Satan was not allowed in heaven after Jesus death. That is why Jesus said He saw satan as lightening fall to the ground.
The seven seals are referring to the same time period as the churches but is referring to the civil and political condition of the different church periods. I use to believe that the seals, the trumpets, the thunders and the seven last plagues were all in the future but that is quite a stretch, because most of the book of revelation explains these events. These events are spread out over history from the beginning of the church until Jesus comes. We are living in the time of the seventh seal, and the seventh trumpet or third woe. The third trumpet, for example is referring to Atilla and the Huns. Atilla was called wormwood somewhere in history. The first trumpet was Alaric, the second was Genseric. These were the great horde wars of the early roman empire.
The seals are about the same. The first seal mentions a bow and going forth to conquer. In the beginning the church went fast and strong, then the red horse refers to taking peace from the earth, very shortly after the beginning of the church era persecution raged and many were killed just for not bowing to the emperor, and Christians were lined up at the coliseum and told that they could live if they offered incense to a deity, if not they would end up food for the lions or other horror. The third seal was about the time of Constantine when there was relative peace and prosperity until the first SUNday laws and then the fourth seal was the death horse and all hell in the form of religious persecution broke loose on humanity. If you would not become catholic you were burned on your lawn during those days. Over 100 million people were murdered by the catholic church during the death horse time period. To leave this out of the book of revelation is quite odd.
Satan was only cast out of heaven one time, when Jesus gave up the Ghost. He was able to come here and go to heaven like we read about in the book of Job 1:6&7, but it wasn't until Jesus died that satan's true colors were exposed to all the angels and he was cast out and became the devil and satan. Satan was not allowed in heaven after Jesus death. That is why Jesus said He saw satan as lightening fall to the ground.
You mean 3 1/2 days?
Were their described abilities vs. 3-6, literal or symbolic?
For someone who studies prophecies, you should know and not to disregard the details.
The Law and the Prophets, living in the people of Israel?
Now witnessing, in restored to Jerusalem Israel, that God's promise to restore them is true?
I thought that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.
There is no evidence in that passage R ch 11, to associate Jerusalem with Babylon.
--
But you say that this is past? 70 ad?
Were their described abilities vs. 3-6, literal or symbolic?
For someone who studies prophecies, you should know and not to disregard the details.
The Law and the Prophets, living in the people of Israel?
Now witnessing, in restored to Jerusalem Israel, that God's promise to restore them is true?
I thought that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.
There is no evidence in that passage R ch 11, to associate Jerusalem with Babylon.
--
But you say that this is past? 70 ad?
since I don't know who they were, I can't say.
I wasn't there.
you don't know who they are/were either.
i've seen that interpretation before and it doesn't sit right.
maybe.
if you mean today or future, that's a laugh.
the Law & Prophets in Israel today is non existent.
Talmud denigrates the Law and ridicules the prophets.
the promise of restoration to the land was fulfilled when they were brought out of, went out of Babylon.
it's all well documented.
they got there in time for the arrival of THE PROMISE, Jesus.
that's how we have the first hand accounts
a few received Him and were saved and became the disciples/apostles.
their message about another LAND PROMISE is here:
Hebrews 11
8By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
Revelation 17
The Woman on the Beast
…4And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. She held in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5On her forehead a mysterious name was written: Babylon the Great, the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth. 6I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus. And I was greatly astonished at the sight of her.…
which city murdered the prophets and saints?
Jerusalem.
known and named as Sodom & Egypt.
the name Babylon attached to her signifies not only sin and corruption like Sodom & Egypt, but now also total desolation.
heres the prophecy of her (actual Babylon) destruction, just like literal Sodom & Gomorrah:
Isaiah 13
Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
those terms of derision was applied to Jerusalem and the jews knew it (some knew).
the destruction of the great harlot Babylon was complete in 70AD.
I wasn't there.
you don't know who they are/were either.
i've seen that interpretation before and it doesn't sit right.
maybe.
if you mean today or future, that's a laugh.
the Law & Prophets in Israel today is non existent.
Talmud denigrates the Law and ridicules the prophets.
the promise of restoration to the land was fulfilled when they were brought out of, went out of Babylon.
it's all well documented.
they got there in time for the arrival of THE PROMISE, Jesus.
that's how we have the first hand accounts
a few received Him and were saved and became the disciples/apostles.
their message about another LAND PROMISE is here:
Hebrews 11
8By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
Revelation 17
The Woman on the Beast
…4And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. She held in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5On her forehead a mysterious name was written: Babylon the Great, the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth. 6I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus. And I was greatly astonished at the sight of her.…
which city murdered the prophets and saints?
Jerusalem.
known and named as Sodom & Egypt.
the name Babylon attached to her signifies not only sin and corruption like Sodom & Egypt, but now also total desolation.
heres the prophecy of her (actual Babylon) destruction, just like literal Sodom & Gomorrah:
Isaiah 13
Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
those terms of derision was applied to Jerusalem and the jews knew it (some knew).
the destruction of the great harlot Babylon was complete in 70AD.
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If God gives prophecey and it was fulfilled in the days of the authors of bible, then it will be in the Bible, God is not going to bury a prophecy without any documentation of it if it is going to be fulfilled. just dismissing the event by saying it must of happened, but lack of proof it happened does not matter is burying your head in the sand and totally avoiding the issue. Also the early church would be all over the two witness event, but that seems contridictory as well, as if it happens after the Revelation of John, the Christian church was well established at that time, which contridicts the other prophecy that everyone has turned against God, which they had not at that time you claim.
Another point, I am surprised that you say this was a physical event, you make a big noise about others stating some things are physical and some things are just spiritual and metaphoric, yet its fine when you do the same.
One thing I keep to, is that if you have to work hard to make something fit a theory, t hen it often is wrong, I have no problem with reading Revelation and Daniel as it is and understanding that this is a future event. Millienilsts on the other hand have to work a lot harder and you find that things keep on unravelling and you end up numerous paths to chase down with complex theories to make the original point work. That is proof enough the theory is wrong.
Another point, I am surprised that you say this was a physical event, you make a big noise about others stating some things are physical and some things are just spiritual and metaphoric, yet its fine when you do the same.
One thing I keep to, is that if you have to work hard to make something fit a theory, t hen it often is wrong, I have no problem with reading Revelation and Daniel as it is and understanding that this is a future event. Millienilsts on the other hand have to work a lot harder and you find that things keep on unravelling and you end up numerous paths to chase down with complex theories to make the original point work. That is proof enough the theory is wrong.
Hello Zone,
Regardless of what their names are, their time of prophecy and the events of wrath would matter. These two men are going to bring severe plagues upon the earth, so much so that, the people of the earth will send each other gifts and gloat over them when the beast kills them. They will not allow their bodies to be buried and will lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days.
Their time of prophecy will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, with Christ returning after the end of that seven years. The seals, trumpet and bowl judgments and all that the two witnesses will perform, will all take place leading up to Christ's return to end the age.
Regardless of what their names are, their time of prophecy and the events of wrath would matter. These two men are going to bring severe plagues upon the earth, so much so that, the people of the earth will send each other gifts and gloat over them when the beast kills them. They will not allow their bodies to be buried and will lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days.
Their time of prophecy will take place during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, with Christ returning after the end of that seven years. The seals, trumpet and bowl judgments and all that the two witnesses will perform, will all take place leading up to Christ's return to end the age.
Hello masmpg,
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the order that they appear in Revelation with each set of seven plagues following each other, i.e. seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments, with Jesus returning to the earth to end the age sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out.
The only way that anyone can claim that the seals, trumpets and bowl have been fulfilled is by symbolizing/allegorizing them. But when they are interpreted in the literal sense, then it demonstrates the severity of God's coming wrath upon this earth. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet alone, the fatalities would be approx. 4.5 billion people, based on 7 billion.
No, these are not historical events, but are meant to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the order that they appear in Revelation with each set of seven plagues following each other, i.e. seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments, with Jesus returning to the earth to end the age sometime after the 7th bowl has been poured out.
The only way that anyone can claim that the seals, trumpets and bowl have been fulfilled is by symbolizing/allegorizing them. But when they are interpreted in the literal sense, then it demonstrates the severity of God's coming wrath upon this earth. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet alone, the fatalities would be approx. 4.5 billion people, based on 7 billion.
No, these are not historical events, but are meant to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government.
Zone,
It tells us who they are ,
R 11:4, "These are the two olive trees,and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
The parallel passage in Zech 4:1-14, tells us that these 2 olive trees are "the word of the Lord", v 6,
And "....the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord...", v14.
--
If they were SEEN as the word of God, in the time of Zech,
Then these spirits were "present" at that time.
What was the "word of God" to Zerubbabel?
Zech 4:6-10.
The "word of God" to Zerubbabel is still with us today in the OT.
The 2 spirits still speak to us.
It is itself (this scripture), now witnessing in Jerusalem through the people there.
The words of God speak now in Jerusalem.
The spirits (people of Israel, flesh) that witness of Jesus ( through the OT), still speak as they have for thousands of years.
Those 2 witnesses, the Law and the Prophets, still speak to us, and the world today.
They are saying that Jesus is our Savior.
So, they don't read the Law of Moses any more in Israel?
They don't read the Prophets anymore?
These are "non-existent" in Israel?
Do you really believe that?
I agree in a general sense.
I pray that we all make it by God's grace, to that Holy City, Heavenly Jerusalem.
But that is what this is saying, that we are looking for the heavenly Jerusalem with Jesus.
It doesn't seem to be referring to the dest in 70 ad.
Rome.
Maccabees, John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul?, the apostles, countless others, destroyed Jerusalem.
Rome, The 4th beast of Dan. 7, the iron legs of Dan.2, is the woman of R ch 17.
The sea beast, earth beast, and the Antichrist are all Rome.
Yes, Jerusalem in that passage is called those, but not Babylon.
In R ch 11, there is no reference to any woman or Babylon.
To try to associate these together without scriptural support would be an assumption.
The title of the woman in R ch 17, Babylon,
Traces her origin back to the tower of Babel, where men first fell away from Jehovah worship after the cleansing flood.
She is worship the creation, not the creator.
At the time of the Roman Empire, Caesar worship was "the thing".
The great harlot and Caesar worship is still with us today,
The RCC, that is, the Bishop of Rome (Caesar) is the Holy Father (god).
It tells us who they are ,
R 11:4, "These are the two olive trees,and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
The parallel passage in Zech 4:1-14, tells us that these 2 olive trees are "the word of the Lord", v 6,
And "....the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord...", v14.
--
If they were SEEN as the word of God, in the time of Zech,
Then these spirits were "present" at that time.
What was the "word of God" to Zerubbabel?
Zech 4:6-10.
The "word of God" to Zerubbabel is still with us today in the OT.
The 2 spirits still speak to us.
It is itself (this scripture), now witnessing in Jerusalem through the people there.
The words of God speak now in Jerusalem.
The spirits (people of Israel, flesh) that witness of Jesus ( through the OT), still speak as they have for thousands of years.
Those 2 witnesses, the Law and the Prophets, still speak to us, and the world today.
They are saying that Jesus is our Savior.
So, they don't read the Law of Moses any more in Israel?
They don't read the Prophets anymore?
These are "non-existent" in Israel?
Do you really believe that?
The promise of restoration to the land was fulfilled when they were brought out of, went out of Babylon.
it's all well documented.
they got there in time for the arrival of THE PROMISE, Jesus.
that's how we have the first hand accounts
it's all well documented.
they got there in time for the arrival of THE PROMISE, Jesus.
that's how we have the first hand accounts
I agree in a general sense.
I pray that we all make it by God's grace, to that Holy City, Heavenly Jerusalem.
But that is what this is saying, that we are looking for the heavenly Jerusalem with Jesus.
It doesn't seem to be referring to the dest in 70 ad.
Rome.
Maccabees, John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul?, the apostles, countless others, destroyed Jerusalem.
Rome, The 4th beast of Dan. 7, the iron legs of Dan.2, is the woman of R ch 17.
The sea beast, earth beast, and the Antichrist are all Rome.
Yes, Jerusalem in that passage is called those, but not Babylon.
In R ch 11, there is no reference to any woman or Babylon.
To try to associate these together without scriptural support would be an assumption.
The title of the woman in R ch 17, Babylon,
Traces her origin back to the tower of Babel, where men first fell away from Jehovah worship after the cleansing flood.
She is worship the creation, not the creator.
At the time of the Roman Empire, Caesar worship was "the thing".
The great harlot and Caesar worship is still with us today,
The RCC, that is, the Bishop of Rome (Caesar) is the Holy Father (god).