what has been fulfilled?
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It's hard to put down a good argument, huh?
Brother Plainword,
I agree that the modern day Islamic nations will attack and conquer Jerusalem.
But the AoD, the trib, and the destruction of Jerusalem as told in the gospels have already taken place.
There won't be another Times of the Gentiles, where Israel is restored after that time period is over.
This time when Jerusalem is conquered, few if any Israelites will be left in Jerusalem alive, they will all be killed and lie in the streets, (7th Trumpet).
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You have the vision to see what is coming,
But it is the wrong time frame, we are at the last scene on this planet in R 20.
These forces (Islam) at this present time are Magog and the Kings of the East.
They will surround and conquer Jerusalem, and then the fire from heaven,
the stone of Dan. 2.
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The only thing Rome does is speak the words that deceive the Kings of the East. R 16.
Dear Brother abcdef,
I understand your position. I think you are wrong, but I respect your view.
However, if I were to accept your view than Israel will not be destroyed next time. Once they are surrounded and appear headed for wipe-out, God intervenes and melts the ISLAMIC hordes in the places.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
this would seem to align with this:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
But then Zone believes this melting of the enemy forces occurred when Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD.
I understand your position. I think you are wrong, but I respect your view.
However, if I were to accept your view than Israel will not be destroyed next time. Once they are surrounded and appear headed for wipe-out, God intervenes and melts the ISLAMIC hordes in the places.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
this would seem to align with this:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
But then Zone believes this melting of the enemy forces occurred when Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD.
The reality of the threat to Jerusalem will soon be realized as time passes.
Russia, Syria, Iraq, etc, will all attack and support Iran's army.
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The bitter/sweet scroll of the 2 witnesses,
tells us that Israel (2 witnesses) will be killed when they are restored to Jerusalem.
The resurrection takes place after the 2 witnesses are killed.
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Many think as you do,
That Jesus will return to this planet and save Israel.
But this is not to be.
The 2 witnesses are killed before the resurrection.
Jesus destroys this planet because His people are destroyed,
If the world were allowed to continue,
Israel would blend into the gentile nations and cease to be a unique, genetic race.
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This 1000 year reign idea stems from Jewish tradition which is now found in the Talmud. It was the current thought in Jesus'
day and believed by his disciples and most of the Jewish population. That is the main reason why Christ was rejected as Messiah because he didnt appear as the conqueror of Rome. He said his Kingdom was not of this world. He will not be sitting on a literal throne in Jerusalem because he was enthroned in Heaven. God promised David that there would always be one of his descendants ruling Israel. This did not happen here on earth. The only place it has happened is in Heaven. David prophesied it himself.
day and believed by his disciples and most of the Jewish population. That is the main reason why Christ was rejected as Messiah because he didnt appear as the conqueror of Rome. He said his Kingdom was not of this world. He will not be sitting on a literal throne in Jerusalem because he was enthroned in Heaven. God promised David that there would always be one of his descendants ruling Israel. This did not happen here on earth. The only place it has happened is in Heaven. David prophesied it himself.
Forgive me tanakh, but what you have said is not according to scripture. The scripture is clear in that, Jesus will literally return to the earth to end the age and establish his kingdom. He himself will be ruling from Jerusalem on the throne of David, in fulfillment of the prophecy. Regarding Christ's millennial kingdom, we have the following:
"While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
Nebuchadnezzar's statue = represents all human government
The Rock = The Lord Jesus
The Rock falling on the feet of the statue and blown away by the wind without leaving a trace = Jesus dismantling the governments of the world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the result being the end of all human government
The Rock becoming a huge mountain and filling the whole earth = Christ's millennial kingdom on earth
When Jesus said, "my kingdom is not of this earth" he meant at that time. For his appearing in the flesh the first time was not to rule the world, but to meet the righteous requirements of the law, fulfilling them and to pay the penalty for our sins by the shedding of his blood. After that He rose on the third day and then returned to the Father. When he returns to the earth to end the age, His kingdom will be of this world during that thousand years. After that will be the new heaven, new earth and the new Jerusalem.
"While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
Nebuchadnezzar's statue = represents all human government
The Rock = The Lord Jesus
The Rock falling on the feet of the statue and blown away by the wind without leaving a trace = Jesus dismantling the governments of the world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the result being the end of all human government
The Rock becoming a huge mountain and filling the whole earth = Christ's millennial kingdom on earth
When Jesus said, "my kingdom is not of this earth" he meant at that time. For his appearing in the flesh the first time was not to rule the world, but to meet the righteous requirements of the law, fulfilling them and to pay the penalty for our sins by the shedding of his blood. After that He rose on the third day and then returned to the Father. When he returns to the earth to end the age, His kingdom will be of this world during that thousand years. After that will be the new heaven, new earth and the new Jerusalem.
The concept of a Millennium period of a literal one thousand years brings a major question to mind. If you take Revelation in Chronological order and in accordance with the futurist interpretation of it it means that Christ will need to do a vast repair job on the earth to reverse all the damage done during the tribulation putting all the worlds cities back together including Jerusalem. clearing the blood from the seas changing the biology of animals and generally not just getting the earth back to how it was but making it better than it was before. Having done all this after the Millennium there is another rebellion and then a New heaven and Earth is again put together. An alternative interrpretation is that Christ returns and
as Peter states the Earth is destroyed by fire and replaced by a new heaven and Earth complete with new Jerusalem
as Peter states the Earth is destroyed by fire and replaced by a new heaven and Earth complete with new Jerusalem
Actually this is my view. I argue that Mat 24 is not fulfilled after verse 2. I argue all of it is future as the Abomination of Desolation was never set up at the Fortress of the Sanctuary (the Western Wall where Jews pray). I argue that everything foretold by Jesus is seen by the last generation. I argue that the GT of Israel starts when the A of D is set up and lasts < 45 days as told in Dan 12:11. I argue that many Jews scatter one last time before the invasion begins then are gathered back by Christ when He returns after the GT of Israel.
I argue that the 2 witnesses are 1) Israel and 2) the Church. Both stand before God as witnesses to Him. Both have power to convict the World that they are in sin and need to be saved. Both are hated by all nations. Both are under attack by the spirits of Sodom and Egypt which will overcome them and defeat them. This is the "falling away" of 2 Thes 2.
He returns and saves the remnant of Israel. There is always a remnant.
He doesn't destroy the planet as in the earth is totally destroyed. We have several passages which disprove that.
Psalm 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.
Psalm 104:5
You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever,
Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.
I think when people read 2 Peter 3, and see this, that they wrongly apply it to the planet, rather than its people - the earth.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
The heavens pass away and the people and their works are burned up. You see there is no need for the heavenly lights, the sun and moon because God is light. There is no more day or night. Thus the heavens (stars) will be destroyed. They are no longer needed for signs either.
Genesis 1:14
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
You see, they won't be needed anymore.
I argue that the 2 witnesses are 1) Israel and 2) the Church. Both stand before God as witnesses to Him. Both have power to convict the World that they are in sin and need to be saved. Both are hated by all nations. Both are under attack by the spirits of Sodom and Egypt which will overcome them and defeat them. This is the "falling away" of 2 Thes 2.
He returns and saves the remnant of Israel. There is always a remnant.
He doesn't destroy the planet as in the earth is totally destroyed. We have several passages which disprove that.
Psalm 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.
Psalm 104:5
You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever,
Ecclesiastes 1:4
One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.
I think when people read 2 Peter 3, and see this, that they wrongly apply it to the planet, rather than its people - the earth.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
The heavens pass away and the people and their works are burned up. You see there is no need for the heavenly lights, the sun and moon because God is light. There is no more day or night. Thus the heavens (stars) will be destroyed. They are no longer needed for signs either.
Genesis 1:14
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
You see, they won't be needed anymore.
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This wrong.........Because most of the Jews in 32AD through today do not believe that Jesus Christ is their Messiah, those who do not become Christians and believe in Jesus are condemned to go through seven year tribulations where 2/3 of them will die because of non-belief. The other 1/3 will help populate the world during the 1000 years of peace.
Judaism is simply a false way for the Rabbis to proclaim "The Laws" by word of mouth. Since the Law went away with Jesus, they who do not believe DO NOT have a way to relieve their sins according to the laws of animal sacrifice. Thus we have the present system. of Judaism.
The fourth beast of Dan 7 is widely considered to be Rome by all scholars. I tend to agree but would not rule out it being the Ottoman Empire which was far more terrible than Rome. However, that does not mean the Beast of Rev 13 that John saw was also Rome. John saw a different Beast, one that had 7 heads and 10 horns. Please note that Daniel's 4th beast had 10 horns but not 7 heads. Please note also that it wasn't the fourth beast that is in play at the end, but rather its ten horns.
Daniel 7:24
The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.
These 10 horns are leaders and they arise from the fourth beast. These 10 horns wage war against and destroy the Harlot they are supposed to be carrying/supporting. I believe them to be terror groups who are here now and are in the process of destroying their religion - Islam, turning it into a killing religion and not the peaceful religion many falsely want to tie to her.
Right now there are 9 major terror groups. We need one more.
John's beast is a 4,000 year old beast, each head representing a past empire. His beast has been present throughout history starting with Egypt. The religions have changed slightly but they all have roots going back to Egypt with the same moon and star symbols.
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This post is loaded with problems. Many tens of thousands of Jews believed in Jesus during His day, 3,000 more came to Christ at Pentecost. Jews of today are not going to be punished for the sins of the unbelieving Jews of Christ's day. The unbelieving Jews of Christ's day were given 40 years or so to come to realization that they killed their Messiah. As a nation, when they didn't, God used Rome to carry out His punishment, by forever destroying their temple and sending them off to 1900 years of ceasing to be a nation.
As for the Great Tribulation of Israel, many think they suffered it back in 70 AD. I believe it is still future. But it doesn't last 7 years and no passage tells us it does. I know you think Dan 9:27 gives us the 7 years but you will not find the term "great tribulation" in that passage, nor will you find any 2,000+ year gap. However, if you look at Dan 12:11 you see that it lasts just 45 days 1,335-1,290. Even those days are cut short. A full out invasion of Israel could never last years. The place is the size of New Jersey. There isn't enough land mass or Jewish troops to hold out that long against tens of millions of Muslim invaders. The 6 day war lasted how long?
Lastly, there is no 1,000 earthly millennial reign taught. This idea comes from (and only from) Rev 20:4-6. There it is clear that Christ is reigning with souls and not resurrected beings on earth. This reign is happening now and has been a long time. We know from Peter that "time" doesn't exist in heaven anyway. Time is a man-made dimension based on the rotation of the earth and its orbit around the sun. Those factors do not exist in heaven. Therefore time given in heaven, whether it's "1,000 years" or "about half an hour" have absolutely no relation to time on earth.
Happy Thanksgiving my dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ!! I love you all and may God keep us safe who are traveling.
As for the Great Tribulation of Israel, many think they suffered it back in 70 AD. I believe it is still future. But it doesn't last 7 years and no passage tells us it does. I know you think Dan 9:27 gives us the 7 years but you will not find the term "great tribulation" in that passage, nor will you find any 2,000+ year gap. However, if you look at Dan 12:11 you see that it lasts just 45 days 1,335-1,290. Even those days are cut short. A full out invasion of Israel could never last years. The place is the size of New Jersey. There isn't enough land mass or Jewish troops to hold out that long against tens of millions of Muslim invaders. The 6 day war lasted how long?
Lastly, there is no 1,000 earthly millennial reign taught. This idea comes from (and only from) Rev 20:4-6. There it is clear that Christ is reigning with souls and not resurrected beings on earth. This reign is happening now and has been a long time. We know from Peter that "time" doesn't exist in heaven anyway. Time is a man-made dimension based on the rotation of the earth and its orbit around the sun. Those factors do not exist in heaven. Therefore time given in heaven, whether it's "1,000 years" or "about half an hour" have absolutely no relation to time on earth.
Happy Thanksgiving my dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ!! I love you all and may God keep us safe who are traveling.
Yes you are absolutely correct. Good spot. They were destroyed by the Romans
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1556-importance-of-messianic-genealogy-the
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1556-importance-of-messianic-genealogy-the
HUH? Where do I say that? Daniel's 70th week ended right after its 69th week, around AD 33. When Messiah the Prince appeared to John the Baptist, that started week 70. But in the middle of the week, Messiah was cut off at the Cross. So, only 69.5 weeks happened.
Remember what the purpose of those 70 weeks (490 years) were. Those weeks or years were determined for the Jewish people to accomplish the list of things found in Dan 9:24. They accomplished EVERYTHING on that list. There is no gap taught and nothing left on that list for them to do. For instance, the list does not say anything about them needing to go through a Great Tribulation. This idea is a total man-made fabrication.
Remember what the purpose of those 70 weeks (490 years) were. Those weeks or years were determined for the Jewish people to accomplish the list of things found in Dan 9:24. They accomplished EVERYTHING on that list. There is no gap taught and nothing left on that list for them to do. For instance, the list does not say anything about them needing to go through a Great Tribulation. This idea is a total man-made fabrication.