The King James Only Debate
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Let us put their perfection to the test:
2S 10:18
And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew seven hundred chariots of
the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host,
who died there.
1 Chr 19:18
But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousandchariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain
of the host.
Ups, KJV failed the test of perfect preservation again
2S 10:18
And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew seven hundred chariots of
the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host,
who died there.
1 Chr 19:18
But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousandchariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain
of the host.
Ups, KJV failed the test of perfect preservation again
these two posts, working together, present some clear facts.
I saw only one attempt to deal with them, and it borders on the absurd.
so with all gentleness, this leads me to believe that kjv only folks are not interested in facts, but rather in clinging to a story.
I can certainly understand that, I've done my share of story-clinging myself over the years.
We need to understand that when the Bible uses the term "horsemen" in I Samuel 10:18, this term is not necessarily to be understood in the same sense that we think of it, as armed, mounted cavalry. Horses, to the extent that they found military application, were used to drive chariots, and to carry men into battle, men who would then dismount and fight on foot. The horses were used as quick and mobile transportation, but not as battle platforms, at least in the time period when II Samuel was written. Thus, when the Bible at this point refers to "horsemen" in this army that David defeated, it is quite likely referring to men who were carried to the battle on horseback, and who then dismounted and fought on foot. Always allow the Bible to define itself and never use man's way of defining.
Once again, the KJV is innocent to the true Bible student. To the skeptic, the Lord will blind their eyes from the truth.
Once again, the KJV is innocent to the true Bible student. To the skeptic, the Lord will blind their eyes from the truth.
For those who believe God's word is pure it was 42 thousand footmen along with 42 thousand horsemen. For those who don't think God's word is pure, it just proves that God's word can't be trusted 100%.
Footmen is found exactly 12 times in the KJV. If 1 Chronicles 19 would have been retold in exactly the same way 2 Samuel 10 told the story, then footmen would have been found 11 times.
Think about how "footmen" in a war related to the 12 disciples in the New Testament.
Footmen is found exactly 12 times in the KJV. If 1 Chronicles 19 would have been retold in exactly the same way 2 Samuel 10 told the story, then footmen would have been found 11 times.
Think about how "footmen" in a war related to the 12 disciples in the New Testament.
Really?
David's men slew the men of seven hundred chariots, how many men were in each chariot?
2 Samuel 10:18 KJV
And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there.
2 Samuel 10 - David slew the men of 700 chariots.
1 Chronicles 19 - David slew 7000 men which fought in chariots.
Dan can't you see that the 2 accounts are telling the exact same story from different view points.
2 Samuel gives the account of how many chariots were involved.
1 Chronicles gives the account of how many men were involved.
The two stories complement one another and adds information the overall story? How is this used to "prove" the KJV is wrong?
1 Chronicles 19 - David slew 7000 men which fought in chariots.
Dan can't you see that the 2 accounts are telling the exact same story from different view points.
2 Samuel gives the account of how many chariots were involved.
1 Chronicles gives the account of how many men were involved.
The two stories complement one another and adds information the overall story? How is this used to "prove" the KJV is wrong?
Sure, let's engage in something lower than sound logical reasoning, and simply broadbrush those who disagree with our position as "skeptics". John, that is both an ad-hominem attack and a strawman attack. Both are unacceptable and invalid.
You still have not addressed the difference in the names of the captain of the host. Get some integrity and stop insulting people.
You're dragging in the assumption that the KJV is perfect. As I have clearly explained, any assertion of perfection which uses as one of its supporting arguments the assumption of perfection is not logically valid. That's called circular reasoning, and it is both common among KJV-only proponents and unacceptable in debate. It has no value.
Precisely eleven of the original disciples were found faithful. Number patterns which "almost" work don't work.
You still have not addressed the difference in the names of the captain of the host. Get some integrity and stop insulting people.
You're dragging in the assumption that the KJV is perfect. As I have clearly explained, any assertion of perfection which uses as one of its supporting arguments the assumption of perfection is not logically valid. That's called circular reasoning, and it is both common among KJV-only proponents and unacceptable in debate. It has no value.
Precisely eleven of the original disciples were found faithful. Number patterns which "almost" work don't work.
I don't believe that I drag in the assumption that the KJV is perfect, I've found it to be perfect through experience. Just like in the debate over these two verses, it is presented that the 2 accounts contradict one another but the opposite is true. They don't contradict, they compliment each other.
"Almost don't work" - It's not almost, it's exact. The unfaithful disciple was replaced with a faithful one, there were 12 faithful disciples.
I know the following wan't addressed to me but I have a comment on it.
There are 2 captains of the host, the physical man and the spiritual wickedness in high places BEHIND the physical man. I haven't looked into this story to see if the two captians are referring to the physical and spiritual or whether it's just another instance where the KJV translators changed the name so that the number occurences would match.
That has caught my attention though and I will look into it.... very interesting.
"Almost don't work" - It's not almost, it's exact. The unfaithful disciple was replaced with a faithful one, there were 12 faithful disciples.
I know the following wan't addressed to me but I have a comment on it.
There are 2 captains of the host, the physical man and the spiritual wickedness in high places BEHIND the physical man. I haven't looked into this story to see if the two captians are referring to the physical and spiritual or whether it's just another instance where the KJV translators changed the name so that the number occurences would match.
That has caught my attention though and I will look into it.... very interesting.
I was on their side for many years and I can only speak for myself.... I believed the KJV was wrong because people told me it was wrong. When I started really looking into it for myself I began to see ALL the errors disappear. Until someone comes to this debate with open hearts and open minds, nobodies mind will be changed no matter how much evidence is pesented. And another issue on this forum is people HALF READ most the opposing arguments.
In all the errors presented in this thread NONE of them have been true errors.... if they were true I would shut my mouth about the KJV lol.
In all the errors presented in this thread NONE of them have been true errors.... if they were true I would shut my mouth about the KJV lol.
... which still doesn't match your alleged number pattern. If, as you assert, there were 12 faithful disciples AND the number of instances of "footmen" is 12 in the OT in a directly-related pattern, how does the "pattern" represent the failure of the one disciple and replacement by another? That looks like grasping at straws to me.
As to "perfection", your argument is still based on your view that the KJV is perfect. Once again, you cannot base the support for an assertion on that very assertion. You can research and investigate from that assertion but not argue for it while using it. It's a logical fallacy, a flaw of reasoning.
I respect your statement that you will look into it.
As to there being two captains, that is rather weak, and I don't consider it a sufficient explanation. It is speculative, and you don't provide any evidence to support it. Regarding the idea that one is the spiritual force behind the man, that is debunked by the fact that both perished. One David "slew", and the other, David "smote, and he died". It would be the only case of a human causing the death of a spiritual entity, and again, without additional evidence, it is simply speculation.
So, unless there is other scriptural evidence that there were, in fact, two different men with very similar names who were each considered the (specific article) captain of the host at the same time, I will continue to consider this an error in the KJV.
To John146: You have made the assertion repeatedly that the KJV is perfect. I have neither need nor desire to prove that it is not perfect; I simply don't accept that it is. It is your responsibility to prove your assertion in the face of every challenge. The challenges made in no way constitute an attempt "to prove God's word has errors". Rather, they are challenges to your assertion.
You, John146, continue to accuse others of holding the antithesis of your own beliefs. You continue to characterize as "skeptics" those who don't accept your view of the KJV. You continue to equate "God's word" exclusively with the KJV and insult those who see things differently. You continue to use emotive rhetoric and not sound argumentation. You continue to ignore correction and use debunked arguments. I'm beginning to think you neither possess nor understand intellectual integrity, and therefore further discussion with you is a waste of time. In this matter I sincerely hope you step up and prove otherwise.
As to "perfection", your argument is still based on your view that the KJV is perfect. Once again, you cannot base the support for an assertion on that very assertion. You can research and investigate from that assertion but not argue for it while using it. It's a logical fallacy, a flaw of reasoning.
I respect your statement that you will look into it.
As to there being two captains, that is rather weak, and I don't consider it a sufficient explanation. It is speculative, and you don't provide any evidence to support it. Regarding the idea that one is the spiritual force behind the man, that is debunked by the fact that both perished. One David "slew", and the other, David "smote, and he died". It would be the only case of a human causing the death of a spiritual entity, and again, without additional evidence, it is simply speculation.
So, unless there is other scriptural evidence that there were, in fact, two different men with very similar names who were each considered the (specific article) captain of the host at the same time, I will continue to consider this an error in the KJV.
To John146: You have made the assertion repeatedly that the KJV is perfect. I have neither need nor desire to prove that it is not perfect; I simply don't accept that it is. It is your responsibility to prove your assertion in the face of every challenge. The challenges made in no way constitute an attempt "to prove God's word has errors". Rather, they are challenges to your assertion.
You, John146, continue to accuse others of holding the antithesis of your own beliefs. You continue to characterize as "skeptics" those who don't accept your view of the KJV. You continue to equate "God's word" exclusively with the KJV and insult those who see things differently. You continue to use emotive rhetoric and not sound argumentation. You continue to ignore correction and use debunked arguments. I'm beginning to think you neither possess nor understand intellectual integrity, and therefore further discussion with you is a waste of time. In this matter I sincerely hope you step up and prove otherwise.
Its hard to show something to somebody who does not want to see it. He will always invent some "explanation", mostly "both are true, horsemen, footmen, both captains with different letter in names were there... etc".
Normally thinking people see how weak and illogical this is, but when somebody really believes something is perfect, he cant see the opposite.
When one place will say "white" and the second place "black", for them, both will be truth. So they always incorporate every error in the KJV to be some kind of "spiritual truth".
As Dino said, its circular. KJV is perfect, because there are no errors in it. And no error showed is an error, because it cant be, we must "explain" it somehow. Because KJV is without error.
Normally thinking people see how weak and illogical this is, but when somebody really believes something is perfect, he cant see the opposite.
When one place will say "white" and the second place "black", for them, both will be truth. So they always incorporate every error in the KJV to be some kind of "spiritual truth".
As Dino said, its circular. KJV is perfect, because there are no errors in it. And no error showed is an error, because it cant be, we must "explain" it somehow. Because KJV is without error.
I ignore correction from a Bible corrector? No thanks. Any so called "correction" has all been debunked.
Do you believe we have the perfect, complete words of God without error available to us today? Do you have a Bible you completely trust from the first word in Genesis to the last word in Revelation?
Do you believe we have the perfect, complete words of God without error available to us today? Do you have a Bible you completely trust from the first word in Genesis to the last word in Revelation?