Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

[trofimus]

i believe, God wants me to be healthy, and to have my needs met and that is my right as a son of the most high.

i think this is accomplished by in in both the spiritual and natural. i believe it is my responsibility to take care of this body God gave me, to help it stay healthy, i believe all healing is of God, and without His word we wouldn't even have modern medicine, i believe when i get a cut, and watch it heal over a week or two that is a miracle in its self. i believe not healing can happen without God, i believe i can ask for His supernatural add in the healing possess, and i do believe in the corporate faith setting of supernatural healing in line with the Gospel and the book of acts, the gift of healing, i have seen it. thats what i believe.

Yes, you believe.

But this thread is about biblical support. I have given you several that prove that God does not want Christians to be rich and sometimes He does not heal and Christians are weak or die. That healing is His extraordinary mercy, not our right given to everybody.

Show your proofs from the Bible and/or give a good response to mine ones.

 

[garee]

Yes, which means i believe in healing, just like most Christians, but not the GIFT of healing.

I do not believe healing is guarenteed or promised to us here and now. To think you can quote "get your healing today" or claim your healing now is rubbish and a quick gimmick that distracts from the gospel and puts emphasis on the eternal miracles rather than the internal miracle of salvation.

I would agree, distracts is what it does.

Now that the perfect has come (no new revelations) and we are not to anticipate anymore revelations. It would eliminate any outward signs and wonders as a healing done for a specific purpose.

All healing in a sense is a miracle. Miracles are simply miracles no more and no less. God is no less. But the ones that are shown throughout the bible have a special purpose put aside for God as part of the gospel .God used physical healing as a parable in respect the gospel .

There are no outwards signs that follow the believer today. Some like those of the Pentecostal sect as sign seekers try to duplicate the experience Paul had on the island Melita when he was bitten by a poisonous snake and was miraculous healed as a “sign to the unbelievers”(prophecy for those who believe God).that healing with Paul was just like being raised from the dead.

The poison in the parable or any parable represents the false doctrines of men. When a person who has the Spirit of Christ is challenged by the false gospel it will not affect their faith they simply will not believe the false prophet. Attempting to drink poison today indicates a person is under the judgment of God and have a need to and turn to God and repent. .

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:16

Jesus used physical healing to resentment the spiritual. When asked of John in prison if Jesus was the Messiah. When John heard he was speaking of spiritual matters using the things seen to represent the temporal he was given the faith to understood the eternal not seen, it was gospel being preached .He believed God.

Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

All of those mentioned in Mathew are terms used to represent the gospel. As the physical blind receive their sight it points to our spiritual eyes of our heart opened by the hearing of faith, The lame represent those who cannot walk by faith, as in natural man, the lepers again are used to represent the dead with no sensitively to the gospel, those who do not have ears to hear the spirit are healed of that showing the work of the gospel, the dead are raised to show the power of Christ’s resurrection. .And the poor in spirit are shown as those who the gospel is preached to . All those signs represent the work of the gospel.

God is no longer bringing any new revelation to indicate the gospel being preached. The need of a sign for those who rebel is no longer possible. Christ says it’s an evil generation (the generation of man or Adam) that seeks after one .None has been given for over two thousand years .Yet the rebellious still seek after one even today.

 

[wanderer6059]

Yes, you believe.

But this thread is about biblical support. I have given you several that prove that God does not want Christians to be rich and sometimes He does not heal and Christians are weak or die. That healing is His extraordinary mercy, not our right given to everybody.

Show your proofs from the Bible and/or give a good response to mine ones.

i gave you verse's, i gave you what i believe. sorry i guess i'm not seeing it but i never said we are to be rich, and thats not what i was taught.... and i really thing you should slowly read my last post to you again on healing and tell me, what is it that i believe that is un biblical...

 

[wanderer6059]

I would agree, distracts is what it does.

Now that the perfect has come (no new revelations) and we are not to anticipate anymore revelations. It would eliminate any outward signs and wonders as a healing done for a specific purpose.

All healing in a sense is a miracle. Miracles are simply miracles no more and no less. God is no less. But the ones that are shown throughout the bible have a special purpose put aside for God as part of the gospel .God used physical healing as a parable in respect the gospel .

There are no outwards signs that follow the believer today. Some like those of the Pentecostal sect as sign seekers try to duplicate the experience Paul had on the island Melita when he was bitten by a poisonous snake and was miraculous healed as a “sign to the unbelievers”(prophecy for those who believe God).that healing with Paul was just like being raised from the dead.

The poison in the parable or any parable represents the false doctrines of men. When a person who has the Spirit of Christ is challenged by the false gospel it will not affect their faith they simply will not believe the false prophet. Attempting to drink poison today indicates a person is under the judgment of God and have a need to and turn to God and repent. .

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:16

Jesus used physical healing to resentment the spiritual. When asked of John in prison if Jesus was the Messiah. When John heard he was speaking of spiritual matters using the things seen to represent the temporal he was given the faith to understood the eternal not seen, it was gospel being preached .He believed God.

Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

All of those mentioned in Mathew are terms used to represent the gospel. As the physical blind receive their sight it points to our spiritual eyes of our heart opened by the hearing of faith, The lame represent those who cannot walk by faith, as in natural man, the lepers again are used to represent the dead with no sensitively to the gospel, those who do not have ears to hear the spirit are healed of that showing the work of the gospel, the dead are raised to show the power of Christ’s resurrection. .And the poor in spirit are shown as those who the gospel is preached to . All those signs represent the work of the gospel.

God is no longer bringing any new revelation to indicate the gospel being preached. The need of a sign for those who rebel is no longer possible. Christ says it’s an evil generation (the generation of man or Adam) that seeks after one .None has been given for over two thousand years .Yet the rebellious still seek after one even today.

i believe everything about healing you do i guess except that the gift is still in effect for the same reason it was given. and i can pray for in faith for God in my natural healing. and truly you have no scriptural evidence that the gifts stop, no where in the bible does it say that they will stop till Christ comes.

 

[popeye]

Yes, you believe.

But this thread is about biblical support. I have given you several that prove that God does not want Christians to be rich and sometimes He does not heal and Christians are weak or die. That healing is His extraordinary mercy, not our right given to everybody.

Show your proofs from the Bible and/or give a good response to mine ones.

your error is in broad brushing a multifaceted bible into a one dimensional mental book.

Watch this,I will modify your post;
"But this thread is about biblical support. I have given you several that prove that God wants Christians to be rich(good measure,pressed down,shaken together,and running over,SHALL MEN GIVE UNTO YOUR BOSOM) and He does heal and Christians enjoy supernatural health. That healing is His extraordinary mercy, and who are we,whom he gave the power,anointing and Holy Spirit to,to hold it back,or rudely tell him we selfishly reject what he breathed into the churc,his people?"

Show your proofs from the Bible and/or give a good response to mine ones

 

[popeye]

Dear ccessationist,

What do you do,when a loved one is in trouble?

Sick?

Injured?

Do you pray?

How then do you activate an ounce of faith,not knowing if the bible is true?

(you automatically default into "well I know several not healed,so God is obviously powerless in this mental walk of mine")

 

[popeye]

Dear God,may I never be stricken with such insulting unbelief and insults to the King.

You are the same Jesus. You are power,you are the serpent on the rod that healed EVERY ONE THAT LOOKED UPON IT,you took not those stripes in vain.Your promise to us is the same,"RECEIVE YE THE HOLY SPIRIT"

"..and after that,they laid hands on them and they were baptized with the HOLY GHOST."

What on earth is going on in the mind of the cessationist,to seek less power,less anointing,less miracles from heaven,??????

To reject the anointing PROMISED?????

The power FREELY GIVEN????

 

[stonesoffire]

If He is a King....and we are Sons and daughters of the King, should we not expect to receive the benefits of living in the Kingdom now? He says ask, believing we receive. That's now not when we are in heaven.

 

[bluto]

Yes, you believe.

But this thread is about biblical support. I have given you several that prove that God does not want Christians to be rich and sometimes He does not heal and Christians are weak or die. That healing is His extraordinary mercy, not our right given to everybody.

Show your proofs from the Bible and/or give a good response to mine ones.

When you said trofimus the following blanket statement, "I have given you several that prove that God does not want Christians to be rich." your not understanding God. God is not against people getting rich or may be rich from their parents or even from an inheritance and other avenues. What God is against is those people who make it their aim to "pursue" riches" as in "the loving of money is the root of all evil."

There are many many people who are rich that are Godly people who give back and not giving it back for the sake of gain.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[LaurenTM]

So God is okay with people getting healed through doctors, but not through prayer?

If this is true today, why does Scripture say the prayer of faith WILL heal the sick?

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Notice James doesn't say prayer will save the one who is sick, but prayer of faith. What's the difference?

It seems people celebrate healing, but not supernatural healing. Yet, they celebrate Jesus supernaturally healing people. It's quite confusing to me.

My question is simple: does Scripture indicate that faith is needed to receive from God?

no one said God is okay with anyone getting sick..or even dying!

no one said God is okay with people going to and receiving aid from doctors and is not okay with prayer

in fact, we read the following in James:

Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 5:14

the op has asked for prayer quite a few times, so maybe quit trying to shove the truth aside with all knowing smar a** remarks and pay attention

It seems people celebrate healing, but not supernatural healing. Yet, they celebrate Jesus supernaturally healing people.

really?

which people please? this is a unsubstantiated remark of the variety best described as a knee jerk reaction...frankly..I don't celebrate healing at all...I celebrate the One who heals and when I look around, I see SUPERNATURAL everywhere..atoms in constant motion...nothing is actually solid!

LOOK:

for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Acts 17:28

we are held together supernaturally

God is not a mix of components the way some describe Him...you know...a healer or deliver or shield and so many others...He is ALL things at once...that is a concept that is often overlooked in the rush to emphasize one thing over another

you cannot prove anything you say is God without having faith to begin with and that goes for everyone

so this entire emphasis on healing is childish..WOF is childish

God IS...

My question is simple: does Scripture indicate that faith is needed to receive from God?

here is a better question to ask

where does faith come from? the Bible indicates that God gives faith...the Bible also indicates that those who come to Him must ask in faith, nothing wavering...but we know we all waver from time to time

as someone said to Jesus once...Lord I believe...help me to believe (colloquial version)

 

[LaurenTM]

To be honest Angela your OP is not Bible, it's a ton of opinion and theory as well.

I like you Cee

but this is just plain ... well, this is the BDF so whatever....

 

[LaurenTM]

Opinion and theory is always slipped in when we decide to "look at context". It's just the nature of things.

really?

is this your thesis or just your opinion?

how many ways to spell 'ironic'?

we are all blind somewhat to ourselves, but this?

this sets a precedence

 

[trofimus]

When you said trofimus the following blanket statement, "I have given you several that prove that God does not want Christians to be rich." your not understanding God. God is not against people getting rich or may be rich from their parents or even from an inheritance and other avenues. What God is against is those people who make it their aim to "pursue" riches" as in "the loving of money is the root of all evil."

There are many many people who are rich that are Godly people who give back and not giving it back for the sake of gain.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

If you will read the verses I have posted you will find out that there are also other verses about riches that do not fit to your theory.

BTW, its quite hard to be rich without pursuing riches... I do not think that all rich Christians got in without any effort.

 

[trofimus]

your error is in broad brushing a multifaceted bible into a one dimensional mental book.

I am sorry, this is over my head.

 

[trofimus]

i gave you verse's, i gave you what i believe. sorry i guess i'm not seeing it but i never said we are to be rich, and thats not what i was taught.... and i really thing you should slowly read my last post to you again on healing and tell me, what is it that i believe that is un biblical...

Again, you said you want to advocate for the Word of Faith. If you dont believe what the WoF is teaching and advocate only for "your version", it will be a very different debate.

 

[Whassup]

If you will read the verses I have posted you will find out that there are also other verses about riches that do not fit to your theory.

BTW, its quite hard to be rich without pursuing riches... I do not think that all rich Christians got in without any effort.

Yes, and many Christians who seek riches end up making an idol out of their riches, their work, and/or their ministry... become guilty of idolatry and will end up not going to Heaven even though they did lots of good deads.

The love of money is the root of all evil and many Christians today, including some of the TV preachers, are in love with money and it has become their god and they probably don't even know they have left their first love... primarily due to the fact that they are doing good works.

The Word gives some stern warnings agains riches (such as 1 Timothy 6:9, and Proverbs 23:4).

Money is just a tool, and it takes the wisdom of the Lord to not get in to trouble with having more of it than we need.

 

[Angela53510]

Just wondering who you would prefer listening to.

I am not a follower of Hagin by the way.

I'm just reading through the posts, trying to catch up.

My preference is to READ THE BIBLE. I have NEVER listened to internet preachers. I figure if they are on the internet, they are not to believed. (I know there may be a few good internet preachers out there, but why bother?)

I will also confess to reading a lot of books by various authors. I prefer books, because they really need to use the Bible to prove their theology. If they don't, the book goes in the garbage, where it belongs.

The Bible is our standard! Not the internet!

More about this later, after I have read all the posts! (Sorry, I am so far behind. I do have a life outside the internet - not implying other don't, either!)

 

[Angela53510]

i do have a question dealing with the woman with the issue of blood.

Luke 8:43-48King James Version (KJV)

43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

what is the difference in here faith in Christ, and receiving her healing. and our faith?

1. Do you think she would have been healed if she had not touched the hem of Jesus garment? Because that seemed to be a condtion of her healing in this passage. Physically touching Jesus.

2. Is Jesus physically here with us? No - although we do have the Holy Spirit.

Technically, this healing was a direct result of Jesus actual presence on earth. I guess that would be the difference between us and this woman.

 

[Angela53510]

I'm really torn between several things, after reading the rest of this thread.

The most important is:

BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE. BIBLE. BIBLE. BIBLE. BIBLE BIBLE. BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE. BIBLE. BIBLE.

I saw so little Bible posted, or answers to the verses I posted, I can only grieve, that the Word of God is so totally ignored, that internet preachers are quoted, but not the Bible, and opinions are posted against Bible verses.

Then there is:

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT

I saw almost no verses posted in context. I saw not one attempt to address the context I added. I saw lists of Scriptures that could have easily been found on any Bible search site, by entering "heal" and "healing." Then eliminating the verses where someone was not healed, who obeyed God and served him (Thinking of my buddy Job, for the first 40 some verses in Job)

I posted context, and people said it was "opinion." Why? Because the Bible proved them wrong? Then there was the person, when I carefully did the exegetics and context and they did not reply to what I said, or show me why I was wrong in the Bible, but called me "arrogant" or words to that effect, because I went through the whole chapter of Mark 11 and showed what it was about?

I know where the Bible stands on healing. God heals. God uses doctors to heal. And sometimes people are not healed. Case closed. But tread on someone's false doctrines, which were debunked using the Bible, and you get called names, or told you are using opinion? How childish.

Then there were all those who never read the OP. Lauren did. She said over and over, my goal was to discuss the WoF using the BIBLE. I wasn't online last night. I went to church this morning. I spent time with my husband today. I come back to find Wanderer posting huge lists of verses pulled out of context, no exegetics to "prove" his erroneous supposed Bible school teachings. Buts least he was posting the Bible, which the other 95% of posts were not. And, he never did answer my OP. I do hope that was because he simply could not. The Bible does not guarantee healing, ever! And it certainly is not something that can be demanded or claimed.

I also spent time today looking at James 5:14-15 in a Greek exegetical commentary. It is definitely a verse about praying for the sick. If anyone had just taken the time to really look at it, they would have found a good verse to support themselves. I am objectiive enough to say that. However, having been prayed for by the elders of my church, but was not healed. (and the exegetical book, by way of Greek grammar, noting that if the person was not healed, and they were not living sinfully (always a possibility!) that it was the fault of the elders if the person prayed for was not healed.)

How many of you WoF people would be willing to pray for me, and if I was not healed, would take responsiblity for me not being healed? By the way, in closing, I am beginning to feel much better. Better meds, but some interesting thoughts today as to why it took so long to get on the 4th med. And none of them had to do with me being healed.

Anyway, God is good. I'm sorry for those caught in this cult. And also sorry for those who did not read the OP, so that Isa. 53 and its relationship to 1 Peter 2:24. I will repost just that part, for those who obviously do not read things that might confront their long held but Biblically wrong doctrines.

This leads me to have a very sour taste in my mouth. I don't care about the insults towards me. I have had lots of those here. I'm a big girl! What boogles me is the utter lack of knowledge, that people who claim to be Christian, display. Jesus must weep over his people. And I am not talking healing or prosperity but just a total lack of knowledge.

 

[Angela53510]

For those with poor reading skills or who intentionally skipped over the OP. I am only addressing this again, because I saw Isa. 53 quoted as proof so many times on this thread. Number 1 - it is horrifically bad hermeneutics to make a Bible verse from only one Scripture. If something is important, God will have it appear over and over again. This only appears here, and is quoted in the NT once each for 2 verses. Once!

So, again Isaiah 53:4-6 from the OP. (I eliminated the Greek, since it might distract or discourage people.)

b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness.

It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.


"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6

While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.

Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV

The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV

This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:

"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."

"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)

The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"

Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)

Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!

"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.

So my point!

Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.

But what did Isaiah himself intend??

The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.

The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.

As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.

Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.