Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

[Billyd]

right there is a fault in your belief.

you BELIEVE it is a thorn to you, you give it place, you give it life with that belief. and for some reason people love assuming Pauls thorn was sickness you can't though. and pas that people love quoting this verse in there sickness but i have one question. What is the devil holding you back from! what mass conversion were you facilitating that the devil had to attack you with a thorn! the devil came against Paul for the reason that the moment he got his revelation his calling in God was that much stronger! that is a LIE of the devil, god loves you brother and He only wants to give you bread not a stone. modern medication is Gods healing, every time a new med is developed that is a victories step to the cure brother! rejoice! and know you will be healed COMPLETELY one day!

I still have my thorn, but God HAS healed me completely. You see. Paul's thorn was a burden to him. It doesn't matter what it was, every time it pricked his heart, it weakened him physically, but in that weakness, Paul's faith became stronger.

My friend, you are 28 years old. As you grow in the wisdom of God's word, providing you take the time to study it, you will understand what the "Lie of the devil" is.

 

[wanderer6059]

Can you give some examples of how WoF has benefited/enhanced/impacted/salvaged your life?

yeah, i was living in sin in a powerless church(random nondenom) not saying there bad too) and was depressed, week, and tired of God as i knew Him, He was just God to me, thats it. nothing personal. Rhema taught me first who my Father was and th real personal relation i could have with Him. I saw that i imparted on the Father the aspects of my earthly fathers, creating a weak view of God. WoF taught me through the Gospels and the character of Jesus who the Father is and How He sees me. and then i learned who I am In Him, and How He loves me. they taught me that God will provide my needs, but i need to also understand what a hard work ethic God wants to instill in me, and that i should be the top employee at my job because i have the Holy Spirit giving me wisdom and the favor of God apon me, they taught me i need to take care of my physical life and body because God want me to treat me like His temple, He wants me to be healthy because i have a calling on my life to spread the Gospel like it was truly given to me. i can tell you till my last breath Wof is not about name it clam it, its more than that.

 

[CharlieGrown]

yeah, i was living in sin in a powerless church(random nondenom) not saying there bad too) and was depressed, week, and tired of God as i knew Him, He was just God to me, thats it. nothing personal. Rhema taught me first who my Father was and th real personal relation i could have with Him. I saw that i imparted on the Father the aspects of my earthly fathers, creating a weak view of God. WoF taught me through the Gospels and the character of Jesus who the Father is and How He sees me. and then i learned who I am In Him, and How He loves me. they taught me that God will provide my needs, but i need to also understand what a hard work ethic God wants to instill in me, and that i should be the top employee at my job because i have the Holy Spirit giving me wisdom and the favor of God apon me, they taught me i need to take care of my physical life and body because God want me to treat me like His temple, He wants me to be healthy because i have a calling on my life to spread the Gospel like it was truly given to me. i can tell you till my last breath Wof is not about name it clam it, its more than that.

You are describing sound biblical teaching, why are you calling this WoF?

 

[wanderer6059]

I still have my thorn, but God HAS healed me completely. You see. Paul's thorn was a burden to him. It doesn't matter what it was, every time it pricked his heart, it weakened him physically, but in that weakness, Paul's faith became stronger.

My friend, you are 28 years old. As you grow in the wisdom of God's word, providing you take the time to study it, you will understand what the "Lie of the devil" is.

i'm going to have to agree to disagree with you brother, i cannot not believe in the God of making the impossible, possible. but in the end we will stand before Him and laugh about things like this, because that day it won't matter any more, that day we will truly be whole.

 

[Angela53510]

So, what is it about WoF that people are so irked by?

I mean, I understand what you're saying. So you and I agree that sickness is not God's will. Does that mean, you and I believe that it is God's will to heal?

What is this hyper religiosity?! Sincere question, because I 'think' I'm classified WoF agreeing to the teachings of JP and I have no idea what is so wrong with it.

Well, off the top of my head, what irks me is that you jump into a thread, and you have not read the OP, let alone the other posts. You start throwing out WoF Disinformation 101 (Thanks Lauren, just loved it!) about how anti WoF/hypergracers are saying that sickness IS God's will.

My suggestion is that you go back and read my posts. I have clearly explained what is wrong with the WoF. I have quite a few posts, with the verses in context, which is another thing that truly irks me about WoF.

People in the WoF just pluck things out of context, and twist them to say things the Bible does not say. They have these amazing new revelations, which are simply not Biblical. They come into a thread like this, which I dedicated to using the BIBLE to talk about WoF and almost no one has posted a single verse, other than a few words out of context, thus proving they are right. When, they are not!

And that includes you, Abby! You have yet to post a single verse in this thread. Go make another thread to talk about opinions, the latest WoF news/revelations.

This post is about the BIBLE.

Even Wanderer promised me he was going to show me how my OP was wrong using the Bible and he seems to have disappeared. Well, whatever!

What irks me is a lie that killed one of my best friends. A lie, that healing was in the atonement, and she did not get medical help and died of cancer. A lie that she just needed to have faith, believe and claim it and her cancer would be completely gone.

What irks me, is the sanctimonious posts by people who judge people with sickness as not being close to God, when the opposite is true for me. Sickness, although not caused by God, certainly made me closer to Christ.

It irks me that people won't read the Bible. (I'm not talking what I have posted here, using context!) I am talking about a mass of Christians, not just WoFers who do not read the Bible. Then, they are susceptible to any false prophet or lying teacher who leads them astray.


"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." 2 Peter 2:1-3

“Woe to you who are full now, for you shall be hungry.“Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.
26 “Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets." Luke 6:25-27

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

Well, enough irks for now. Don't leave, show us from the Bible why your false doctrine is right. I've been waiting for many, many pages, and all I get is some partial verses and raving and no showing the context in the bible to confirm healing is in the atonement.

Of course, as better people than me have shown, healing is NOT IN THE ATONEMENT. Just go back and read my OP. I would love to have someone/anyone show me why what I posted is not true. But that won't happen, because WoF is a terrible lie from the devil, meant to deceive even the elect.

"For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." Matt 24:24

 

[wanderer6059]

You are describing sound biblical teaching, why are you calling this WoF?

because that's what it is, we just like most denominations have some extreme people, add to the fact that you can "make money of that extreme" it our extreme gets pretty well highlighted, while the normal get forgotten.

 

[CharlieGrown]

because that's what it is, we just like most denominations have some extreme people, add to the fact that you can "make money of that extreme" it our extreme gets pretty well highlighted, while the normal get forgotten.

No, that is not what it is. WoF was created by a person who became a Christian Scientist and was passed to the two Kenneth's who turned the doctrine into their financial empires. Even Hagin admitted as much in 2000 with Midas Touch.

 

[BeyondET]

yeah, i was living in sin in a powerless church(random nondenom) not saying there bad too) and was depressed, week, and tired of God as i knew Him, He was just God to me, thats it. nothing personal. Rhema taught me first who my Father was and th real personal relation i could have with Him. I saw that i imparted on the Father the aspects of my earthly fathers, creating a weak view of God. WoF taught me through the Gospels and the character of Jesus who the Father is and How He sees me. and then i learned who I am In Him, and How He loves me. they taught me that God will provide my needs, but i need to also understand what a hard work ethic God wants to instill in me, and that i should be the top employee at my job because i have the Holy Spirit giving me wisdom and the favor of God apon me, they taught me i need to take care of my physical life and body because God want me to treat me like His temple, He wants me to be healthy because i have a calling on my life to spread the Gospel like it was truly given to me. i can tell you till my last breath Wof is not about name it clam it, its more than that.

Good words brother

IMO I like how MLK put it as well...

“If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.”

 

[bluto]

You missing the whole point wanderer! You told billyd the devils holding him back for his lack of faith and that is why he is not healed. You even gave as an example in one of your post at Matthew 8:5-10 that it was the faith of the centurion that healed his own servant.

Let's say your the centurion wanderer why can't your faith heal billyd? Apply your faith to him? Secondly, Jesus Christ also healed people that did not ask Him for healing and other people He healed that had no faith. Read Matthew 14:14. Don't you have compassion of billyd? I don't think so because you blamed the devil for holding him back and blamed him for not having enough faith. So now what are you going to tell me wanderer?

I also take note about how you seem to have the "inside scoop" on what really happened about hagin's death. Who told you this information? Moreover, hagins sister died of cancer, where was her healing? hagins grandson was diagnosed of having a brain tumor and needed surgery immediatley. K. hagin senior wore glasses and so does hagin junior, why wanderer?

They can't even heal their own bad eyesight, why don't you blame them for the devil holding them back and lack of faith? Yet you blame billyd for his lack of faith. What hypocrisy! And remember, I ask you why you have not cleared out some the sick folkd in the hospitals? What's holding you back?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Angela53510]

because that's what it is, we just like most denominations have some extreme people, add to the fact that you can "make money of that extreme" it our extreme gets pretty well highlighted, while the normal get forgotten.

Really not sure what to start here. I thought you had disappeared, but you are back.

Just one question - where is your clever, Biblical rebuttal of my OP?? You said you were going to do it. I am still waiting for it.

I want to see how someone can find healing in the atonement, when it is not there. As for what you did to Billy, pretty wicked, for someone pretending to be a great guy, just here to bring people to the [false] truth!

 

[oldethennew]

why would anyone even want to call themselves anything other than a child of God?
why would anyone even want to say or do anything different that what our Lord did?
why would anyone want to associate themselves with anything other than what our
Holy Bible says we are, if we Love and Serve our Holy Saviour???
what did our Holy Saviour/Father call Himself or associate Himself with other than
asking us to be a part of His Holy Family and not a 'member' of a man-made denomination?

we have not yet figured out what the 'perk' of that would be...
'One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism'...

 

[CharlieGrown]

You missing the whole point wanderer! You told billyd the devils holding him back for his lack of faith and that is why he is not healed.

I was thinking he was just confused about WoF, nope sounds like he's comprehending it pretty well. Now just apply that to empty pockets wanderer and whatcha got? WoF.

 

[LanceA]

I'm not sure why anyone would get irked by this conversation. I don't understand how someone can say scripture is being twisted when the same could be said about any other person doing the same thing. This is directed at anyone who has said this not one person

I see scripture being posted supporting one side and scripture being posted supporting the other side.

Then I see the statement

What irks me is a lie that killed one of my best friends.

I love you Angela and not meaning to single you out. I have seen other comments similar to this regarding this topic and know you can handle me pointing yours out. I respect you and love you sis.

This is the heart of the matter, the hurt that has happened because the Lord allowed someone to pass away after they believed in healing. It isn't necessarily about the theology it is about the hurt and resentment people have.

None of us know what is hindering some to get healed and some others to not. I have even been attacked by my own sister for this and to this day she doesn't speak to me. I stopped doing chemo to trust in the Lord and to treat my cancer naturally. Because of this I am an outcast and family members won't talk to me.

I hear all the time this person died and that person died and this person was a true man or woman of faith. My comment to that is only God knows our deep dark secrets. None of us knows what is going on in anyone's life but our own. So with this thought does sin hinder healing? Does hatred or unforgiveness hinder healing? These are questions we must ask if we are going to understand why someone is healed and someone else isn't.

Could it be the person trying to heal be the problem? Is there sin in their lives that is putting the stop to healing? We don't know this for certain. What I hope, we all do know, is God doesn't want any of us to suffer in this life or the next.

I hope and pray all of us would just drop the theology and get right down to the basics of a relationship with the Lord. Now I'm not saying people in here don't have one but we just need to become like a child and just cuddle up on our Father's lap and allow Him to protect and care for us.

Well anyways, sorry for the long post. Please don't think I was trying to preach because I am in no way a preacher. I'm just a simple guy who sins like the next person or maybe more so. I'm a work in progress like anyone else. God Bless

 

[bluto]

You mean wanderer like some of the following extreme people here? Word Faith Movement - Berean Research

Please oh please don't tell me none of what they said and taught is taken out of context?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[LanceA]

You mean wanderer like some of the following extreme people here? Word Faith Movement - Berean Research

Please oh please don't tell me none of what they said and taught is taken out of context?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Not sure if that was directed at me or not . And I wasn't calling out one group I think it relates to everyone. I think you completely missed the point of the post. I'm sorry you are taking it as an attack on you.

 

[Angela53510]

Actually, pharmakea is witchcraft and is not of God.

God does not advocate the arm of the flesh versus His own power to heal.

The only thing good that can be said about medical science is... the Word never says it's the unpardonable sin.

Well the parmakea LIE, one more time. The word pharmakea only appears three times in the Bible - Rev. 18:23 9:21 and Gal. 5:20.

Φαρμακεία in those three cases, does mean sorcery or witchcraft. But, because it is such a low frequency word, it is necessary to check extra-biblical sources and cognates to get a better understanding of what the word means!

Φαρμακον, το, is a cognate which is much clearer. It refers to a drug. Since the Greeks really invented modern medicine, it is a good thing to find out what they meant by this word.

1. a harmful drug, poison
2. a drug used as a controlling medium, magic portion, charm
3. A healing remedy, medicine, remedy, drug.*

So, when the Bible uses this rare word, it is talking about #2 above. In those times, as sadly, today, those who set themselves up to be healers also learn the evil tricks of possessing someone by certain kinds of drugs which hypnotize or entrap. Certainly, this is what Paul was speaking about.

As for #1, definitely not a good thing!

As for #3 - this is the kind of medicine people are speaking of today. I am so glad that God gifted people with research and medical talents and they have found drugs which have kept me alive and serving God. I have seen old people, in the days before the modern DMARDS and biologics were discovered. It is not pretty. They are usually bed ridden or in wheelchairs, and the pain is excruciating.

I remember well when I was a chaplain in long term care, there was a wonderful man who had such bad RA, and not medicated for so many years before the new drugs were invented. He could not roll over in bed, dress himself or go to the bathroom on his own. But once he was dressed, he was up at his desk, studying the bible. He was a Pentecostal, but had accepted God had a different plan for his life. He was filled with the love of God and a passion to tell the other residents of the good news of Jesus Christ.

So when you get sick, feel free for me to remind you that pharmakov can be used to heal, and as a medicine to make you better.

PS. So glad my husband had penicillin when he got a Staph B infection on a few occasions. Because he would have died without it. Not having a spleen causes that. And a pneumococcus vaccine keeps him healthy now. Medicine is a gift from God, no doubt about it!

Bauer, BDAG. A Greek -English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. pf 1049-1050

 

[BeyondET]

why would anyone even want to call themselves anything other than a child of God?
why would anyone even want to say or do anything different that what our Lord did?
why would anyone want to associate themselves with anything other than what our
Holy Bible says we are, if we Love and Serve our Holy Saviour???
what did our Holy Saviour/Father call Himself or associate Himself with other than
asking us to be a part of His Holy Family and not a 'member' of a man-made denomination?

we have not yet figured out what the 'perk' of that would be...
'One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism'...

Amen to that, if I'm not mistaken I think the holy savior called the people He associated with His Brothers and Sisters...

 

[bluto]

No lance, I was not replying to you. In all my post I take the time to put the name of the poster in my first sentence. In this case it is "wanderer" the wof advocate who has been spiritually duped.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Ariel82]

Romans 8
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

****until we are given our resurrected bodies we will suffer, but God tells us it will be worth it when we spend eternity with Him. Jesus didn't die and suffer because of His sin but for ours. Perhaps we suffer not for our sins but others around us as a testimony to bring people to Christ. For our sins have been washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Angela53510]

I'm not sure why anyone would get irked by this conversation. I don't understand how someone can say scripture is being twisted when the same could be said about any other person doing the same thing. This is directed at anyone who has said this not one person

I see scripture being posted supporting one side and scripture being posted supporting the other side.

Then I see the statement I love you Angela and not meaning to single you out. I have seen other comments similar to this regarding this topic and know you can handle me pointing yours out. I respect you and love you sis.

This is the heart of the matter, the hurt that has happened because the Lord allowed someone to pass away after they believed in healing. It isn't necessarily about the theology it is about the hurt and resentment people have.

None of us know what is hindering some to get healed and some others to not. I have even been attacked by my own sister for this and to this day she doesn't speak to me. I stopped doing chemo to trust in the Lord and to treat my cancer naturally. Because of this I am an outcast and family members won't talk to me.

I hear all the time this person died and that person died and this person was a true man or woman of faith. My comment to that is only God knows our deep dark secrets. None of us knows what is going on in anyone's life but our own. So with this thought does sin hinder healing? Does hatred or unforgiveness hinder healing? These are questions we must ask if we are going to understand why someone is healed and someone else isn't.

Could it be the person trying to heal be the problem? Is there sin in their lives that is putting the stop to healing? We don't know this for certain. What I hope, we all do know, is God doesn't want any of us to suffer in this life or the next.

I hope and pray all of us would just drop the theology and get right down to the basics of a relationship with the Lord. Now I'm not saying people in here don't have one but we just need to become like a child and just cuddle up on our Father's lap and allow Him to protect and care for us.

Well anyways, sorry for the long post. Please don't think I was trying to preach because I am in no way a preacher. I'm just a simple guy who sins like the next person or maybe more so. I'm a work in progress like anyone else. God Bless

I appreciate your gentle reply. You must not have written what I have written about my friend, Nydia. She was very involved in the Word Faith about the time I was totally disabled with Rheumatoid Arthritis. She and her band of merry WoF people spent a lot of time laying hands on me, praying for my healing.

When I was not healed, they blamed me for having a lack of faith. Despite the fact that the way the Greek is worded in James 5:13-16 places the fault of not being healed on the elders who prayed, not the person who was sick. So I got blamed, and I went into deep depression, that my walk was God was bad. And because of that, it became not just bad, but non-existent.

I stopped going to church, and for the first time in 20 years, I stopped reading the Bible through. I stopped praying. That is a pretty harmful doctrine. They damaged me in my spirit, you have that right!

But fortunately, God used it for good. First, he had me just read the Psalms. I read 5 chapters a day, for 2 years. That is a read through every month. I heard a completely different story that the Word of Faith lies. I heard people crying out to God because they were hurting -physically, emotionally and in every way. I learned that people even got depressed in the Psalms, which made me realize I was not such a failure.

"Why am I so depressed?
Why this turmoil within me?
Put your hope in God, for I will still praise Him,
my Savior and my God." Psalm 42:5 HCSB

(I preached a sermon on Psalms 42 & 43 last year, if you want to know why this version is a bit different than the normal versions, and what God's word says about mental health problems. I can email it to anyone wanting to read it. Several people here really enjoyed it!)

Then, God began to use doctors to get me back to almost 100% normal, although I still had deformities. I really reclaimed so much more than the life I had been living. I became a road biker - I rode daily, and one summer, put 2000 km on my bicycle. God called me to seminary. I had not heeded his call the first time, but what an incredible experience of learning the Word of God, and growing closer to him, and learning how to minister to God's people, as a chaplain and pastor.

But in the midst of that long process of recovery, that Kenneth Copeland ordained pastor, friend of mine, who told me I didn't have enough faith to be healed, got breast cancer. She would not accept medical treatment. Was it the false doctrine of "pharmakea"being sorcery that scared her off? Or just her being so entrenched in her investment in Copeland's false doctrine, she could not swallow her pride and arrogance and get the chemo and radiation"

She died very quickly. Sadly, the cancer went into her brain, and she ended up insane before she died!

And you think my friend wasn't saved? She had been my mentor for the first 10 years I was saved. She was an evangelist and lead thousands to the Lord, in BC, California and many foreign countries, where she ministered with her husband. The man of God, who ended up committing adultery on my friend and walking out on her, and spending his evenings in the casinos and bars, before coming home at 4 am. Oh yes, and he preached on Sunday. So, yes, sometimes they are not right with God. The catch is - he didn't get sick, my friend who loved God with all her heart. I know there was no sin in her life. She was a great believer in confessing sin and repenting. But this WoF lie about claiming healing, she just couldn't repent and let it go. So sad.

I think you have fingered a couple of issues. But this condemnation by Wassup of people who are sick, is judgmental and evil. And Wanderer also saying people are following the devil, men of God who love Christ more than life itself.

That is beyond irksome, and just acts of horror. Those are the words from the devil. And yes, the "twisted" Scriptures that people use to say that healing is in the atonement. I wish that was the title of this, so maybe we could day on track. Because, the fact is this WOF heresy goes far beyond healing - to wealth, and false prophecy, false doctrine etc. Stephen63 had a good bunch of posts on page 17, I believe.

As for you and being cancer free - praise the Lord for this testimony. I hope and pray it does not return. It was obviously God's will that you be healed.