probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots
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M
As long as you rest body and mind. gather to read and practice our faith. Refrain from making a profit or directly causing someone to make a profit or wage. You are good.
And the violations acceptable for people who save lives as a job do not apply to someone who makes a wage say renting out hang gliders. If you hire one for sabbath to rest you are breaking sabbath. If you own one and use it after fulfilling your other obligations of gathering and reading there is no apparant violation.
And doing good on the sabbath is doing good in His eyes not your own. So going to a restaurant or movie is sabbath breaking. But making a meal for a homeless family and then watching a dvd you own with them isn't
And the violations acceptable for people who save lives as a job do not apply to someone who makes a wage say renting out hang gliders. If you hire one for sabbath to rest you are breaking sabbath. If you own one and use it after fulfilling your other obligations of gathering and reading there is no apparant violation.
And doing good on the sabbath is doing good in His eyes not your own. So going to a restaurant or movie is sabbath breaking. But making a meal for a homeless family and then watching a dvd you own with them isn't
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2 Peter 3:14-18
[FONT="]14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
What is Peters' solution for not being led away with the error of the wicked?
Grow in Grace and in the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Doesn't seem too terribly hard to understand. Lots of legalists try to use these scriptures to discredit Paul or try to say Paul didn't really mean to say that. Yes, he did. And Peter agrees with him. The unlearned and unstable are the ones that don't understand Paul. Those are Peters words. [/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
What is Peters' solution for not being led away with the error of the wicked?
Grow in Grace and in the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Doesn't seem too terribly hard to understand. Lots of legalists try to use these scriptures to discredit Paul or try to say Paul didn't really mean to say that. Yes, he did. And Peter agrees with him. The unlearned and unstable are the ones that don't understand Paul. Those are Peters words. [/FONT]
S
Just popped on in to CC after a much needed hiatus for the birth of our firstborn son. I see that Torah observance is still a hot topic. Many of the same people involved, but also some new names. The last post that I made was an attempt on another thread to synthesize some of the information and differences in our beliefs and practices as followers of the Messiah. I'm going to repeat some of that info here.
And to MacBestus: Many of us before you have attempted similar dialogues. They almost never end well. Hopefully you can see some positive impact where we have not -- at the very least, dispelling some of the myths about HRM and Torah-observant folks while encouraging mutual understanding.
Anyways, here goes (with some modifications to fit this discussion -- and I'll jump in later with more specific responses):
----------------------------------------------------
As MacBestus has pointed out a few times, I think the most obvious misunderstanding is incorrectly thinking that us Torah-observant folks think we are "saved" or obtain salvation by our obedience to the Father by following the commands. However, as MacBestus has consistently said, that is not our position -- we agree with Paul when he said: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not from yourselves—it is the gift of God. It is not based on deeds, so that no one may boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, TLV). We believe we are saved through our trust in and the faithfulness of the Messiah, as a free gift from the Father, not dependent on any series of righteous works prior to salvation.
The crux of the conversation should shift to what faithful obedience for the saved believer looks like, since this is where our primary disagreement lies. From what I can tell from this and other threads, I've noticed at least three ways of thinking (though there are more out there):
1. Faithful obedience is following what is found in post-resurrection writings (namely, various part of Acts and all of the epistles/revelation that follow) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position does not include instruction from much of the Gospels on the basis that they were written to those "under the Law" and sometimes even puts aside the earlier portions of Acts. It also does not hold most or all of the Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience, and justifies this position by stating that all the Torah/Law commands are "summed up" in one or two commands as stated and expanded upon in the New Testament, or by positing that the Messiah "fulfilled the Torah/Law", or that studying/following God's commands in the Torah/Law lead us to sinning, etc. (In sum, the Torah/Law is not a source at all)
2. Faithful obedience is following all New Testament writings (including the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position finds more of the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts as applicable, and sometimes even considers parts (or rarely all) of the Torah/Law as sources for faithful obedience, to the extent that they are interpreted and carried out in a "Spiritual" manner only (as opposed to the physical manner, which is often called the "carnal" manner or the "letter" of the Torah/Law). (In sum, the Torah/Law is a source to a certain extent)
3. Faithful obedience is following all of the Torah/Law, both Old and New Testament sources, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position views the entire Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience as we grow in faith and follow the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant. This position also holds that certain portions of the Torah/Law are not able to presently be carried out (e.g., there is no temple or functioning Levitical priesthood, being outside of the land of Israel, etc.), though these may or definitely will be restored and carried out in the future. It also maintains that, while there is a Spiritual aspect to the Torah/Law (cf. the Messiah's counsel on faithfully carrying out certain Torah/Law commands), the Spiritual aspect does not cancel out the physical aspect in most or all cases (e.g., we must not physically murder and also not have hate in our hearts, not one or the other). (In sum, the Torah/Law is fully a source)
We Torah observant folks fall somewhere in category three, though individual perspectives will vary to certain degrees, while also fully realizing that extreme or fringe groups exist in many denominations, including in HRM. The term "Torah-observant" has its usefulness, but we really look at ourselves as "Messiah followers", and walking the way that He walked leads us to studying and observing the Torah-commands of God since Messiah also walked in those same commands. Relying on the guidance of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit has its role, but we also don't discount the importance of studying the full breadth of God's written word. In sum, we view proper faithful obedience as living like the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant, and we view the Torah/Law as a legitimate source for faithful obedience as it is a reflection of the life and teachings of the Messiah. We also include the Messiah's expanded counsel and the leading of the Holy Spirit as legitimate sources for faithful obedience, and that none of these (Torah/Law, Messiah, Holy Spirit) should be in conflict with the other.
So there you have it. I can anticipate some of the responses as much of what is being said in this thread has been said multiple times over in other threads. But I do agree with MacBestus that many of claims against HRM and Torah-observant folks are inaccurate, either stemming from inexperience with the movement or not properly understanding what we believe. Hopefully this will serve as an easy-to-understand basis upon which to further our discussions. It's simple: we believe salvation is by grace, and that obedience after salvation means learning to walk as the Messiah walked.
Blessings to you all.
And to MacBestus: Many of us before you have attempted similar dialogues. They almost never end well. Hopefully you can see some positive impact where we have not -- at the very least, dispelling some of the myths about HRM and Torah-observant folks while encouraging mutual understanding.
Anyways, here goes (with some modifications to fit this discussion -- and I'll jump in later with more specific responses):
----------------------------------------------------
As MacBestus has pointed out a few times, I think the most obvious misunderstanding is incorrectly thinking that us Torah-observant folks think we are "saved" or obtain salvation by our obedience to the Father by following the commands. However, as MacBestus has consistently said, that is not our position -- we agree with Paul when he said: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not from yourselves—it is the gift of God. It is not based on deeds, so that no one may boast." (Eph. 2:8-9, TLV). We believe we are saved through our trust in and the faithfulness of the Messiah, as a free gift from the Father, not dependent on any series of righteous works prior to salvation.
The crux of the conversation should shift to what faithful obedience for the saved believer looks like, since this is where our primary disagreement lies. From what I can tell from this and other threads, I've noticed at least three ways of thinking (though there are more out there):
1. Faithful obedience is following what is found in post-resurrection writings (namely, various part of Acts and all of the epistles/revelation that follow) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position does not include instruction from much of the Gospels on the basis that they were written to those "under the Law" and sometimes even puts aside the earlier portions of Acts. It also does not hold most or all of the Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience, and justifies this position by stating that all the Torah/Law commands are "summed up" in one or two commands as stated and expanded upon in the New Testament, or by positing that the Messiah "fulfilled the Torah/Law", or that studying/following God's commands in the Torah/Law lead us to sinning, etc. (In sum, the Torah/Law is not a source at all)
2. Faithful obedience is following all New Testament writings (including the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts) and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position finds more of the Gospels and earlier portions of Acts as applicable, and sometimes even considers parts (or rarely all) of the Torah/Law as sources for faithful obedience, to the extent that they are interpreted and carried out in a "Spiritual" manner only (as opposed to the physical manner, which is often called the "carnal" manner or the "letter" of the Torah/Law). (In sum, the Torah/Law is a source to a certain extent)
3. Faithful obedience is following all of the Torah/Law, both Old and New Testament sources, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. This position views the entire Torah/Law as a source for faithful obedience as we grow in faith and follow the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant. This position also holds that certain portions of the Torah/Law are not able to presently be carried out (e.g., there is no temple or functioning Levitical priesthood, being outside of the land of Israel, etc.), though these may or definitely will be restored and carried out in the future. It also maintains that, while there is a Spiritual aspect to the Torah/Law (cf. the Messiah's counsel on faithfully carrying out certain Torah/Law commands), the Spiritual aspect does not cancel out the physical aspect in most or all cases (e.g., we must not physically murder and also not have hate in our hearts, not one or the other). (In sum, the Torah/Law is fully a source)
We Torah observant folks fall somewhere in category three, though individual perspectives will vary to certain degrees, while also fully realizing that extreme or fringe groups exist in many denominations, including in HRM. The term "Torah-observant" has its usefulness, but we really look at ourselves as "Messiah followers", and walking the way that He walked leads us to studying and observing the Torah-commands of God since Messiah also walked in those same commands. Relying on the guidance of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit has its role, but we also don't discount the importance of studying the full breadth of God's written word. In sum, we view proper faithful obedience as living like the Messiah, who Himself was Torah observant, and we view the Torah/Law as a legitimate source for faithful obedience as it is a reflection of the life and teachings of the Messiah. We also include the Messiah's expanded counsel and the leading of the Holy Spirit as legitimate sources for faithful obedience, and that none of these (Torah/Law, Messiah, Holy Spirit) should be in conflict with the other.
So there you have it. I can anticipate some of the responses as much of what is being said in this thread has been said multiple times over in other threads. But I do agree with MacBestus that many of claims against HRM and Torah-observant folks are inaccurate, either stemming from inexperience with the movement or not properly understanding what we believe. Hopefully this will serve as an easy-to-understand basis upon which to further our discussions. It's simple: we believe salvation is by grace, and that obedience after salvation means learning to walk as the Messiah walked.
Blessings to you all.
M
You quoted not one verse to deny the verses I quoted. That means you are sharing opinion instead of rightly dividing scripture. You will forgive me if I choose to believe scripture over "garee from the internet." especially in violation of basic Christian understanding. There is not a single Christian sect who does not believe the high priesthood our Messiah inherits is the Melchizedek high priesthood. It is said in too many places in Scripture to pull it off. You are inventing theology in an attempt to disprove the bible. Even Wikipedia would be a better source than that.
S
Dan, good to see you around. I see you're still doing what you can to encourage discussions on "Torah/Law practice" as opposed to "Torah/Law theory". The only hiccup, in my opinion, is that if we don't first agree on "Torah/Law theory", then there is no value in discussing "Torah/Law practice".
What I mean is this: if we don't first fundamentally agree that we should consider the Torah-commands of God as legitimate sources of growing in our obedience and walk with Messiah, then there is no point in discussing how to apply them. I.e., if someone views them not as a source, then that person will not care about how to apply them. It's only after we agree that they have value that we can discuss as brothers and sisters about how to apply them. But many on this board don't view them as legitimate sources for application, so they are dismissed before ever consulting them in favor of a Spirit-led growth theology that only considers the NT (or subsections thereof) as practical guides for obedience. See my previous post a few minutes ago for my take on the different perspectives of obedience that have been shared on this board.
This dismissal argument comes in many forms; e.g., the Torah-commands being "nailed to the cross", or a source of sin, or individual commands being annulled by the Messiah and/or disciples, etc. I think one of the most concerning observations I have made on this board is the attempt by some to say they follow a command by not really following it -- i.e., attempting to posit a "spiritual" following while dismissing the "physical" following. Examples abound on this board. I believe one does not replace the other -- there are physical and spiritual applications (e.g., we don't physically murder and also don't have hate in our hearts).
So anyways, for us to have a meaningful dialogue on Torah/Law practice, we must first agree that the Torah-commands of God are valuable and applicable to our lives. Then we can discuss and grow together as brothers and sisters in Messiah as we study the Scriptures and are led by the Holy Spirit on the details of application.
What I mean is this: if we don't first fundamentally agree that we should consider the Torah-commands of God as legitimate sources of growing in our obedience and walk with Messiah, then there is no point in discussing how to apply them. I.e., if someone views them not as a source, then that person will not care about how to apply them. It's only after we agree that they have value that we can discuss as brothers and sisters about how to apply them. But many on this board don't view them as legitimate sources for application, so they are dismissed before ever consulting them in favor of a Spirit-led growth theology that only considers the NT (or subsections thereof) as practical guides for obedience. See my previous post a few minutes ago for my take on the different perspectives of obedience that have been shared on this board.
This dismissal argument comes in many forms; e.g., the Torah-commands being "nailed to the cross", or a source of sin, or individual commands being annulled by the Messiah and/or disciples, etc. I think one of the most concerning observations I have made on this board is the attempt by some to say they follow a command by not really following it -- i.e., attempting to posit a "spiritual" following while dismissing the "physical" following. Examples abound on this board. I believe one does not replace the other -- there are physical and spiritual applications (e.g., we don't physically murder and also don't have hate in our hearts).
So anyways, for us to have a meaningful dialogue on Torah/Law practice, we must first agree that the Torah-commands of God are valuable and applicable to our lives. Then we can discuss and grow together as brothers and sisters in Messiah as we study the Scriptures and are led by the Holy Spirit on the details of application.
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what is it you would like me to explain?
I'm not in favor of lawlessness.
29 Don’t let any evil posts come out of your fingertips.
Write only what will help to build others up and meet their needs.
Then what you write will help those who listen.
19
In the multitude of words sin is not lacking,
But he who restrains his lips is wise.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+10:19&version=NKJV
I'm not in favor of lawlessness.
29 Don’t let any evil posts come out of your fingertips.
Write only what will help to build others up and meet their needs.
Then what you write will help those who listen.
19
In the multitude of words sin is not lacking,
But he who restrains his lips is wise.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+10:19&version=NKJV
right, and it looks to me like the decision of whether (for example) something is causing someone to make a profit, or whether is about saving lives is with the individual.
16 So don’t let anyone judge you because of what you eat or drink. Don’t let anyone judge you
about holy days. I’m talking about special feasts and New Moons and Sabbath days.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col+2&version=NIRV
16 So don’t let anyone judge you because of what you eat or drink. Don’t let anyone judge you
about holy days. I’m talking about special feasts and New Moons and Sabbath days.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col+2&version=NIRV
M
M
You know, this verse can actually be used to support the HRM perspective. This is why it is so important to figure out that verse set from 2 Peter.
Either Paul preached both law keeping and against law keeping (nutty) or he only preached for law keeping.
From the Eliyah compilation:
First off, it's obvious that Paul himself believed in keeping the Law:
Acts 24:14 (NKJV) - "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.*
Acts 25:8 - while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."
Acts 18:21 - but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, Yahweh willing." And he sailed from Ephesus.
Romans 7:25 - I thank Yahweh--through Yahushua the Messiah our Master! So then, with the mind I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, but with the flesh the Law of sin.
Paul taught the disciples not to let anyone judge them for observing the Law*(See*Colossians study):
Colo 2:16-17 - So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of the Messiah.
Paul says that the doers of the Law will be justified and those who break it will be judged.
Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;
The word that is translated "without Law" here is word #460 which means "not amenable to the Jewish/Mosaic Law". (See Thayers and Strong's lexicon).*Paul says that we know His will and approve the things that are excellent when instructed out of the Law.
Romans 2:17 - Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the Law, and make your boast in Yahweh, 18 and know [His] will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the Law.
Here he says that when we break the Law, we dishonor Yahweh and blaspheme His name.*
Romans 2:21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the Law, do you dishonor Yahweh through breaking the Law? 24 For "the name of Yahweh is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.
Here Paul twice states that we learn what sin is from the Law. This backs up the statement in 1John 3:4 that Sin is transgression of the Law.
Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the Law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 - What shall we say then? [Is] the Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the Law had said, "You shall not covet."
Here is a key scripture proving that Paul believed that thru faith we do not make the Law void, but rather we establish the Law (To cause or make to stand, #2476).
Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Here is another key scripture like the one above proving that Paul did not believe that once we are under grace, that we can continue to sin (break the Law):
Romans 6:15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?
Here Paul is equating "the Law" with "the commandment" and stating his opinion of them:
Romans 7:12 - Therefore the Law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Here is an unpopular statement of Paul's. Many like to believe that the Law is of the flesh. Not true! It's spiritual:
Romans 7:14 - For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Paul delights in the Law of Yahweh
Romans 7:22 - For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man.
Now we will move on to where Paul uses the term "Lawlessness". The word that is translated "Lawlessness" in the following verses is the Greek word*"anomia"which carries the following definition:
BDB/Thayers #*458
458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah}
from 459; TDNT - 4:1085,646; n f
AV - iniquity 12, unrighteousness 1, transgress the law + 4060 1,
transgression of the law 1; 15
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Now for a second witness here is the definition of this in the Strong's Hebrew Lexicon:
458. anomia, an-om-ee'-ah; from 459;illegality, i.e.*violation of the law*or (gen.) wickedness: --- iniquity X transgress (ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Now note that both lexicons it states that both of these words come from the Greek word #459. This word means "To be destitute or in violation of the Mosaic or Jewish Law" (See Thayer's and Strong's Lexicons). Now the word #458 is translated "transgression of the Law" in the King James version of 1john 3:4
1Joh 3:4 (KJV) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law.
Yes, this was written by John but it is surely showing that this word is certainly the definition of sin. For sin is "anomia" (condition of being without the Law or violation of the Law, transgression of the Law)
In these verses he shows that righteousness is the opposite of Lawlessness (#458 in violation of the Law). Therefore if one is keeping the Law, they must walking in righteousness. (Though this is confirmed already by many verses I have already shown.) Please also remember this for later in the study.
Romans 6:19 - I speak in human [terms] because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members [as] slaves of uncleanness, and of Lawlessness [leading] to [more] Lawlessness, so now present your members [as] slaves [of] righteousness for holiness.
2Cor 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with Lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
Here again, Paul equates this word (#458) Lawless with SIN.
Romans 4:7 - "Blessed [are those] whose Lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;*
Now here is an example where this word is used when translating the Old Testament.
Hebr 1:9 - You have loved righteousness and hated Lawlessness (#458); Therefore Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You. With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
Now this is interesting...here is an example of where the New Testament is quoting from the old testament. (From the Hebrew to the greek). Now what word does this greek word #458 translate from? Let's find out:
Psal 45:6 (KJV) Thy throne, O El', [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:*(From the greek #458)*therefore El', thy El', hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
So it comes from the Hebrew word reshah (#7562) which means "Wickedness" !! Now how is this word used in other places in scripture? Here we seen an example of a Psalm that makes wickedness the opposite of righteousness. (Just as Paul taught).
Now this study might go on forever and ever proving that the meaning of what Paul meant by "righteousness" was obedience to the Law but lets look at some examples.
Romans 6:16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?
Here obedience is equated with righteousness (as defined by the Law)
Romans 10:5 - For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the Law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
Here are many other scriptures then where Paul says that we ought to walk in righteousness:
Ephe 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now [you] [are] light in Yahweh. Walk as children of light* 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to Yahweh. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose [them].
Ephe 6:14 - Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
Phil 1:9 - And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, Phil 1:10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of the Messiah, Phil 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which [are] by Yahushua the Messiah, to the glory and praise of Yahweh.
2Tim 2:22 - Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on Yahweh out of a pure heart. 23 - But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
Here is an example where Paul takes another step forward in showing that ALL SCRIPTURE (which must include the Law of Yahweh because there was no written "new testament" at that time) is given by Yahweh, profitable for doctrine, for reproof and*instruction in righteousness.
2Tim 3:16 - All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of Yahweh, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of Yahweh may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Now in conclusion I must say that there would have to be very little doubt that according to these verses in which Paul spoke, he certainly upheld the Law as the very definition of righteousness and holiness. And he taught that breaking these commandments were Unrighteousness, Lawlessness, wickedness, and most importantly, SIN.
Therefore we can conclude that whenever Paul speaks of Sin...he most certainly is talking about disobeying the commandments in the Law. How many more scriptures could be added where Paul speaks against sin? This study would certainly be many pages long!
Therefore, we can see that it must have been obvious to Paul as well as quite obvious to his followers that Law obedience was expected. I believe that many of the details of Law observance were worked out in their public meetings as well as in the synagogues (see where James made the decision in Acts 15 that the Gentiles would learn the Law on the synagogues every Sabbath).
In light of all of these scriptures, it is quite clear that breaking Yahweh's law is the very definition of sin. May Yahweh lead us into the the truth and into His Kingdom by His wonderful Spirit which is the word of Yahweh. (John 6:63)
One final quote:
Romans 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against Yahweh; for it is not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be
Either Paul preached both law keeping and against law keeping (nutty) or he only preached for law keeping.
From the Eliyah compilation:
First off, it's obvious that Paul himself believed in keeping the Law:
Acts 24:14 (NKJV) - "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.*
Acts 25:8 - while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."
Acts 18:21 - but took leave of them, saying, "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, Yahweh willing." And he sailed from Ephesus.
Romans 7:25 - I thank Yahweh--through Yahushua the Messiah our Master! So then, with the mind I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, but with the flesh the Law of sin.
Paul taught the disciples not to let anyone judge them for observing the Law*(See*Colossians study):
Colo 2:16-17 - So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of the Messiah.
Paul says that the doers of the Law will be justified and those who break it will be judged.
Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;
The word that is translated "without Law" here is word #460 which means "not amenable to the Jewish/Mosaic Law". (See Thayers and Strong's lexicon).*Paul says that we know His will and approve the things that are excellent when instructed out of the Law.
Romans 2:17 - Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the Law, and make your boast in Yahweh, 18 and know [His] will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the Law.
Here he says that when we break the Law, we dishonor Yahweh and blaspheme His name.*
Romans 2:21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the Law, do you dishonor Yahweh through breaking the Law? 24 For "the name of Yahweh is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.
Here Paul twice states that we learn what sin is from the Law. This backs up the statement in 1John 3:4 that Sin is transgression of the Law.
Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the Law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 - What shall we say then? [Is] the Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the Law had said, "You shall not covet."
Here is a key scripture proving that Paul believed that thru faith we do not make the Law void, but rather we establish the Law (To cause or make to stand, #2476).
Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Here is another key scripture like the one above proving that Paul did not believe that once we are under grace, that we can continue to sin (break the Law):
Romans 6:15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?
Here Paul is equating "the Law" with "the commandment" and stating his opinion of them:
Romans 7:12 - Therefore the Law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Here is an unpopular statement of Paul's. Many like to believe that the Law is of the flesh. Not true! It's spiritual:
Romans 7:14 - For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Paul delights in the Law of Yahweh
Romans 7:22 - For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man.
Now we will move on to where Paul uses the term "Lawlessness". The word that is translated "Lawlessness" in the following verses is the Greek word*"anomia"which carries the following definition:
BDB/Thayers #*458
458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah}
from 459; TDNT - 4:1085,646; n f
AV - iniquity 12, unrighteousness 1, transgress the law + 4060 1,
transgression of the law 1; 15
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Now for a second witness here is the definition of this in the Strong's Hebrew Lexicon:
458. anomia, an-om-ee'-ah; from 459;illegality, i.e.*violation of the law*or (gen.) wickedness: --- iniquity X transgress (ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Now note that both lexicons it states that both of these words come from the Greek word #459. This word means "To be destitute or in violation of the Mosaic or Jewish Law" (See Thayer's and Strong's Lexicons). Now the word #458 is translated "transgression of the Law" in the King James version of 1john 3:4
1Joh 3:4 (KJV) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law.
Yes, this was written by John but it is surely showing that this word is certainly the definition of sin. For sin is "anomia" (condition of being without the Law or violation of the Law, transgression of the Law)
In these verses he shows that righteousness is the opposite of Lawlessness (#458 in violation of the Law). Therefore if one is keeping the Law, they must walking in righteousness. (Though this is confirmed already by many verses I have already shown.) Please also remember this for later in the study.
Romans 6:19 - I speak in human [terms] because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members [as] slaves of uncleanness, and of Lawlessness [leading] to [more] Lawlessness, so now present your members [as] slaves [of] righteousness for holiness.
2Cor 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with Lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
Here again, Paul equates this word (#458) Lawless with SIN.
Romans 4:7 - "Blessed [are those] whose Lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;*
Now here is an example where this word is used when translating the Old Testament.
Hebr 1:9 - You have loved righteousness and hated Lawlessness (#458); Therefore Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You. With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
Now this is interesting...here is an example of where the New Testament is quoting from the old testament. (From the Hebrew to the greek). Now what word does this greek word #458 translate from? Let's find out:
Psal 45:6 (KJV) Thy throne, O El', [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:*(From the greek #458)*therefore El', thy El', hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
So it comes from the Hebrew word reshah (#7562) which means "Wickedness" !! Now how is this word used in other places in scripture? Here we seen an example of a Psalm that makes wickedness the opposite of righteousness. (Just as Paul taught).
Now this study might go on forever and ever proving that the meaning of what Paul meant by "righteousness" was obedience to the Law but lets look at some examples.
Romans 6:16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?
Here obedience is equated with righteousness (as defined by the Law)
Romans 10:5 - For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the Law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
Here are many other scriptures then where Paul says that we ought to walk in righteousness:
Ephe 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now [you] [are] light in Yahweh. Walk as children of light* 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to Yahweh. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose [them].
Ephe 6:14 - Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
Phil 1:9 - And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, Phil 1:10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of the Messiah, Phil 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which [are] by Yahushua the Messiah, to the glory and praise of Yahweh.
2Tim 2:22 - Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on Yahweh out of a pure heart. 23 - But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
Here is an example where Paul takes another step forward in showing that ALL SCRIPTURE (which must include the Law of Yahweh because there was no written "new testament" at that time) is given by Yahweh, profitable for doctrine, for reproof and*instruction in righteousness.
2Tim 3:16 - All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of Yahweh, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of Yahweh may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Now in conclusion I must say that there would have to be very little doubt that according to these verses in which Paul spoke, he certainly upheld the Law as the very definition of righteousness and holiness. And he taught that breaking these commandments were Unrighteousness, Lawlessness, wickedness, and most importantly, SIN.
Therefore we can conclude that whenever Paul speaks of Sin...he most certainly is talking about disobeying the commandments in the Law. How many more scriptures could be added where Paul speaks against sin? This study would certainly be many pages long!
Therefore, we can see that it must have been obvious to Paul as well as quite obvious to his followers that Law obedience was expected. I believe that many of the details of Law observance were worked out in their public meetings as well as in the synagogues (see where James made the decision in Acts 15 that the Gentiles would learn the Law on the synagogues every Sabbath).
In light of all of these scriptures, it is quite clear that breaking Yahweh's law is the very definition of sin. May Yahweh lead us into the the truth and into His Kingdom by His wonderful Spirit which is the word of Yahweh. (John 6:63)
One final quote:
Romans 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against Yahweh; for it is not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be