probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots

[MacBestus]

No one is denying verses. Offering my private interpretation as a opinion is not denying.Its giving a personal interpretation.The same as yourself.

Melchizedek was a theophany. The Son of God remains a priest continually without beginning or end. Melchizedek typifies the Son of God as a shadow. We don’t inherit from shadows.

Just curious but to what time period do you think the first century reformation was restored to?

I cannot answer your question as asked because I have a different understanding of the reformation than your question allows....that being said.

I know you know this but I am putting it here to forestall martin luther comments from others.

We are not speaking of the protestant reformation from Roman Catholic Church.

So I will first post your question again then answer it. Sort of.

Your comment:"
Melchizedek was a theophany. The Son of God remains a priest continually without beginning or end. Melchizedek typifies the Son of God as a shadow. We don’t inherit from shadows.

Just curious but to what time period do you think the first century reformation was restored to?"

Your right about connecting the Melchizedek priesthood with the reformation. That is good to see from someone on your side of the sin doctrine debate. And unusual.

By the way. In a ironic twist. I take the majority opinion (theologically not necessarily in this forum) on Melchizedek in Genesis being a theophany...or more accurately a Christophany. I do not believe he was. As the majority of Christians and 99% of Jews, I believe him to be an actual human. But I do not deny the possibility. It just does not fit with the majority of Melchizedek verses.. On to what I can answer.

The first step is figuring out as best we can what the reformation is. Then we can figure out timing somewhat. Both to when it occurs as well as to when it points to.

I am assuming the reformation verse you are pointing to is the
Hebrews verse:

Hebrews 9:9**Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

*10**Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The word reformation should also be clarified to be sure we have the concept correct.

G1357

Original:*διόρθωσις

Transliteration:*diorthōsis

Phonetic:*dee-or'-tho-sis

Thayer Definition:

in a physical sense, a making straight, restoring to its natural and normal condition something which in some way protrudes or has got out of line, as broken or misshapen limbsof acts and institutions, reformation

Origin: from a compound of*G1223*and a derivative of*G3717, meaning to straighten thoroughly

TDNT entry: 12:30,7

Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine

Strong's Definition: From a compound of*G1223*and a derivative of*G3717, meaning to*straighten thoroughly*;*rectification, that is, (specifically) the Messianic restoration: - reformation.

So the reformation puts everything back the way it was supposed to be.

Hebrews 6-10. Where this verse lies, is about Yahshua and his order of Melchizedek makes this happen.

These verses among others allude to imperfect man being put back into a state of perfection.... As we were in Eden.

We are given some clues about this by Jeremiah, John, and Messiah.

In Eden, the way to live (Torah) was written in our inward parts. We had no written law and only one spoken law.

The rest was guided by our perfection and direct contact with the Father. This is the state we will get back to. This is not only a spiritual state, we know it will be physical as well. This either happens at the beginning or end of the millennium.


Jerimiah 31:*33**But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith*יהוה, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.

*34**And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know*יהוה: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith*יהוה; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

*35**Thus saith*יהוה, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar;*יהוה*of hosts is his name:

So this is a sign of the reformation... No more pastors. Law is the one YHWH writes in is. The Torah is no longer written one we have now.

YahShua tells us when this will happen in Matthew 5:
18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

No we know the whole of the law has not been fulfilled. The fall feasts among other things have yet to happen. Which makes sense as the heaven and earth are still here. When do heaven and earth pass away?

According to Revelations directly after the Great White Throne Judgement.

Revelations 21:1**And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Then those who overcame move into New Jerusalem. And look the trees are back in the middle.

This is the reformation. This of course truncated. If you need more verses there are plenty.

 

[MacBestus]

Yes!

Now... you wrote
'I believe that many of the details of Law observance were worked out in their public meetings as well as in the synagogues'

What is it you feel was worked out?

Everything we are taught in Acts and the Epistles are views shared or worked out together by disciples, based on the old testament and the testimony of Messiah. They clarified it amongst themselves. We were given the example of how it worked in the letter to Galations/Jerusalem Council event
The Pharisees raised a ruckus based on misunderstanding. They brought it to council. Consensus was reached.

Note that they didnt just trust the majority they took it to Scripture and Messiah and ended up taking what appears to be the minority opinion among Jews who grew up with Talmudic rules.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan. I'm not really in a position to give a substantive answer right now, but here are my thoughts: In most cases, it only takes common sense to tell whether or not someone is keeping a Torah command at least in some basic fundamental sense. E.g., a person is not keeping the command prohibiting adultery against one's spouse if that person is out there having physical sexual intercourse with other people. Either a person couldn't give a hoot less about the command and is out there committing adultery freely, or that person is refraining from adultery and keeping the command. If you know a brother or sister in Messiah who is having sex outside of their marriage, then it is your place to talk to them about it and attempt to help set them straight. And when two people at least agree that the command should be kept, and are avoiding the most basic fundamental (I would almost say "obvious") violations of the command, then those two can further discuss as brothers and sisters in Messiah about the further details of how to keep the command.

E.g., is it adultery if someone isn't physically having sex with another person, but perhaps watching pornography. Or if the person is simply looking at or thinking about another person in a lustful manner. The Messiah brought clarity to this specific matter by saying that looking at another person lustfully is, in fact, a form of adultery since it is adultery of the heart (cf. Matt. 5:27-28). His deeper ("spiritual"?) application of the command does not negate the physical in any sense -- He is simply saying that the inside of the cup must also be clean, as well as the outside. The Torah command still stands, and Messiah has brought a fuller meaning to it for us all to more properly live out God's will regarding that command. There is no instance where someone could commit the physical act of sex and not be violating the command, regardless of what they think is going on in their heart (e.g., lust-less or heartless sex, if there is such a thing? -- I would argue not). It's now up to us as brothers and sisters in Messiah to meditate on the Word (including the Torah command as originally given), consult the Holy Spirit, and discuss with each other about how to properly walk with regard to this instruction from God. E.g., maybe we shouldn't be having that intimate conversation with a co-worker of the opposite sex -- perhaps it crosses a line. The Scriptures often don't include this level of specificity, so we seek using the methods above, definitely avoiding physical sex (which is the most fundamental violation of God's instruction to not commit adultery), but also to stay on the right side of that line in accordance with God's will regarding matters of the heart.

I make the same case for dietary restrictions. As I previously said, there is a basic fundamental violation that should allow common sense to dictate whether or not someone cares about keeping the command: is a person physically eating the meat of unclean animals, like pork or shrimp? Particulars beyond what the Scriptures plainly state are for us to come to understand as we learn and grow. Discussion among brothers and sisters is among our options.

In sum, yes, I believe there is some level of basic fundamental practice that a brother or sister can call someone else out on. Then somewhere it crosses over into particulars that require more growth and understanding, which we are encouraged to pursue multiple times over in the Scriptures. If I walk into my Torah-observant congregation chomping on a piece of shrimp, then people there have every right to call me out on violating the command (assuming we agree that command should be kept). But beyond that, I and those in my circle have discussions about the various ways we live our lives in obedience to God's will behind that command. Some friends I have will eat gelatin, others will not (concerns about the animal source); some will eat out at restaurants, others will not (concerns about how the food is handled and prepared). One of us is right and the other wrong on these applications, but thankfully we have God's grace to forgive us where we make mistakes. The important thing to note, though, is that we are not lawless people, even if we are walking about the commands in less-than-perfect manners. The lawless person says to not even consider them; the lawful person considers them and works out the application details in their walk with Messiah, and is forgiven where they fall short.

well... to me it's obvious that buying and using electricity on the Sabbath is wrong. When I told this to roots folks, they said I was acting like a Pharisee.

it looks to me like appealing to the obvious just moves the question to Obvious to who? to which individual?

 

[MacBestus]

I don't know Greek.

But it should be evident that the error of the wicked is the opposite of the solution for the error of the wicked.


The error of the wicked is not growing in grace and not growing in the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Peter said that Paul is hard to understand for the unlearned and the unstable, probably because they are led away with the error of the wicked.

It more than likely all ties together, don't you think?

I do think. But not the way you mean.

If you don't understand the question, you arent understanding the answer.

As already said a million times HRM is a Grace teaching. So that line answers to my side as well. The key word appears to be the woerd wicked. It is published as lawless and wicked in different versions. This is because it means BOTH in the Hebrew. Or more accurately there is no English direct equivalent. Which is why Concordances exist. I gave you the Greek word and definitions from the two primary Concordances.

Do you deny the meaning? Should we choose our version by the ones that "prove" our theology using the difficulty in translations rather than be seekers of truth?

This is the very reason the Jehovas Witnesses printed their own bible.

Shouldn't we be seekers of truth? Rather than dogma?

Or do you really think Strongs and Thayers should only be relied on when we agree with them?

John 4:21 Yahushua saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 Elohim is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[Grace777x70]

To me the number 1 error is that some extreme Hebrew Roots Movement people that I have observed here in CC is that they continually leave out Christ for the Law of Moses.

They are trying to live by the shadow when the substance is here - Christ Himself.

As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him. - not the law of Moses.

Paul said that in the last days people would be anti-Christ - NOT anti-God. They are all for "God" in the form of the Jewish Law of Moses but are definitely anti-Christ in their belief system.

They are continually trying to get Gentile Christians to go back to the Law of Moses just like Paul's Judaizers in the book of Galatians. Paul said that he didn't let this be for even one hour. Ga. 2:3-5

There is a massive difference between being for Christ and being for God although one wouldn't think there shouldn't be - but there is. Muslims are all for "God" in their own thinking as well.

The defining question is this. "IF Christians do not observe the Sabbath and feasts as in the law of Moses - are they dis-obeying God and sinning?" If the Hebrew Roots believer says - "Yes". That is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We as Christians are free to observe any day or feast however we desire as we have that liberty in Christ - but when the extreme Roots believers say that we must follow the law of Moses - that's where it becomes an anti-Christ belief system that exchanges the Lord Jesus Christ for the keeping of the Law.

 

[MacBestus]

well... to me it's obvious that buying and using electricity on the Sabbath is wrong. When I told this to roots folks, they said I was acting like a Pharisee.

it looks to me like appealing to the obvious just moves the question to Obvious to who? to which individual?

I don't know any hebrew roots who think its ok to buy and sell on Sabbath. As to Electricity. It is not forbidden in and of itself. And the workers have to be there for safety. I do not see how it would violate Torah...

 

[MacBestus]

To me the number 1 error is that some extreme Hebrew Roots Movement people that I have observed here in CC is that they continually leave out Christ for the Law of Moses.

They are trying to live by the shadow when the substance is here - Christ Himself.

As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him. - not the law of Moses.

Paul said that in the last days people would be anti-Christ - NOT anti-God. They are all for "God" in the form of the Jewish Law of Moses but are definitely anti-Christ in their belief system.

They are continually trying to get Gentile Christians to go back to the Law of Moses just like Paul's Judaizers in the book of Galatians. Paul said that he didn't let this be for even one hour. Ga. 2:3-5

There is a massive difference between being for Christ and being for God although one wouldn't think there shouldn't be - but there is. Muslims are all for "God" in their own thinking as well.

The defining question is this. "IF Christians do not observe the Sabbath and feasts as in the law of Moses - are they dis-obeying God and sinning?" If the Hebrew Roots believer says - "Yes". That is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We as Christians are free to observe any day or feast however we desire as we have that liberty in Christ - but when the extreme Roots believers say that we must follow the law of Moses - that's where it becomes an anti-Christ belief system that exchanges the Lord Jesus Christ for the keeping of the Law.

You are still twisting Paul. Will you please explain how you ignore Peters warning so willfully? Eagerly?

How does this make sense to you?

Was Peter wrong?

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work.

Hebrews 4:10 We are to cease from our own work and enter into what Christ has done. Christ Himself is our Sabbath rest. The Sabbath speaks of Christ and we have Him now if we are in fact "in Christ".

 

[Grace777x70]

If we are not under the law of Moses anymore - what is to keep us in line now? Can we really trust the life of Christ in us? Can we really trust the Holy Spirit in us?

We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.

There is no greater revelation than to know Him and the Father and to plumb the depths of their love and grace towards us which Paul says in Eph. 2:7 - the Father will be doing for all the ages to come to us.

Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the beggarly elements that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[Grandpa]

I do think. But not the way you mean.

If you don't understand the question, you arent understanding the answer.

As already said a million times HRM is a Grace teaching. So that line answers to my side as well. The key word appears to be the woerd wicked. It is published as lawless and wicked in different versions. This is because it means BOTH in the Hebrew. Or more accurately there is no English direct equivalent. Which is why Concordances exist. I gave you the Greek word and definitions from the two primary Concordances.

Do you deny the meaning? Should we choose our version by the ones that "prove" our theology using the difficulty in translations rather than be seekers of truth?

This is the very reason the Jehovas Witnesses printed their own bible.

Shouldn't we be seekers of truth? Rather than dogma?

Or do you really think Strongs and Thayers should only be relied on when we agree with them?

John 4:21 Yahushua saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 Elohim is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

If you don't understand the plain meaning of scriptures I suppose you could take any word in the scriptures you want and twist it to mean anything you want it to.

I told you what it meant, using the scriptures it was contained in. Very simple. We don't need to argue over what your opinion of what is lawless or what is wicked. The bible tells us very plainly.

Galatians 3:2-3
[FONT=&quot]2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Since God is a Spirit and we that worship Him worship Him in Spirit and in Truth do you think we can be tricked into going back to working at the law instead of continuing in the Spirit?

Do you understand scripture? Do you understand that this simple declaration of Galatians 3:3 shows you and all the followers of hrm that you follow your own foolishness? I suppose if you understood you would probably stop doing it...

You think that by following your carnal understanding of the law that it makes you not like the lawless. This is incorrect. But you don't even have basic understanding of scripture so how could you possibly know?

Pointless. Asking the blind if they can see. How do you tell a blind person who thinks he can see that he is really blind? Is it mean to explain it or is it an act of love?

Everything the Lord Jesus Christ does for us is a miracle of Grace and Mercy...


[/FONT]

 

[MacBestus]

well... to me it's obvious that buying and using electricity on the Sabbath is wrong. When I told this to roots folks, they said I was acting like a Pharisee.

it looks to me like appealing to the obvious just moves the question to Obvious to who? to which individual?

If you just study Torah. And do not add anything. It is obvious to anybody. Electricity is not fire. And as shown the fire is a work fire. All this needless adding is what pharisees do.

 

[MacBestus]

If you don't understand the plain meaning of scriptures I suppose you could take any word in the scriptures you want and twist it to mean anything you want it to.

I told you what it meant, using the scriptures it was contained in. Very simple. We don't need to argue over what your opinion of what is lawless or what is wicked. The bible tells us very plainly.

Galatians 3:2-3
[FONT=&quot]2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Since God is a Spirit and we that worship Him worship Him in Spirit and in Truth do you think we can be tricked into going back to working at the law instead of continuing in the Spirit?

Do you understand scripture? Do you understand that this simple declaration of Galatians 3:3 shows you and all the followers of hrm that you follow your own foolishness? I suppose if you understood you would probably stop doing it...

You think that by following your carnal understanding of the law that it makes you not like the lawless. This is incorrect. But you don't even have basic understanding of scripture so how could you possibly know?

Pointless. Asking the blind if they can see. How do you tell a blind person who thinks he can see that he is really blind? Is it mean to explain it or is it an act of love?

Everything the Lord Jesus Christ does for us is a miracle of Grace and Mercy...


[/FONT]

So you seek to make paul contradict himself.

So you avoid the thorny parts of scripture.

So you choose your bible translation by the one that agrees with you theology.

So you deny the veracity of Strongs and Thayers.

So you call apparent a word that is translated differently in different versions.

So you negate yourself as a scholar.

So you negate any relevance to your argument.

 

[sparty-g]

well... to me it's obvious that buying and using electricity on the Sabbath is wrong. When I told this to roots folks, they said I was acting like a Pharisee.

it looks to me like appealing to the obvious just moves the question to Obvious to who? to which individual?

Hi Dan. I'm not saying you're doing this, but I think it's foolish to assert that none of the Torah commands have plain sense, obvious applications. Yes, some are less precise in their initial giving (e.g., honor your mother and father), but others are more precise (e.g., concerning unclean animals, you must not eat their meat). For the less precise ones, we might ask ourselves, for example, "How does one honor their mother and father?" -- and for these less precise ones, sometimes they are discussed further or have citable examples elsewhere in the Scriptures, which reveal more precise applications. Concerning eating unclean meats: eating unclean meats means eating unclean meats -- don't do it. The pig is listed as an unclean animal. The command says not to eat its meat. That means don't go to Denny's, order up a plate of bacon, and chow it down. This is a very obvious violation of the command. If that's not obvious to a person, then that's a problem of basic understanding with the person, not with the command. That person should pray and consult the counsel of others. As I previously mentioned, further application details should be considered and worked out over time.

On the Sabbath day, you skipped over what I would argue is the most fundamental aspect of it: which day of the week is the Sabbath day? The Scriptures make it plainly obvious that it is the seventh day of the week. Next, Ex. 20:8-11 says to remember it, keep it holy, don't do any laborious work, rest. The start of observing this command would be to recognize the proper day (the seventh day), and then begin doing what Ex. 20:8-11 says. There will inevitably be questions about what those directives mean, but the Scriptures cite further examples of this in practice, and you're at a good starting point if you at least recognize the need to keep the command and that the Sabbath is the seventh day. Now it's up to you to consult Scripture, the Holy Spirit, other people knowledgeable in the Scriptures, etc., and work it out with the Lord. Avoiding wage-labor in order to rest is a commonly accepted fulfillment, as is gathering on the Sabbath day with brothers and sisters in faith to worship God, read and discuss the Scriptures, etc. This seemed to be the habitual practice of the Messiah and His disciples, so you're standing on solid ground.

If you come to believe that using electricity on the Sabbath is a sin, then do what you are led to do in response (avoid using it?) while understanding that this particular practice of how to observe the Sabbath day is not universally shared among Torah observers, and is actually probably in the extreme minority. This is fine -- it's why we are supposed to reason together as brothers and sisters -- and disagreements among the body of believers is not a valid reason to give up on keeping the command altogether. This is a pervasive fallacy rampant in the non-Torah-observant crowd: if the Torah commands cannot be kept perfectly, then no attempt should be made at all. The same argument could be made about our Christian walk in general, but we press on in faith regardless. The same with the Torah commands -- learn and grow over time. You're in a lot different position than the person who will not even recognize the seventh day as the Sabbath nor make any consideration about how to fulfill the command to remember it, keep it holy, abstain from laborious work, and rest. Once you cross that line, welcome to Sabbath keeping, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can do whatever you want on Sabbath and still be somehow observing. That would be dishonest and actually avoiding recognizing and keeping it.

 

[Grandpa]

So you seek to make paul contradict himself.

Paul contradicts you, not himself.

So you avoid the thorny parts of scripture.

I explained scripture to you. You would rather make up your own definition of what words mean...

So you choose your bible translation by the one that agrees with you theology.

The KJV is the one I use. Probably the least biased of all, imo.

So you deny the veracity of Strongs and Thayers.

I like Strongs. But Strongs isn't the HOLY SPIRIT.

So you call apparent a word that is translated differently in different versions.

I would stick with the KJV. Less confusion that way.

So you negate yourself as a scholar.

If a person uses the Greek and Strongs to misrepresent and twist scripture and calls that scholarship then yes I gladly do.

So you negate any relevance to your argument.

It must be frustrating not understanding scripture. All you need to do is grow in Grace and in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Just like the verse tells you that you've been trying to twist to mean something else.

Galatians 3:3 [FONT=&quot]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[/FONT]I suppose that is the biggest weakness of hrm, being foolish and pretending its wise. And trying to persuade Christians that it is in fact not foolish.

Real Christianity is against a carnal jewish system in all points, isn't it? I see why the Pharisees were so upset. The top biblical "scholars" of their time.

 

[Dan_473]

Everything we are taught in Acts and the Epistles are views shared or worked out together by disciples, based on the old testament and the testimony of Messiah. They clarified it amongst themselves. We were given the example of how it worked in the letter to Galations/Jerusalem Council event
The Pharisees raised a ruckus based on misunderstanding. They brought it to council. Consensus was reached.

Note that they didnt just trust the majority they took it to Scripture and Messiah and ended up taking what appears to be the minority opinion among Jews who grew up with Talmudic rules.

so then are the things that were worked out all recorded in scripture? or were they things in addition to what we read in Scripture?

 

[Dan_473]

I don't know any hebrew roots who think its ok to buy and sell on Sabbath. As to Electricity. It is not forbidden in and of itself. And the workers have to be there for safety. I do not see how it would violate Torah...

to me it's obvious that as one's electric meter turns, that's buying electricity just as surely as the numbers turning on the gas pump as one fills a car.

I think far fewer workers would be needed if only emergency power was used.

it's obvious to me that it's wrong. Should I do it? Shall I also act as judge for other people in this matter?

 

[9507]

Here's a question:

Where in the Scriptures was the Sabbath ever changed?

 

[Dan_473]

If you just study Torah. And do not add anything. It is obvious to anybody. Electricity is not fire. And as shown the fire is a work fire. All this needless adding is what pharisees do.

I have studied Torah.... it led me to this conclusion
I'm not saying electricity is fire (though, fire is usually used to generate it).

what is obvious to anybody isn't the same for each person.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan. I'm not saying you're doing this, but I think it's foolish to assert that none of the Torah commands have plain sense, obvious applications. Yes, some are less precise in their initial giving (e.g., honor your mother and father), but others are more precise (e.g., concerning unclean animals, you must not eat their meat). For the less precise ones, we might ask ourselves, for example, "How does one honor their mother and father?" -- and for these less precise ones, sometimes they are discussed further or have citable examples elsewhere in the Scriptures, which reveal more precise applications. Concerning eating unclean meats: eating unclean meats means eating unclean meats -- don't do it. The pig is listed as an unclean animal. The command says not to eat its meat. That means don't go to Denny's, order up a plate of bacon, and chow it down. This is a very obvious violation of the command. If that's not obvious to a person, then that's a problem of basic understanding with the person, not with the command. That person should pray and consult the counsel of others. As I previously mentioned, further application details should be considered and worked out over time.

On the Sabbath day, you skipped over what I would argue is the most fundamental aspect of it: which day of the week is the Sabbath day? The Scriptures make it plainly obvious that it is the seventh day of the week. Next, Ex. 20:8-11 says to remember it, keep it holy, don't do any laborious work, rest. The start of observing this command would be to recognize the proper day (the seventh day), and then begin doing what Ex. 20:8-11 says. There will inevitably be questions about what those directives mean, but the Scriptures cite further examples of this in practice, and you're at a good starting point if you at least recognize the need to keep the command and that the Sabbath is the seventh day. Now it's up to you to consult Scripture, the Holy Spirit, other people knowledgeable in the Scriptures, etc., and work it out with the Lord. Avoiding wage-labor in order to rest is a commonly accepted fulfillment, as is gathering on the Sabbath day with brothers and sisters in faith to worship God, read and discuss the Scriptures, etc. This seemed to be the habitual practice of the Messiah and His disciples, so you're standing on solid ground.

If you come to believe that using electricity on the Sabbath is a sin, then do what you are led to do in response (avoid using it?) while understanding that this particular practice of how to observe the Sabbath day is not universally shared among Torah observers, and is actually probably in the extreme minority. This is fine -- it's why we are supposed to reason together as brothers and sisters -- and disagreements among the body of believers is not a valid reason to give up on keeping the command altogether. This is a pervasive fallacy rampant in the non-Torah-observant crowd: if the Torah commands cannot be kept perfectly, then no attempt should be made at all. The same argument could be made about our Christian walk in general, but we press on in faith regardless. The same with the Torah commands -- learn and grow over time. You're in a lot different position than the person who will not even recognize the seventh day as the Sabbath nor make any consideration about how to fulfill the command to remember it, keep it holy, abstain from laborious work, and rest. Once you cross that line, welcome to Sabbath keeping, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can do whatever you want on Sabbath and still be somehow observing. That would be dishonest and actually avoiding recognizing and keeping it.

(I don't attempt to answer every question in long posts. I usually pick out one that seems most edifying to talk about)

I remember the seventh day and keep it holy.




'Now it's up to you to consult Scripture, the Holy Spirit, other people knowledgeable in the Scriptures, etc., and work it out with the Lord.'

yes, and that's what I intended as main thesis of the op.

 

[Dan_473]

Here's a question:

Where in the Scriptures was the Sabbath ever changed?

Hi 9507, welcome to CC!