"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

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FreeNChrist

Guest
#41
Sounds like the perfect verse to misuse and abuse to justify all sorts of sin. Could a person who indulges in sexual immorality use the same verse to support their lifestyle? "Well, it's permissible for me, but not the best choice for me to make, but it is my choice to make in the end and I won't be judged either way." That's basically the logic you're trying to use to apply this verse to the dietary commands (or, even more extreme, you're using this in response to my question about whether or not consuming human flesh and drinking goblets of blood is permissible -- that it is permissible but not beneficial, but technically you can do it if you want).

In fact, that particular citation of that verse is found in a section of verses dealing with sexual immorality, and Paul's directive is to flee from sexual immorality (v. 18a). But we don't need Paul to tell us this here -- it's written throughout the Scriptures that sexual immorality is a sin. So no, sexual immorality is not "permissible but not beneficial" -- God does not permit sexual immorality. Only the most extreme hyper-grace person I can think of would argue that sexual immorality is permissible for the believer -- this would be one who believes that a Christian can basically live any way he or she wants, though some things we do are "not in our best interest" (or "not true expressions of Jesus in us" or whatever their popular phrases they use these days to avoid talking directly about sin), but in the end we are saved either way, so do what you want. They lack the understanding of the difference between "permissible but still forgiven by God's grace and mercy" (wrong thinking) and "an act of disobedient sin but still forgiven by God's grace and mercy" (right thinking). And repentance is the next step.

By the way, many commentaries interpret "everything is permissible for me" as a Corinthian slogan or misunderstanding that Paul is arguing against, not supporting. I.e., "You say that 'everything is permissible' -- but I tell you that you're wrong. For example, sex was created by God to be good but it can be perverted into sin, which you must not do." Bible.org has the following, which I found thought-provoking:

"Freedom does not mean the absence of constraints or moral absolutes. Suppose a skydiver at 10,000 feet announces to the rest of the group, “I’m not using a parachute this time. I want freedom!” The fact is that a skydiver is constrained by a greater law—the law of gravity. But when the skydiver chooses the “constraint” of the parachute, he is free to enjoy the exhilaration. God’s moral laws act the same way: they restrain, but they are absolutely necessary to enjoy the exhilaration of real freedom."

The person in the example above can pursue their "freedom" all they want, but it will lead to their death. Likewise, I will argue that we are constrained by God's Torah-Law, which is to our benefit. Reckless pursuit of "freedom" absent honoring the constraints that God has given will lead to our "death", for the wages of sin are death. In fact, this message is entirely consistent with Scripture -- that true freedom is found in following God's Torah-Law: "I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts" (Psalm 119:45, NIV). I find it a great travesty that many Christians have twisted this by concluding that true "freedom" is from God's Torah-Law instead of walking in accordance with it.
Guess we know where your mind is, eh?
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#42
I apologize -- my last sentence there is potentially confusing in its wording. What I mean when I say "freedom is from God's Torah-Law" is the argument of many Christians that freedom is being free from God's Torah-Law, i.e., freedom is found in walking outside of God's Torah-Law, ignoring it, not keeping it, etc. I believe that Scripture teaches the opposite, that freedom is found in walking in accordance with God's Torah-Law, which should be the result as we walk first with Messiah Yeshua-Jesus and are led by the Holy Spirit to study God's Word and hear His voice.
"So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man." Rom. 7:3

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." Rom. 8:2
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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#44
Hi Dan. And, in general, I don't confront people about what they're eating. But if someone eats human flesh or drinks goblets of blood in my presence, then I'm sorry, but we won't be able to have fellowship. As for what you have decided, that seems consistent with Paul's advice in Rom. 14 -- if you think us Torah-observant folks are the weaker brothers and sisters by our choice to follow God's dietary commands, then abstaining from eating those things around us is in accordance with his advice -- though, honestly, I think most Torah-observant folks are accustomed to being around people who eat the meat of unclean animals, and don't mind it either way. Regardless, thanks for your willingness to accommodate in this manner.
I was thinking of this part

1 CORINTHIANS 10:28 But if someone says to you, This has been offered in sacrifice, then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience—


so, if someone tells you a particular food is unclean, it seems reasonable not to eat it in their presence.



if I were visiting with a group of cannibals, I would not be offended if they had human blood in their food.

after all, I have no qualms about putting human blood in my veins.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
#45
[h=1]"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." Heb. 8:6[/h]
I think you need to get out of the habit of plucking single verses out of context to hang your walk on.

Let's examine the Hebrews verses that seem to confuse the you regarding the new covenant:

Hebrews 8:6**But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

This is the KJV version. I do not know what version you got your quote from. Probably some american standard version. Taken out of context in this version I can see how you would be confused.

It is really plain if we take it back to the Greek. But that is not really necessary as you can keep reading and pick it up in context.


Hebrews 8:7**For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

*8**For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith*יהוה, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

*9**Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith*יהוה.

*10**For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith*יהוה; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them Elohim, and they shall be to me a people:

*11**And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know ye*יהוה: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

*12**For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

*13**In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Nothing here indicates the new covenant is already in effect. And the writer of Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah 31, showing with whom the covenant is made -- the House of Israel and Judah. The fault with the first covenant is that the people strayed from it. So YHWH will renew the first covenant by writing Torah on their hearts this time and not on paper. Or even calling it New is fine as the word can mean either and does not change the meaning whichever is used.

Lets look at verse 13

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

This verse comes at the conclusion of *two whole chapters* devoted to showing the superiority of Yeshua's Melchizedek priesthood to that of our earthly Levitical priesthood. So what is 'ready to vanish' must be taken in the context of what has just been discussed! It is the earthly temple and the earthly priesthood ready to vanish, to be rendered inoperational (as did occur a few years later in 70 CE). What is about to vanish away here is NOT Torah; it can only mean the just-discussed the temple & associated priesthood. Why?*"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Luke 16:17*Have heaven and earth ended?

And even if it were the covenants being spoken of here, The verse plainly says that it is getting old and READY To VANISH. Meaning at this point. After Messiahs Sacrifice. It still had not ended.

Rendering your interpretation of verse 6 in error

But just in case this isn't enough for any hardened hearts. Let's look at that verse 6 again.

Here is the verse as you posted it.

"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which*has been enacted*on better promises."*Heb. 8:6

Since the language style here uses the past tense in formal structure. Rarely used in modern conversation. Let us take A look at the single Greek word translated as "has been enacted."

G3549

Original:*νομοθετέω

Transliteration:*nomotheteō

Phonetic:*nom-oth-et-eh'-o

Thayer Definition:

to enact laws laws are enacted or prescribed for one, to be legislated for, furnished with laws to sanction by law, enact

Origin: from*G3550

TDNT entry: 22:10,6

Part(s) of speech: Verb

Strong's Definition: From*G3550; to*legislate, that is, (passively) to*have*(the Mosaic)*enactments injoined,*be sanctioned*(by them): - establish, receive the law.

So he gives us the law in a better way.

Did you have another verse? Or was this your whole argument?
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#46
I think you need to get out of the habit of plucking single verses out of context to hang your walk on.

Let's examine the Hebrews verses that seem to confuse the you regarding the new covenant:

Hebrews 8:6**But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

This is the KJV version. I do not know what version you got your quote from. Probably some american standard version. Taken out of context in this version I can see how you would be confused.

It is really plain if we take it back to the Greek. But that is not really necessary as you can keep reading and pick it up in context.


Hebrews 8:7**For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

*8**For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith*יהוה, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

*9**Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith*יהוה.

*10**For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith*יהוה; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them Elohim, and they shall be to me a people:

*11**And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know ye*יהוה: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

*12**For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

*13**In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Nothing here indicates the new covenant is already in effect. And the writer of Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah 31, showing with whom the covenant is made -- the House of Israel and Judah. The fault with the first covenant is that the people strayed from it. So YHWH will renew the first covenant by writing Torah on their hearts this time and not on paper. Or even calling it New is fine as the word can mean either and does not change the meaning whichever is used.

Lets look at verse 13

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

This verse comes at the conclusion of *two whole chapters* devoted to showing the superiority of Yeshua's Melchizedek priesthood to that of our earthly Levitical priesthood. So what is 'ready to vanish' must be taken in the context of what has just been discussed! It is the earthly temple and the earthly priesthood ready to vanish, to be rendered inoperational (as did occur a few years later in 70 CE). What is about to vanish away here is NOT Torah; it can only mean the just-discussed the temple & associated priesthood. Why?*"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Luke 16:17*Have heaven and earth ended?

And even if it were the covenants being spoken of here, The verse plainly says that it is getting old and READY To VANISH. Meaning at this point. After Messiahs Sacrifice. It still had not ended.

Rendering your interpretation of verse 6 in error

But just in case this isn't enough for any hardened hearts. Let's look at that verse 6 again.

Here is the verse as you posted it.

"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which*has been enacted*on better promises."*Heb. 8:6

Since the language style here uses the past tense in formal structure. Rarely used in modern conversation. Let us take A look at the single Greek word translated as "has been enacted."

G3549

Original:*νομοθετέω

Transliteration:*nomotheteō

Phonetic:*nom-oth-et-eh'-o

Thayer Definition:

to enact laws laws are enacted or prescribed for one, to be legislated for, furnished with laws to sanction by law, enact

Origin: from*G3550

TDNT entry: 22:10,6

Part(s) of speech: Verb

Strong's Definition: From*G3550; to*legislate, that is, (passively) to*have*(the Mosaic)*enactments injoined,*be sanctioned*(by them): - establish, receive the law.

So he gives us the law in a better way.

Did you have another verse? Or was this your whole argument?

For somebody who says they don't say that, you sure sound like your saying that.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
#47
For somebody who says they don't say that, you sure sound like your saying that.
Lol. What I said is "I don't say this the bible does." then I proved it with some verses. You gave me back a single verse out of context. I gave the following verses to provide context. And showed you your misinterpreted verse both by context and definition by providing both strongs and thayers definitions. If you can prove the statement wrong please do so with chapter and verse...so we can all learn.

One liners are not biblical meat.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#48
Lol. What I said is "I don't say this the bible does." then I proved it with some verses. You gave me back a single verse out of context. I gave the following verses to provide context. And showed you your misinterpreted verse both by context and definition by providing both strongs and thayers definitions. If you can prove the statement wrong please do so with chapter and verse...so we can all learn.

One liners are not biblical meat.
That certainly explains much. When your premise is off, as yours is, of course everything you build on it will necessarily be off as well. Until you correct your premise, there is nowhere for you to go but wrong. That's just the way it is.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
#49
That certainly explains much. When your premise is off, as yours is, of course everything you build on it will necessarily be off as well. Until you correct your premise, there is nowhere for you to go but wrong. That's just the way it is.
Lol. You do not have anything but opinion. I have shown my "off base" premise in muliple bible books in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Backed it with two concordances. You offer one verse out of context and say I am off base.

Please show me how I am wrong. Or is opinion all you have?
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
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#50
I have no qualms about putting human blood in my veins.
[h=3]Leviticus 17:11 (KJV)[/h]
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make
an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


Genesis 9:4 (KJV)


But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
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63
#51
Are you really trying to say that the New Covenant has not already come???
the old covenent, Israel was married to the Eternal.

We are not married yet-but a bride to be ,
we are begotten sons - but not yet born into spirit,
we are heirs to the Kingdom- but not yet inheriated.

When Christ comes to usher in the new covenent.

when born into the Kingdom, we will see Him as he is.
an internal[forever] inheritance-as immortal, incoruptiable beings
 
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M

MacBestus

Guest
#52
the old covenent, Israel was married to the Eternal.

We are not married yet-but a bride to be ,
we are begotten sons - but not yet born into spirit,
we are heirs to the Kingdom- but not yet inheriated.

when born into the Kingdom, we will see Him as he is.
internal[forever] inheritance-as immortal, incoruptiable beings
Obviously the apostles agreed with you. In Acts 15:20. They listed the four rules for fellowship. Two of the four related to diet. One was blood.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
#53
Obviously the apostles agreed with you. In Acts 15:20. They listed the four rules for fellowship. Two of the four related to diet. One was blood.
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. -- Acts 15:20 (NIV)

If you consider "blood" to be the consumption of blood, then I see three of four being related to diet: foods polluted by idols, meat of strangled animals, and consumption of blood. Do you see this differently?

And, of course, sexual immorality isn't open to personal interpretation, but God's Word (including the Torah-Law commands revealed through Moses) set the standard.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
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#54
They listed the four rules for fellowship.


Matthew 4:4 (KJV)

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by everyword that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.



Luke 4:4 (KJV)

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man
shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


Deuteronomy 8:3 (KJV)

And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou
knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth
notlive by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth manlive.


2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#55
Obviously the apostles agreed with you. In Acts 15:20. They listed the four rules for fellowship. Two of the four related to diet. One was blood.
Hello MacBestus,

Acts 15:20 was in answer to the Pharisee group who were claiming that the Gentile believers had to be circumcised and made to observe the law of Moses. The answer to that was "No!" We are saved by grace through faith apart from works. Believers in Christ have died to the law, including the food law. For the law is what gives sin its power and the powers of darkness their ammunition against us. For the law brings wrath and condemnation when it is broken. Where there is no law, there can be no transgression of it. Those who are in Christ are not under the written code and regulations of the law, but follow Christ and are led by the Spirit of God. But we should use this freedom for righteousness sake, to glorify God.
 
M

MacBestus

Guest
#56
Im with you. 100%
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#57
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
#59
[h=3]Leviticus 17:11 (KJV)[/h]
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make
an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


Genesis 9:4 (KJV)


But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Great verses!

THE ACTS 15:20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled,

and from blood.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
#60
Ahwatukee,

I like your signature