"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

[MacBestus]

Hello MacBestus,

Acts 15:20 was in answer to the Pharisee group who were claiming that the Gentile believers had to be circumcised and made to observe the law of Moses. The answer to that was "No!" We are saved by grace through faith apart from works. Believers in Christ have died to the law, including the food law. For the law is what gives sin its power and the powers of darkness their ammunition against us. For the law brings wrath and condemnation when it is broken. Where there is no law, there can be no transgression of it. Those who are in Christ are not under the written code and regulations of the law, but follow Christ and are led by the Spirit of God. But we should use this freedom for righteousness sake, to glorify God.

Hello back at you!

I'm going to put quotes around what you said so we can have a conversation. The quote system is beyond my big old fingers and my phones small screen. I hope you don't mind.

You said:
"Acts 15:20 was in answer to the Pharisee group who were claiming that the Gentile believers had to be circumcised and made to observe the law of Moses. The answer to that was "No!" "

Your statement is partially accurate. The circumcision party was a group in the first century who believed that new believers needed to be circumcised to fellowship and be saved. They also felt the need to hold them to Jewish Law (talmud) which Messiah spoke against. And also the law of Moses. In that order.

The fact that they were Pharisees shows they thought the Talmud outranked the Torah. The groups of Observant Jews today that claim Pharisee Origin make the same claim. As does the Talmud itself.

These are the Judaizers who pushed the religion of the Jews over YHWH's laws.

In the Jerusalem Council this was all hashed out and the conclusions reached have served to stand as the rules for all new Converts to Messiah since that time. Galatia was the place of question. But the question was answered for all new believers. Not just the Galatians.

If we look at Acts 15 this is plainly explained.

Acts 15:*17**That the residue of men might seek after*יהוה, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith*יהוה, who doeth all these things.

(This is to all the Gentiles called to Messiah. Not just the Ones in this incident)

*18**Known unto*יהוה*are all his works from the beginning of the world.

(YHWH knows what he has said and done since the dawn of time)

*19**Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to*יהוה:

(Therefore the judgement of the apostles was not to give them too much right out of the box. Set them up for failure. Imagine showing up at a new church and being told circumcision was needed to enter...

Plenty of folks would have laughed and walked away and never learned the Masters teaching.)

*20**But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

(These four rules are handed to new believers to begin fellowshipping note dietary rules are included. And remember we re told these are for all new believers a couple verses back.)

*21**For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

(The new believers will pick up the rest of Torah listening to the readings on Shabbat.)

I know most churches today don't hold to all this. But the apostles did. And they recorded it. For us to follow.

you said:
"We are saved by grace through faith apart from works"

HalleluYah! This is true. Completely. No man can buy his way into Salvation. And I have never met a Torah keeping follower of Messiah who taught differently.

Messianics and HRM are Grace doctrines. Salvation is a free gift. We do not follow Torah to be saved but because we are saved.

1 John 3:4**Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law

Romans 6:1**What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that Grace may abound?

*2**By no means. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?



Or as Messiah put it:

Matthew 5:16**Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

*17**Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

*18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

*19**Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Salvation is by Grace. But reward is by merit.

Faith without works is dead.

So we seek to glorify our father as Messiah instructed. We seek to walk the way he and the apostles walked and instructed.

We know we cannot live a sin free life, but we try. So that we bring Glory to HIM. But we are thankful for Messiahs Grace when we inevitably fail.

This belief is summed up best by Messiah when he spoke to the woman taken in adultety.

John 8:9**And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Yahushua was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

*10**When Yahushua had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

*11**She said, No man, Sir. And Yahushua said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

That is the Messiahs Grace teaching.

I Forgive you. Go forth and sin no more.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Hello back at you!

I'm going to put quotes around what you said so we can have a conversation. The quote system is beyond my big old fingers and my phones small screen. I hope you don't mind.

You said:
"Acts 15:20 was in answer to the Pharisee group who were claiming that the Gentile believers had to be circumcised and made to observe the law of Moses. The answer to that was "No!" "

Your statement is partially accurate. The circumcision party was a group in the first century who believed that new believers needed to be circumcised to fellowship and be saved. They also felt the need to hold them to Jewish Law (talmud) which Messiah spoke against. And also the law of Moses. In that order.

The fact that they were Pharisees shows they thought the Talmud outranked the Torah. The groups of Observant Jews today that claim Pharisee Origin make the same claim. As does the Talmud itself.

These are the Judaizers who pushed the religion of the Jews over YHWH's laws.

In the Jerusalem Council this was all hashed out and the conclusions reached have served to stand as the rules for all new Converts to Messiah since that time. Galatia was the place of question. But the question was answered for all new believers. Not just the Galatians.

If we look at Acts 15 this is plainly explained.

Acts 15:*17**That the residue of men might seek after*יהוה, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith*יהוה, who doeth all these things.

(This is to all the Gentiles called to Messiah. Not just the Ones in this incident)

*18**Known unto*יהוה*are all his works from the beginning of the world.

(YHWH knows what he has said and done since the dawn of time)

*19**Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to*יהוה:

(Therefore the judgement of the apostles was not to give them too much right out of the box. Set them up for failure. Imagine showing up at a new church and being told circumcision was needed to enter...

Plenty of folks would have laughed and walked away and never learned the Masters teaching.)

*20**But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

(These four rules are handed to new believers to begin fellowshipping note dietary rules are included. And remember we re told these are for all new believers a couple verses back.)

*21**For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

(The new believers will pick up the rest of Torah listening to the readings on Shabbat.)

I know most churches today don't hold to all this. But the apostles did. And they recorded it. For us to follow.

you said:
"We are saved by grace through faith apart from works"

HalleluYah! This is true. Completely. No man can buy his way into Salvation. And I have never met a Torah keeping follower of Messiah who taught differently.

Messianics and HRM are Grace doctrines. Salvation is a free gift. We do not follow Torah to be saved but because we are saved.

1 John 3:4**Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law

Romans 6:1**What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that Grace may abound?

*2**By no means. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?



Or as Messiah put it:

Matthew 5:16**Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

*17**Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

*18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

*19**Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Salvation is by Grace. But reward is by merit.

Faith without works is dead.

So we seek to glorify our father as Messiah instructed. We seek to walk the way he and the apostles walked and instructed.

We know we cannot live a sin free life, but we try. So that we bring Glory to HIM. But we are thankful for Messiahs Grace when we inevitably fail.

This belief is summed up best by Messiah when he spoke to the woman taken in adultety.

John 8:9**And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Yahushua was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

*10**When Yahushua had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

*11**She said, No man, Sir. And Yahushua said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

That is the Messiahs Grace teaching.

I Forgive you. Go forth and sin no more.

You really have replaced Jesus with the Torah then. It is good and fitting that ya'll don't call yourselves Christians.

 

[MacBestus]

You really have replaced Jesus with the Torah then. It is good and fitting that ya'll don't call yourselves Christians.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Why do you constantly lie about what people say or believe? Do you think you are serving his will? Do you think he is happy that you lie about his servants?

How can Torah replace Messiah? I serve Messiah. Your reviling of me for serving him in the way he asked to be served blesses me.

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

You judge me, yet lie about my beliefs. And mock me. You are now reaching the point where you say I am not even Christian and reject Messiah because I choose what the bible says over what YOU beleve:

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Your complaint against me is that i love messiah so much, I attempt to live as he lived. I try to obey his direction.

John 14:15**If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Who do you think dictated all the Torah direction on that mountain top to Moses?

You say i reject him with my obedience to him?

Matthew 7:*13**Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

*14**Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

*15**Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

*16**Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

*17**Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

*18**A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

*19**Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

*20**Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

You say lawlessness is good? That is your fruit? Let's continue listening to Messiah you think I am the one rejecting...

*21**Not every one that saith unto me, My Master, My Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The father gave us his will. It is called Torah.

*22**Many will say to me in that day, My master, my master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

*23**And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

And before you start saying the distillation command of love YHWH with your whole heart and love your Neighbor as yourself is a replacement for Torah. It IS Torah. It is the title of the contract (covenant) the ten commandments are the headings and the individual instructions fall under the ten commandments.

He even tell us that same distillation in Torah.

Deuteronomy 6;5**And thou shalt love*יהוה*thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am יהוה.

I forgive you for lying.

I am trying to serve Messiah.

I think you want to as well.

You have chosen to do it in the way churches have taught. I reject the false teachings of men and am following Messiah as he commanded in his book.

Peace be with you

 

[FreeNChrist]

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Why do you constantly lie about what people say or believe? Do you think you are serving his will? Do you think he is happy that you lie about his servants?

How can Torah replace Messiah? I serve Messiah. Your reviling of me for serving him in the way he asked to be served blesses me.

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

You judge me, yet lie about my beliefs. And mock me. You are now reaching the point where you say I am not even Christian and reject Messiah because I choose what the bible says over what YOU beleve:

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Your complaint against me is that i love messiah so much, I attempt to live as he lived. I try to obey his direction.

John 14:15**If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Who do you think dictated all the Torah direction on that mountain top to Moses?

You say i reject him with my obedience to him?

Matthew 7:*13**Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

*14**Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

*15**Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

*16**Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

*17**Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

*18**A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

*19**Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

*20**Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

You say lawlessness is good? That is your fruit? Let's continue listening to Messiah you think I am the one rejecting...

*21**Not every one that saith unto me, My Master, My Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The father gave us his will. It is called Torah.

*22**Many will say to me in that day, My master, my master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

*23**And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

And before you start saying the distillation command of love YHWH with your whole heart and love your Neighbor as yourself is a replacement for Torah. It IS Torah. It is the title of the contract (covenant) the ten commandments are the headings and the individual instructions fall under the ten commandments.

He even tell us that same distillation in Torah.

Deuteronomy 6;5**And thou shalt love*יהוה*thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am יהוה.

I forgive you for lying.

I am trying to serve Messiah.

I think you want to as well.

You have chosen to do it in the way churches have taught. I reject the false teachings of men and am following Messiah as he commanded in his book.

Peace be with you

Your own words convict you. You keep on following Torah. I'm gonna keep on following Jesus......because He saved me.

 

[MacBestus]

Your own words convict you. You keep on following Torah. I'm gonna keep on following Jesus......because He saved me.

Again you put the lie on me.

I keep Torah BECAUSE I follow Messiah Yahushua who saved us all.

James 2:17**Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

*18**Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

I forgive you your lie again

 

[MacBestus]

Your own words convict you. You keep on following Torah. I'm gonna keep on following Jesus......because He saved me.

I am continually giving you bible verses which prove my words and position. You rarely give them. And when you do it is usually one verse out of context. Easily discounted as proving your point by quoting it back with surrounding verses.

You cannot prove your anti scriptural position from scripture. So you are now just putting in avoidance insults.

Show your position from scripture. As I have done.

You won't because you can't. It is not in there as mine is. I have shown my position in the old and new testament. You verse pluck and ignore any verses given that counter your position with an insult rather than the word.

You say you follow Messiah. Yet you have not quoted him. My position has quoted him quite a lot.

Perhaps you should just read what he says a bit. Get a bible and read Messiahs own words.

You claim to follow him. Try and show my position in error with His words.

 

[sparty-g]

Your statement is partially accurate. The circumcision party was a group in the first century who believed that new believers needed to be circumcised to fellowship and be saved. They also felt the need to hold them to Jewish Law (talmud) which Messiah spoke against. And also the law of Moses. In that order.

The fact that they were Pharisees shows they thought the Talmud outranked the Torah. The groups of Observant Jews today that claim Pharisee Origin make the same claim. As does the Talmud itself.

These are the Judaizers who pushed the religion of the Jews over YHWH's laws.

In the Jerusalem Council this was all hashed out and the conclusions reached have served to stand as the rules for all new Converts to Messiah since that time. Galatia was the place of question. But the question was answered for all new believers. Not just the Galatians.

I agree that these particular Pharisee brothers were teaching that circumcision was a requirement prior to salvation and welcoming them in fellowship (see Acts 15:1). I think it's interesting in v. 5 that they expand their requirement to include keeping the Torah-Law. Though they were Pharisees, I can't jump to the same conclusion as you that this included Talmud. For even Paul in Acts 23:6 confirms in the present sense that he is a Pharisee, but I don't believe he kept or taught Talmud at that point. Either way, the matter at hand does not seem to be circumcision and keeping Torah-Law, per se, but the order of operations: these Pharisee brothers expected non-Jews to be circumcised and keep Torah-Law prior to being accepted as saved and allowed to fellowship with the other Jewish followers of Messiah Yeshua-Jesus. Peter says that's a yoke that they and their ancestors couldn't even bear, which is true: trust and salvation always came first, then the commands came after. God delivered (saved) the Israelites from Egypt, then gave them His Torah-Law after they put their trust in Him and accepted the covenant. Peter argues that the same standard should apply to the non-Jews, not some incredibly more difficult standard that the Jewish people themselves did not even have to keep. This is why in v. 11, Peter makes it a point to say that it is by grace that both the Jew and non-Jew are saved, not these works. The issue is what is done to become saved and welcomed into fellowship; the answer is trust to be saved by God's grace, then James gives four initial directives they must keep to help them depart their old lifestyle and be welcomed into fellowship. And, as you said, they would pick up the rest in the synagogues on the Sabbath and of course in fellowship with followers of Messiah Yeshua-Jesus. They would be saved and welcomed without first being circumcised and learning to keep all of God's Torah-Law. And, of course, anyone who relies on either circumcision or keeping God's Torah-Law to earn salvation is in serious error, for it is given by trust and grace, not doing these works. Obedience comes after.

HalleluYah! This is true. Completely. No man can buy his way into Salvation. And I have never met a Torah keeping follower of Messiah who taught differently.

Messianics and HRM are Grace doctrines. Salvation is a free gift. We do not follow Torah to be saved but because we are saved.

Salvation is by Grace. But reward is by merit.

Faith without works is dead.

So we seek to glorify our father as Messiah instructed. We seek to walk the way he and the apostles walked and instructed.

We know we cannot live a sin free life, but we try. So that we bring Glory to HIM. But we are thankful for Messiahs Grace when we inevitably fail.

This belief is summed up best by Messiah when he spoke to the woman taken in adultety.

That is the Messiahs Grace teaching.

I Forgive you. Go forth and sin no more.

Amen! Messianics and HRM are grace doctrines. Walking as Messiah walked, which includes study and application of God's Torah-Law, is our response to God's grace, mercy, and salvation, not the cause of it. Our beliefs are constantly misrepresented, though they are quite simple: Trust in Messiah Yeshua-Jesus, be saved by God's grace and mercy, be filled with and led by the Holy Spirit, study to show oneself approved unto God, learn to walk as Messiah Yeshua-Jesus walked.

Or to distill it even further, as you summarize Messiah Yeshua-Jesus' conversation with the woman caught in adultery: Be forgiven, and go and sin no more.

 

[prove-all]

Hello Ahwatukee

so Acts 24:14 is after Acts 15:20

14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way,
which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers,

believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

 

[Grandpa]

Again you put the lie on me.

I keep Torah BECAUSE I follow Messiah Yahushua who saved us all.

James 2:17**Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

*18**Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

I forgive you your lie again

You can 't do both. Only one or the other.

Galatians 3:11-12
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

So you have to choose, working at the law or coming to Christ and receiving rest from your work. But you people have already made your choice, haven't you? Its whats known biblically as 'stiffnecked'.

How do people think it is possible to work at their understanding of law, or torah, and follow the Lord by faith? It amazes me how many try to come in and teach that have no real understanding. You would think you would learn what Christianity is first before trying to teach people.

Did you know that the law can't be followed carnally? You can't fulfill it by your strength and understanding. Did you know that is why there are so many "interpretations" on what it is to follow law, or torah, whichever word you want to use? Because every person thinks they have the correct understanding of how to carnally follow the law.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

If you want to follow the law you have to die to your work and understanding of it and abide in Christ, by faith. He is the one that grows the spiritual fruit of obedience. He personally Does it. Your understanding, nothing personal, is way too shallow and inept to come close to being able to perform what God wants. Mine too. That's why we don't rely on our own understanding.


If you try something and you fail what do you do? Try again. What if you have tried 50 times and failed every time. Wouldn't you try to find a different way to do it? One that you could succeed at? You are effectively teaching people how to fail and how to pretend that its not failure. There is a Real Way that guarantees Real Success. But you have to stop pretending that you are succeeding at your own way before you can come to this New Way. You have to walk in the light, which means being honest first and foremost.

Matthew 11:28-30


[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Again you put the lie on me.

I keep Torah BECAUSE I follow Messiah Yahushua who saved us all.

James 2:17**Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

*18**Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

I forgive you your lie again

Morning MacBestus,

You cannot keep the Law of Moses and be under grace, for they cancel each other out. Either you're under the law or under grace, but not both. Jesus appearing in the flesh and did for us what we could not do, which was meet the righteous requirements of the law perfectly and on our behalf. Jesus freed us from the law, for sin gets its power from the law and condemns us when we fail at it.

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. "

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."


"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit."

As believers we should not be trying to meet the righteous requirements of the law, but we should be trusting in Christ who provided salvation for us, fully and completely. I tell you the truth, if you go before the Lord proud of your attempt to keep the works of the law along side of Christ's fulfillment of it, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

By attempting to keep the works of the law you are attempting to gain favor with God by your own efforts and are therefore not trusting in Christ. We who are in Christ have been crucified with Him and have therefore died to the law.

You are using James 2:17 above, but James is not saying that we are saved by works. If it were by works then it would not be by grace that we are saved, but by our own efforts. In that case we would be working our way to heaven instead of trusting in Christ. Consider the man on the cross who was crucified with Christ when he said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And Jesus said to him "truly is say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." That man could not come down off the cross to be baptized or to do any good works, yet he was saved by his faith in Christ.

If you put yourself under the law, then you have to keep the entire law. And when you break it, you have broken the entire law. Jesus met the righteous requirements of the law, satisfying it because we could not and cannot meet its requirements. Why are you rebuilding what brings wrath and condemns us?

 

[Grace777x70]

Hello Ahwatukee

so Acts 24:14 is after Acts 15:20

14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way,
which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers,

believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

What Paul was believing is everything that the law and the prophets spoke about Christ. HRM extreme sects replace Christ for their law-keeping.

Luke 24:44 (NASB)
[SUP]44 [/SUP] Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."



Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

 

[prove-all]

[h=3]Philippians 2:12 (KJV)[/h]

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.​

 

[prove-all]

Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses when he first joined the church.
(And ironically, he's still being accused today.)

(Act 21:21) They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among
the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children
or live according to our customs.


These accusations were shown to be false.

(Acts 21:24) Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses,
so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth
in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

 

[prove-all]

Galatians 3:12 (KJV)
And the law is not of faith: but,
The man that doeth them shall live in them.



Ezekiel 20:11 (KJV)
And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments,
which if [a man] do, he [God]shall even live in them.

Ezekiel 20:13 (KJV)
But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness:
they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments,

which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths
they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon
them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:21 (KJV)
Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked
not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them,

which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths:
then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger
against them in the wilderness.


Leviticus 18:5 (KJV)
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments:
which if [a man do], he[God] shall live in them[that person]: I am the Lord.

Nehemiah 9:29 (KJV)
And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law:
yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned
against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them) and withdrew
the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Ahwatukee

so Acts 24:14 is after Acts 15:20

14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way,
which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers,

believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

Hello Prove-all,

If you read the entire context, Paul said the above demonstrating that the Law and the prophets were pointing to Christ, specifically Christ's resurrection from the dead. He wasn't saying those things as a proof that we are still under the law. If Paul was still preaching the law, why was his life still in danger. The answer is that he was preaching Christ, crucified, buried and resurrected, which is what the law and prophets taught.

 

[prove-all]

The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they
that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:



Fear ye not me? saith the Lord: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have
placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it:
and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail;
though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?


-

Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God,
and David their king; and shall [fear the Lord] and his goodness in the latter days.

-The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
and to depart from evil is understanding.

Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

He will bless them that fear the Lord, both small and great.

O fear the Lord, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

 

[sparty-g]

You really have replaced Jesus with the Torah then. It is good and fitting that ya'll don't call yourselves Christians.

Your own words convict you. You keep on following Torah. I'm gonna keep on following Jesus......because He saved me.

MacBestus can defend himself, but I don't find it improper for myself to give a response since you could levy the same charge against me, since he and I obviously share many of the same beliefs against which you are making your charges.

It is disappointing and unfair that you make these charges against us. We have repeatedly explained that our trust and hope is in Messiah Yeshua-Jesus and that we do not study Torah-Law to merit salvation, but do so because we are saved and want to understand Torah-Law the way that Messiah did and walk it the same way that He did. So it's unfair to say that we have "replaced Jesus with the Torah" -- He is there in our focus front and center! There would be absolutely no desire in us to study Torah-Law or walk as He walked if He was not the center of our focus! It would be just as unfair for us to say that some folks on this board have replaced Jesus with Paul. And trust me, many of us could easily build cases to argue that some folks here have put Paul's words over Messiah's words and have too much of a focus on Paul's writings over the gospels and very words of the Messiah. I won't do that because regardless of the esteem that some give Paul and his writings, I understand that they believe Messiah is the center of their focus. Why do you not show us that same courtesy? Or do you really want to get into a debate about who is focused more on the Messiah and esteeming His words above all others? I don't think that would be very profitable for any of us.

It's a little ironic that you are calling us out on not going by the term "Christian" (which, by the way, is not a consensus among Messianics and HRM -- I personally have no problem using the term to describe myself to other mainstream Christians). We generally mean it today to describe a follower of Messiah Yeshua-Jesus. Following on what I said in my previous paragraph, how are we not "Christians" (by the common definition of the word) when our stated desire is to follow Him and highly esteem His words, to walk as He walked? The irony is that I have seen non-Torah-observant folks on this board (some who describe themselves as hyper-grace folks) straightforwardly admit that they do not aspire to walk as Messiah walked and view their understanding of Paul's writings (as well as Peter and James -- basically all post-Gospel NT writings) as more relevant to the Christian today than the Messiah's words. And yet, we Messianics and HRM are charged as the ones not suited for the term "Christian"? Can we make a similar charge against those other folks and call them "Paulians"? No, that wouldn't be productive or beneficial at all.

Brother, I understand you are zealous to follow God and our Messiah -- so are we! So please, stop bringing the false charges against us and try to understand where we are coming from. Just because our beliefs don't align with your understanding of Scripture doesn't mean we have replaced Messiah Yeshua-Jesus with anything or are not desiring to follow Him. On Torah-Law, we have already said repeatedly that our trust and hope is not in the Torah-Law -- that is only in Messiah. And our study and application of the commands of the Torah-Law are a result of our desire to follow Him in the best way we can and believe is in accordance with His walk and the will of the Father as shown throughout the breadth of Scripture.

Blessings to you on your personal journey.

 

[Blik]

If you try something and you fail what do you do? Try again. What if you have tried 50 times and failed every time. Wouldn't you try to find a different way to do it? One that you could succeed at? You are effectively teaching people how to fail and how to pretend that its not failure. There is a Real Way that guarantees Real Success. But you have to stop pretending that you are succeeding at your own way before you can come to this New Way. You have to walk in the light, which means being honest first and foremost.

When we follow the light we follow Jesus in the new covenant. What the new covenant in and how we are to follow Jesus is explained in scripture. Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We are also told Christ will fulfill. We see He does that--Christi is the innocent blood there were only symbols of before, we are now the temple of God, Christ is the high priest, we have not only the words of the law in writing and on stone but in our hearts. what diet and circumcision were symbolic of and meant to remind us of spiritual laws are now told us in our spirit through the Holy Spirit. These things, in Christ's time on earth, were called Law of Moses and the prophets God gave scripture to wrote it in the language of the times. If we say it means the spiritual laws given to our hearts, the same ones given in Mt Sinai, we say we don't believe scripture. All scripture is from one God, God cannot disagree with God.

 

[prove-all]

Revelation 14:12 (KJV)

Here is the patience of the saints:

here are they that keep the commandments of God,

and the faith of Jesus.​

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses when he first joined the church.
(And ironically, he's still being accused today.)

(Act 21:21) They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among
the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children
or live according to our customs.


These accusations were shown to be false.

(Acts 21:24) Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses,
so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth
in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

He did that because he was told to do so by James and the other elders because of religious pressure - because it didn't take long for the Judaizers to come in and water down the gospel by bringing the law into it and defiling it with their leaven.

Look at the mess that this ill-advised "wisdom of man" created. The Lord needed to use Gentiles to rescue Paul from the Jewish religious people that were "zealous for the law of Moses."

The Jewish law-keepers that became believers were "zealous for the law". It didn't take them long to defile the gospel of the grace of Christ with their law-keeping requirements.

Acts 21:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

[SUP]21 [/SUP] and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

The truth is - Paul did say in Galatians that if they circumcised - they make the grace of God of no effect.

Galatians 5:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.