You can 't do both. Only one or the other.
Galatians 3:11-12
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
So you have to choose, working at the law or coming to Christ and receiving rest from your work. But you people have already made your choice, haven't you? Its whats known biblically as 'stiffnecked'.
How do people think it is possible to work at their understanding of law, or torah, and follow the Lord by faith? It amazes me how many try to come in and teach that have no real understanding. You would think you would learn what Christianity is first before trying to teach people.
Did you know that the law can't be followed carnally? You can't fulfill it by your strength and understanding. Did you know that is why there are so many "interpretations" on what it is to follow law, or torah, whichever word you want to use? Because every person thinks they have the correct understanding of how to carnally follow the law.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
If you want to follow the law you have to die to your work and understanding of it and abide in Christ, by faith. He is the one that grows the spiritual fruit of obedience. He personally Does it. Your understanding, nothing personal, is way too shallow and inept to come close to being able to perform what God wants. Mine too. That's why we don't rely on our own understanding.
If you try something and you fail what do you do? Try again. What if you have tried 50 times and failed every time. Wouldn't you try to find a different way to do it? One that you could succeed at? You are effectively teaching people how to fail and how to pretend that its not failure. There is a Real Way that guarantees Real Success. But you have to stop pretending that you are succeeding at your own way before you can come to this New Way. You have to walk in the light, which means being honest first and foremost.
Matthew 11:28-30
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Hello Grandpa!
You suggest we cannot serve Yahushua and attempt to keep Torah.
"You can 't do both. Only one or the other."
I would say it is more likely that you cannot do either only. Because one leads to the other.
I will ignore your misuse of Paul in general, as you have stated you believe your own definitions of words over all bible dictionaries and concordances. And speak only to your proof texts.
You offer:
Galatians 3:11-12
11*But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for,*The just shall live by faith.
12*And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
In this verse we are told that Paul is speaking to those who try to justify themselves through the law. I am justified by my faith in Messiah. I am not trying to buy my way in. I have faith in GRACE.
You continue;
"So you have to choose, working at the law or coming to Christ and receiving rest from your work. "
So your view is attempt to NOT sin and you are damned. Sin and be saved. Really?
1john 3:4**Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 3:4**By no means: yea, let*יהוה*be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
*5**But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of*יהוה, what shall we say? Is*יהוהunrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
*6**By no means: for then how shall He judge the world?
*7**For if the truth of*יהוה*hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
*8**And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Romans 3:31**Do we then make void the law through faith? By no means: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6:1**What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that favour may abound?
*2**By no means. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:8**Now if we be dead with the Messiah, we believe that we shall also live with him:
*9**Knowing that the Messiah being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
*10**For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto*יהוה.
*11**Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto*יהוהthrough Yahushua the Messiah our Saviour.
*12**Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
*13**Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto*יהוה, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto*יהוה.
Romans 7:7**What shall we say then? Is the law sin? By no means. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 7:12**Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:24**O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
*25**Thanks be to*יהוה*through Yahushua the Messiah our Saviour. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of*יהוה; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul speaks for himself. We are under grace. Should we break the law? YHWH forbid.
You go on:
"But you people have already made your choice, haven't you? Its whats known biblically as 'stiffnecked'."
I would say someone who follows the doctrine of continuing to sin after finding salvation is closer to that description. As far as making my choice, i will follow Messiah and Paul as they taught in the bible.
You continue:
"How do people think it is possible to work at their understanding of law, or torah, and follow the Lord by faith? "
it is really quite simple. No need for amazement. Live as Messiah lived and taught.
You continue:
"It amazes me how many try to come in and teach that have no real understanding. You would think you would learn what Christianity is first before trying to teach people.*"
Exactly! You should read that sentence again. Then read this one. It is Messiah speaking.
Matthew 5:*19**Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Notice you won't loose your salvation for lawlessness. Salvation is a free gift. You just will have a lesser reward. I am fairly certain Yahushua understood this better than Grandpa from the Internet, so you will excuse me if I choose his words over yours.
You continue:
"Did you know that the law can't be followed carnally? You can't fulfill it by your strength and understanding."
Yes. But you can try. Just like babies learn to walk by struggling and failing. Over and over. Hundreds of times just to roll over. Thousands of times to crawl. Thousands more to walk or run. In fact you never outgrow falling. By Your logic we should not encourage any baby to learn to walk. Some will figure it out, but we will tell them they are wrong to do so. This is your logic.
You go on: "Did you know that is why there are so many "interpretations" on what it is to follow law, or torah, whichever word you want to use? Because every person thinks they have the correct understanding of how to carnally follow the law."
And I reply there are even more interpretations on how to sin. We all have several. We are not perfect. THAT IS WHAT GRACE IS FOR. At least those trying to keep Torah in limited human ways are
To not sin.
Romans 7:14*For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Exactly! Perhaps you should read Romans straight through instead of looking for the verses that you can cling to for your dogma. It explains all this wonderfully.
You continue: "If you want to follow the law you have to die to your work and understanding of it and abide in Christ, by faith. He is the one that grows the spiritual fruit of obedience. He personally Does it."
So if we don't try and follow his path we will? Show me chapter and verse on that please.
You continue:" Your understanding, nothing personal, is way too shallow and inept to come close to being able to perform what God wants. Mine too. That's why we don't rely on our own understanding."
Amen
You go on:
"If you try something and you fail what do you do? Try again. What if you have tried 50 times and failed every time. Wouldn't you try to find a different way to do it? "
Some things are hard to learn. Walking, potty training, musical instruments, language, the list goes on and on. And when we learn these, we are not trying to be perfect at them for all we try be as perfect as possible. We are just happy to be as good as we can and try to be better.
You continue:
"One that you could succeed at? You are effectively teaching people how to fail and how to pretend that its not failure."
We get better through practice.
And as to "There is a Real Way that guarantees Real Success. But you have to stop pretending that you are succeeding at your own way before you can come to this New Way. You have to walk in the light, which means being honest first and foremost."
That is why I try to do and teach as Messiah did and taught, while looking forward to his return. While resting assured in his Grace providing my salvation. Living sinfully does not glorify Messiah.
