Calvinism - Total Depravity

[CoooCaw]

And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
(Matthew 13:23)
​

i need to know, how i can become good, deep soil, free from thorns, safe from birds ??

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)​

This is a very good and profound question -

it is NOT by speaking in tongues

it IS by studying God's word - ESPECIALLY when you have no appetite

One sermon per week does not cut it

 

[stonesoffire]

Why continually look back at what we were?

 

[HeGoesB4Me]

i would say that the 5 pint system (that i just had to look up) is the correct one. However, because God is purely self addressing He reserves the right for self discovery also which would allow Him the attribute to select or elect new persons at any time along the way. Life is dynamic and static. Lifes' answer is always, "For as much" or "For as many". Only those two. This is the core of of the creative part and also of the nature of faith itself. Calling those things that are not as though they are.

 

[HeGoesB4Me]

This is a very good and profound question -

it is NOT by speaking in tongues

it IS by studying God's word - ESPECIALLY when you have no appetite

One sermon per week does not cut it

Faith is the spiritual voice of God and Spirit in our inner hearing. Faith is of God and not of ourselves. Not our own voice.

When God speaks there is always manifestation on His part but if we don't move by it or change by it or we don't respond to the instruction then it will fall by the wayside. We move on it. We change by it in some way.

The Word of God comes to us but we need to change the Word into the Verb.

When the Bible says, "Not of works" pertaining to the flesh and our own ego or earthly wisdom that means that we do something or moved in some direction that was not based on His Voice and Spirit directing us.

In order to hear Him we have to stop all the noise and be still in our lives with Him. Be still and know I am God.

On a little deeper note. Form follows function and not the other way around. We cant make a form of an idol for example (from our own carnal thoughts) and say it will function some other way that is not in its nature. Gods word functions and then produces form. Its not the other way around. We cant create an idol and expect it to operate outside of its practical capacity.

Just keep one ear and eye on Him at all times while walking through the wilderness. That way we can respond to faith when it comes.

It's not our faith. It's His faith in us.

We can't see past our own condition to make any real healthy choice for ourselves or see past our own carnal mindset. This is why the Holy Spirit is the only solution. This is why receiving Jesus Christ (the personification of compassion itself) is the only way to survive the grave. Only the Holy Spirit which is the Power of the Resurrection can do that. Everything else is cannon fodder.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
(Matthew 13:23)
​

i need to know, how i can become good, deep soil, free from thorns, safe from birds ??

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)​

I know what you are saying,and I know GOD does all the work,but how does man even come to the light If he doesn't care about the light since Its the mans choice?

I wish I was more up on a scripture I could use to refute this doctrine of calvinism.

I just trust GOD when HE said whosoever will In John 3.

 

[HeGoesB4Me]

Why continually look back at what we were?

If we keep looking back and can't seem to stop then it is probably because something back there is not yet resolved.

It could be just some residual soot too.

 

[HeGoesB4Me]

I know what you are saying,and I know GOD does all the work,but how does man even come to the light If he doesn't care about the light since Its the mans choice?

I wish I was more up on a scripture I could use to refute this doctrine of calvinism.

I just trust GOD when HE said whosoever will In John 3.

God calls that person and they see beyond their own condition for a moment. How they want to respond to it is a different matter.

Also, we can all take responsibility for something. God gave us all that capacity to own what we know. No one is completely blind that they are injuring others. God will call on everyone to examine themselves. So no one is without excuse when it comes to having some measure of light in them to acknowledge their crimes.

 

[garee]

It's not our faith. It's His faith in us.

Exactly! If we offer our faith that is dead towards Him that would make it upside down

 

[posthuman]

God will not violate mans will and save a man against his will.

God will give man a will that chooses to glorify Him, because the will the man has in his natural state does not, and cannot do so.

For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
(Ezekiel 36:24-27)​

it is the Lord who does all these things.
redeemed. cleaned. a new heart. a new spirit. causing us to walk in Him. a new man.
born again, not by human descent or by strength, will or desire - but of God, of spirit

where in this prophecy is the caveat "if you first choose me" ?
but it says "this is not for your sake that I will do these things, but for the sake of my holy name"
not because i was special or clever or when i flipped the coin it landed on tails. but because He chose to show me mercy - so that i have every cause to thank Him, but He has no cause to be grateful to me; so that i have no reason to boast whatsoever in myself, but every reason to boast in Him

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God will give man a will that chooses to glorify Him, because the will the man has in his natural state does not, and cannot do so.

thats just an easy way (not offensive) to say God forces a man to believe him, while forcing others to reject him (because he did not give that man a heart that will say yes)

 

[Depleted]

Like i've said before, everyone think their take is so correct, and they are so important, that they have to have their own threads. Ego driven. Nothing said here couldn't have been said in the other divisive thread on the subject someone else started.

And that is your divisive take on the subject. Also ego driven.

Which, as it works out, goes along with the topic of the thread. By nature, we are ego-driven, which works out well for a definition of "total depravity."

 

[notuptome]

God will give man a will that chooses to glorify Him, because the will the man has in his natural state does not, and cannot do so.

For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
(Ezekiel 36:24-27)​

it is the Lord who does all these things.
redeemed. cleaned. a new heart. a new spirit. causing us to walk in Him. a new man.
born again, not by human descent or by strength, will or desire - but of God, of spirit

where in this prophecy is the caveat "if you first choose me" ?
but it says "this is not for your sake that I will do these things, but for the sake of my holy name"
not because i was special or clever or when i flipped the coin it landed on tails. but because He chose to show me mercy - so that i have every cause to thank Him, but He has no cause to be grateful to me; so that i have no reason to boast whatsoever in myself, but every reason to boast in Him

Don't confuse national election with personal election. God did not force Cain to accept the sin offering that lieth at the door in the matter of Cain's sacrifice being rejected by God. God accepted Abel's blood sacrifice because it was what God required of all men.

In the operation of grace it is not by merit but through the mercy of God. Election does not require merit but mercy.

Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

If you are a Calvinist do you believe that God will save you against your will? I know you cannot save yourself but will God force you to be saved if you are elect?


Calvinism cannot yield no self will and salvation by predetermination.



For the cause of Christ
Roger

In my case, I lean to the Calvinist position.

Your question of will God save me against my will, no He will not. He will change my will so I want to be saved by His Work and His Will.

Will God force me to be saved? I suppose He already has. I consider this a blessing and not some sort of trespass. I say thank you not how dare you...

What an odd concept to be indignant over...

 

[Grandpa]

another problem in people's minds is evangelism.

'why share the gospel with people whose fate is to reject it?' -- is the criticism, usually phrased a bit differently, admittedly..

for one thing, God chose the foolishness of preaching. another thing is the purpose of evangelism: is it to win souls or is it to find lost sheep? if man is totally unable to respond, then doing the work of an evangelist does not have as its goal one man convincing another to do something that he is unable to do. if this must be the work of the Father through the Spirit, then the evangelist is only facilitating the work of God by bringing the one thing that is missing: the word of God, which magnifies Christ. the purpose of an evangelist is to praise Jesus Christ in the hearing of people - and when He is lifted up, His sheep hear His voice.

so total inability leads to that the purpose of evangelism is to praise the Lord - not to convince, coerce, persuade, argue into, move, seduce or otherwise to 'win' souls; that is God's own work. the gospel of Christ preached is a call to His people and a condemnation to the Devil and his children, which we once were, but the Word entered into us and changed us.

so why share the gospel if it falls on deaf ears? because it praises God, and through it God calls His own to Himself. that people who believe this doctrine aren't interested in 'missions' or don't believe in evangelizing is a myth, and here is justification for it on the basis of total inability

1 Corinthians 1:23-29
[FONT=&quot]23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In my case, I lean to the Calvinist position.

Your question of will God save me against my will, no He will not. He will change my will so I want to be saved by His Work and His Will.

Will God force me to be saved? I suppose He already has. I consider this a blessing and not some sort of trespass. I say thank you not how dare you...

What an odd concept to be indignant over...

Now put yourself in the shoes of the unsaved person who was not given that opportunity you were given, even though God made you both guilty before you were even born. Then all the angels who witnessed what God did to them.

Can you say the same thing? I could not. Thats why I left the fatalistic view.

 

[Grandpa]

Now put yourself in the shoes of the unsaved person who was not given that opportunity you were given, even though God made you both guilty before you were even born. Then all the angels who witnessed what God did to them.

Can you say the same thing? I could not. Thats why I left the fatalistic view.

God Loved Jacob but hated Esau.

We don't exactly know why. We don't know the purpose behind it. We just know there is a purpose to all of it.


The bible says who is the clay to speak against the Potter? Why have you made me thus...?

 

[posthuman]

God Loved Jacob but hated Esau.

We don't exactly know why. We don't know the purpose behind it. We just know there is a purpose to all of it.

we do know something of the purpose of it:

And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her,
“THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
Just as it is written,
JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
(Romans 9:10-13)​

 

[posthuman]

we do know something of the purpose of it:

And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her,
“THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
Just as it is written,
JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
(Romans 9:10-13)​

because of Him who calls​

 

[posthuman]

I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them:
and they shall increase as they have increased.
(Zechariah 10:8)



​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God Loved Jacob but hated Esau.

We don't exactly know why. We don't know the purpose behind it. We just know there is a purpose to all of it.


The bible says who is the clay to speak against the Potter? Why have you made me thus...?

God spoke those words almost 400 years before Christ, in the book of malichi, Long after the two babies were doead and gone.


Mal 1: 2-3
“I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”

He was speaking of two nations, Not two babies.

Even the comment about rebeccah was about nations, not babies.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Lord said to her:
“Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger.”




two nations, Two peoples. the older shal serve the younger (nation)

Again, ESAU the man never served JACOB (the man). If nothign else, Jacob ran from Esau scared for his life, and came back and gave offering and worship to his older brother.

You can not have paul take these OT passages out of context to make a different point