Calvinism - Another Heresy

[jennymae]

Who are you to say that a Pepsi can identifies itself as a coke can?

Can as in can or can as in can?

 

[jsr1221]

Depends.. Can a can do such thing? Or can the can can that stigma out the way?

 

[jennymae]

Depends.. Can a can do such thing? Or can the can can that stigma out the way?

Can that canned man can the can can he?

 

[StanJ]

You know, this post might mean a lot more if you had actually once posted the Bible about it. So what is it called when people mouth and saying something is not in the Bible, but they do not post correctly what they are debating against, and certainly never post a Scripture to support what you are saying? Maybe hypocrisy? Just guessing, you understand!

As usual you interject to complain or voice your displeasure about how a thread is going, but you do not actually contribute.

Whether Calvinism is formed from eisegesis or exegesis won't be apparent until you start supporting your views. As I said, knew of the most Biblically based books I have read is "What is Reformed Theology?" By RC Sproule.

how to use an old adage you know what happens when you assume? I actually like some of the stuff I've read from RC Sproule but that doesn't mean that everything he writes is an alignment with the Bible. I feel the same way about Spurgeon, great man of God but his commitment to RT in my opinion lessens his impact.

I could never be a full Calvinist simply because of the whole infant baptism issue. I've been a Pentecostal and Baptist my whole Christian walk, and after 36 years, I am not going to change that. Also the Bible doesn't support it, except in the vaguest way, in Acts 16.

That's my whole point about being a 1 to 5 point Calvinist, but in regard to the infant baptism thing, that something that people discover on their own and it's usually not taught when the Tulip Doctrine is, for obvious reasons.

I'm still eclectic in my theology, but certainly, reading different theologians and then looking the Scriptures up in context has given me a lot to chew on.

Which is what Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4:11-16.

I'm going to try and post some corrections on the misconceptions about Calvinism which I know I certainly had. However, I still have to wrap presents and do a lot more Christmas stuff, before we leave. So, no idea when I will do this.

I look forward to addressing them, but please do take your time as you know the old saying, 'haste makes waste'.

But, since I do understand hermeneutics quite well, I will assure you I will only do exegetics. I have no iron in this fire, except hoping people will understand each other better, and, oh yes, loving one another as Christ loved the church!

That's the best goal one can have.

 

[Adstar]

That awkward moment when you don't even know what Calvinism is...

Well this is the 5 Point declarations of calvinism they are called Tulip..

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints."

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."

So now you know what calvinisim is..

 

[lv2ski]

Sooo, you're the wise man in your own eyes?

Maybe this is why you're Depleted.

Can you just read God's Word and apply it? Mysteries and all. It's not a difficult issue if you keep it in context with the pictures and teachings in the word. The two doctrines that are being debatedare just intellectual fodder. The word doesn't teach either. Those are just two men's opinion on what is explained in the bible.

I realize it makes for nice long threads here that have no solution or end point, but that's not the Lord's will. He wants us to hear and understand the word of the Lord. Indicating that one can, which disqualifies thistopic. Since it's never settled, nor is it illustratedin the OT.

 

[maxwel]

i'd just like to put that the meme in question should correctly be interpreted as a "post" not a "stick"

yours,
- post -



View attachment 163683

There was once a time I'd argue with a post.

That was long ago.

Now I'm post post-argumentation

 

[StanJ]

Well this is the 5 Point declarations of calvinism they are called Tulip..

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints."

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."

So now you know what calvinisim is..

THE CALVINIST T. U. L. I. P.
REFUTED BY SCRIPTURE
Compiled by John Henryk

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Calvinist plays many such word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):


Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."


U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.):

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."


L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."


I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):

Lamentations 3:35-36: "To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not."

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life."

Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."


P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."

Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."


CONCLUSION:

Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but arbitrarily. This strikes at the love and justice of God, contradicts the fact that Christ gave his life for ALL, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.

Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."

Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."

John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

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[Depleted]

You asked me does God predestine?

A:yes (foreordain / predestine)

By what right?

I didn't really understand this question, but I answered his right to do what he wants.

Then you asked me if he deserved the right to do what he wants....

I am genuinely baffled by this question. Am I being thick?

When simple subject-oriented questions are called inane, it's not thick. It's arrogance. You won't explain yourself and you won't let others counter in a civil way, or ANY way, but now you've posted a couple of excuses, including, "I am baffled." And that is being generous considering your title for this little game of yours.

On a grading scale of 1-10, with ten being extremely credible, I'd give you a .5.

 

[Depleted]

Everything is predestined in terms of what's in the Bible and what's here on Earth. God knew the past, knows the present, and knows the future. That doesn't mean we stop ministering to others, though. Jesus instructs us to make disciples of the nation's. God doesn't create someone just to send them straight to hell after. People end up in hell, yes. But that's of their own doing. Their free will got them in that situation. If Calvinism was real, then that contradicts free will. And we know we have free will.

And now you need to read my other answers. This time I answered before you asked. lol

But, yeah. It certainly contradicts free will. That's a thingy with us. We don't believe in free will, just free agency. We're not denying that one.

 

[Depleted]

So... you saw a meme of a stick, saying "people will argue about anything on the internet"?



- Is it your contention that people actually WOULD argue about a stick?


- Would you maintain that a stick has no properties valuable enough to induce argumentation?


- Lets just get to the bottom of this; are you FOR the stick, or AGAINST it?

: )

It's a branch!

 

[StanJ]

When simple subject-oriented questions are called inane, it's not thick. It's arrogance. You won't explain yourself and you won't let others counter in a civil way, or ANY way, but now you've posted a couple of excuses, including, "I am baffled." And that is being generous considering your title for this little game of yours.

On a grading scale of 1-10, with ten being extremely credible, I'd give you a .5.

TRANSLATION:
I really can't answer this but don't like what you're saying so I'm going to publicly castigate you anyway.

It really didn't take me long to learn Depleted speak... I've seen it on quite a few forums.

 

[Depleted]

Maybe this is why you're Depleted.

Can you just read God's Word and apply it? Mysteries and all. It's not a difficult issue if you keep it in context with the pictures and teachings in the word. The two doctrines that are being debatedare just intellectual fodder. The word doesn't teach either. Those are just two men's opinion on what is explained in the bible.

I realize it makes for nice long threads here that have no solution or end point, but that's not the Lord's will. He wants us to hear and understand the word of the Lord. Indicating that one can, which disqualifies thistopic. Since it's never settled, nor is it illustratedin the OT.

I've been studying the Bible since you were three. It was settled longer ago than that, but you wouldn't know because you buy whatever anyone tells you.

So, yup, wise only in your own eyes. Arrogant and haughty.

 

[notmyown]

i'd just like to put that the meme in question should correctly be interpreted as a "post" not a "stick"

yours,
- post -









View attachment 163683

no, i'm relatively certain that's what i have to remove from my own eye at times.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, I understand now.

Yeah, from the verse in Romans, its quite clear that the predestined will be called and will accept. So, you can call it "irresistible", I think.

And it is what the 4th point of calvinism says. That those who are predestined to be saved, will accept.

It does not say, though, anything about those who are not predestined to be saved. They can resist the call or accept it for a while and then will fall away.

Hm?

Thats one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is the thought that because God knew they would accept (based on foreknowledge) they were predestined. "Whom he foreknew he predestined"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 1 really does say that nature itself screams "GOD!" And that does leave us with no excuse. Still, doesn't work for us. We're that thick/stupid/dead. If you keep reading Romans all the way up to 8, it is one defense we might make after the next after the next, until every excuse is used up. And still we will not! And then 8-9 (chapters, not verses) goes on to what God did/does/will do.

And, again, you're right, he did for whosoever-will-believe, but whosoever-wills never believed until God steps in.

Why is that important to me? I know if left to my own devices, I'd still be hating God. And if it is my strength to choose, my strength to hang on, my strength to effect my salvation? I'm doomed! I don't have that kind of strength. I'm that stupid. And that dead!

God gave us a super-duper, can't-get-any-better-than-this gift! I can't help but tell others in hopes he gives them the same gift. I've been trying to get my blood family in on this gift for 44 years now. They don't get it. I haven't given up, but part of the reason is because hubby did the same with his family. His brother and stepdad (the only man he knew as "Dad") were dying at the same time (for different reasons.) His brother was saved two weeks before he died. His dad was not. We don't know the list of who God saves, but I keep praying he saves all my family. It's such a super gift we don't deserve. And they refuse it, but that doesn't stop God from dinking his light on us anyway. (Dinking -- the sound of a light switch being flicked. lol)

Lots of people think Calvinists are fatalists. I'm not. I'm an optimist because God saved me, and I don't deserve it, even according to my choice. I'm not worth it, and yet he declared me worthy through his Son. In my mind, everyone is more worth-it than I am. When handed such a perfect gift, the only response is to let everyone else know where this great deal is to pass on our good fortune.

Rom 1
[SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

If one can not know or understand his plight against God and has an ability to repent. They have an excuse. You

do not tell people. "You have no excuse" then keep the truth of their plight hidden so they have no way of escape.

And yes, You are a fatalist, Because you believe your future is predetermined no matter WHAT YOU DO.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

If God foreknew so much about Israel's accepting him, as you assert, why having created them did he then try to wipe them out at Sinai, and tell Moses on another occasion that he was fed up with them and he would eliminate the whole lot of them and start the whole project again through Moses?

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Foreknew simply means that he knew them chronologically first

Fore-ordain / predestine simply means that he planned for them to do a certain thing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Two differences.
1. All people deserve the bottom of the ocean and dead.

We agree, We deserve worse that that we deserve hell

2. God is pure love, but he is also pure just, and he has the best handle of wrathful I've ever seen. Like I wouldn't judge you by just your height, don't judge God by just his love

I will judge God by what he does, and by what he commands us to do. To love so much he die for his enemy (us) and we are to follow his example.

If God died for his enemy, and we are ALL his enemy, Then God died for all. Otherewise, God does not even meet his own standard he demands we live in.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The labels are already there but if somebody doesn't want to be labeled them the best thing they can do is deny the label.
If someone acquiesce is to a label and then obviously it represents what they are.
It's not a matter of standing in what we believe it's a matter of standing on the truth of what God's word says and should always be.

to just label someone something, because of a key word. is wrong.

and even if someone claims to be something, that is iffy, I claim to be a premil - dispensational. Yet if you look at the threads lately, You have everyone under the sun telling me I believe or hold to things I have never believed or held on to.

Most people get their beliefs of what others believe from their churches, or from book who speak about the other. Usually biased sources who are out to discredit said belief. And that is what you see.

Even if someone says I am calvanist, Instead of judging, ask them, Do you believe this or that, If they say no. Then there is room to discuss, Find out why you misunderstand you thought all believed that. Or do as many, and tell that person they are wrong, and you know better than they do, and division (what goes on in here alot)