The problem as I see it is both sides. On the one side, spiritual gifts were given to the church and were never taken away, they are still here, so it is possible for a Christian to be speaking in a tongue given by God. On the other side, this modern Pentecostal movement that started was not of God, therefore much of what is being presented as the moving of the Holy Spirit is not, it is the moving of the person their self, or more then likely, yielding to false spirits.
Tongues Again???
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Do you think for one second that attributing something to God that isn't is any different than attributing something to satan that is of God ? For the sake of many, let's hope it is. And enough with your childish threats of eternal damnation and instead, give us one name of an apostle or prophet today ? You're a five-fold ministry type of guy, aren't you ? Or no ? Tell us of one.
Was that what you offered in respect to ” shabba, shabba ees oi ie say shabbashabba shimba shabba shoe “.) a translation of tongues;:”
If so, was it a direct new revelation as an interpretation of God? If not you would be committing blasphemy, which is having the authority of God in respect to oneself. . We do not take His name, as the authority by which we can believe Him, for nothing.
In that way blasphemy will be forgiven in respect to the Son of man, as that seen , but not against the holy Spirit of Christ as that not seen( the faith principle.)
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
I believe, Christians are to walk, another way of saying; "understand the Spirit of Christ", our teacher, guide and comforter by faith, the unseen eternal. Not by sight as if an external sign was need before they could believe, God not seen.
That would be simply a duplicate of the fall in the garden . God wanted them to walk or understand that he who has no form, desired that men obey His words.as his words of faith . (The belief of God, given to us from God )
Satan who also has no form wanted to be like God . He put his words in the mouth of a creature that did have form. God did not want them to learn obedience by what they performed by doing the will of another. It was a sign of unbelief they did.
They died a spiritual death, the corruption that leads to death had begun.
Signs are for those who believe not.(no faith) Prophecy the living word of God for those who do believe to the salvation of their souls.
You cannot see that which is spiritual. No such thing as a sign gift. It’s what the god of this world requires. His motive of operation.
No such thing as a spiritual(not seen) sign gifts . They are spiritual gifts.
Tongues are a sign to those who believe not prophecy (no faith) .Prophecy for those who have freely been given the faith of Christ (not seen).
The Jews required a sign as their own living hope which in the end proved to be dead .They were hoping in their fleshly experiences as an outward sign would met the approval of God .
The gifts are spiritual as that not seen the eternal.
Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Both those who required a sign before they would believe or those who searched after that not seen through the philosophies as private interpretation of men . To both the cross was a stumbling block.
We understand God according to His faith (His belief’s) that He reveals to us through the scriptures, prophecy.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Walking by faith the unseen eternal is the foundation of spiritual gifts. No such thing as a spiritual (not seen) gift as an outward sign. Again it would destroy the faith principle making it without sefect.
Who would hope for what they already think they have? That would be a dead hope. We have a living hope that will never die
Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Some say what about Thomas as there living hope in signs. Christ told all the disciples the same thing (unless you see a sign you will not believe. a paraphrase I am offering in lieu of verse 25, in John 20.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
To make certain, the Spirit of Christ used Thomas as a witness seeing by the witnesses of his word ( two or three) he is there working with us, in us ,as our Emmanuel
There was not one word of encouragement to require as sign before someone could believe. It was used as a sign against them. The exact opposite, turning things upside down
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, “but believing”. Joh 20:26
The law of faith (the unseen) and not the letter of the law as that seen,. That seen kills and does not edify the church, as a picture of God’s grace and mercy to the world ..
No such thing as self-edification by experiencing a work we can do outwardly. It simply makes the faith of God without effect.
The law of faith below is not subject to change. While I do not think it means a person is not a believer it does make prophecy with effect and cause a dark place.
Prophecy (the living abiding word) for those who do believe (walking by faith not seen). Sign that seen for those who rebel.
1Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, “not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”: but prophesying serveth not for them that “believe not”, but for them “which believe”.
That is like saying that it's in the bible somewhere but I cannot give specific references to support the practice as it is evidenced in the modern church. You cannot show from the scriptures what tongues should look like. You really cannot show from scriptures that what you do at church or in your prayer closet is in scriptural fact biblical.
You give vague and broad assertions that it feels good and I want it to be of God so it must be of God. It is very condescending and dismissive to say go read the bible. Really? You think I have not read and studied this subject? I have asked the questions I'm asking you to many here on CC. Don't feel bad since none of them have ever given a complete or comprehensive answer with biblical support.
Tongues in the modern church are out of context. According to Joel two and the sermon given by Peter in Acts two the gift of tongues will return along with the signs in the heavens just before Christ returns to the earth. These will be signs to the Jew and be above any question in the hearts of men.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You give vague and broad assertions that it feels good and I want it to be of God so it must be of God. It is very condescending and dismissive to say go read the bible. Really? You think I have not read and studied this subject? I have asked the questions I'm asking you to many here on CC. Don't feel bad since none of them have ever given a complete or comprehensive answer with biblical support.
Tongues in the modern church are out of context. According to Joel two and the sermon given by Peter in Acts two the gift of tongues will return along with the signs in the heavens just before Christ returns to the earth. These will be signs to the Jew and be above any question in the hearts of men.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yep..... that's blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
You better hope that was done in ignorance, 'cause that's the only way it's forgiven.
You better hope that was done in ignorance, 'cause that's the only way it's forgiven.
What kind of form does a spiritual (no form) gift have. If a spirutl gift could take form it would take away the faith principle Can't serve two masters. One understanding by that seen the temporal and two understanding , believing God by that not seen the eternal .No such thing as as sign gift. Faith denotes the unseen .
Why do the Pentecost-er need to perform a work as a sign before they can believe God? They tried snake poison, it turned out to be a dead work because they refused to believe the parable, the spirutl understanding was hid. .
What is the spiritual understanding of tongues other than it was given as sign to those who did not believe prophecy?
Is God still bring a tongue as as one of the manners of prophecy or has prophecy ceased now that we have the whole word of God no longer in part?
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
This appears to be more confused eisegesis. Jesus did not equate blaspheming the Spirit with 'the faith principle'.
Another false overgeneralization. Jesus answered the disciples question as to the sign of His coming and of the age. He did not rebuke them for asking. It is also reasonable to interpret I Corinthians 14 as saying that prophecy is a sign for them that believe.
What is the sign of tongues? That men hear and 'yet for all that they will not hear' God. The unbelieving or unlearned hears speaking in tongues and says, 'ye are mad.'
You've got to work on the language skills. Maybe you should pray for the interpretation of tongues.
The part after the word 'after' is pretty much indecipherable. Some of those who only believed if they saw signs saw signs and believed. Jesus told one man 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not believe' before performing the healing the man requested. Thomas saw evidence of the resurrection and then believe. Those who believe after seeing a sign can still be Christians and walk a walk of faith.
There may also be people who just might have believed if they had just heard the word, but had the priviledge of seeing a sign or wonder, and believed. The Bible doesn't condemn such people and we should not judge them. And then there are those who don't see signs and wonders, and still believed.
It's hard to decipher what you mean by these terms. But Jesus doing a sign or wonder, and someone seeing and believing His message clearly did not destroy the 'faith principle.' It did not destroy the 'faith principle' in Acts for that to happen.
A good way of understanding walking by faith and not by sight is that when Peter had asked Jesus if he could come out of the boat and Jesus said, 'Come', that Peter walked by faith. He believed, and he walked on the water. Then, he looked at the winds and waves and walked by sight. He began to sank. Jesus asked him why he'd doubted.
The fact that the miracle that Jesus did was visible and occured in the material world we live in does not diminish the faith Peter exercised to walk on water. The problem was when Peter begin to rely on his sight, and started doubting.
Thomas missed out on the blessing he would have gotten if he had not seen, and ye thad believed. But he did have faith after he saw. His seeing Jesus did not destroy the 'faith principle.'
Those are some really mixed up metaphors. I suggest you not bring this confused idea you have into the interpretation of II Corinthians. Get straightened out in your thinking before you go applying these principles to other passages.
You know exactly where the chapters are...like you said you have studied them but you apparently didn't let them sink in to your heart...Corinthians 13 and 14 are not written in any code. They are written so plain that a child could understand them, so I can't see how on earth people distort and twist them like they do...saying tongues have ceased...
It's really all up to you what you want to believe...but the Word of God is the Word of God and it ain't gonna change no matter how much someone wants to disagree with it...
It's really all up to you what you want to believe...but the Word of God is the Word of God and it ain't gonna change no matter how much someone wants to disagree with it...
Lots of Biblical-sounding phrases. Not a lot of Biblical thinking in this quote. I Corinthians 12 discusses spiritual gifts. It refers to 9 of these gifts as 'manifestations' of the Spirit. These effects of these gifts can be seen, heard, or otherwise experienced. They are manifestations. If you think spiritual gifts can have no external influence on the reality we live in, you need to read the Bible. Jesus constantly healed people. Actual physical bodies were healed. Jesus did not lack in faith because He did this. The apostles did not lack faith because they performed miracles and healings and cast out demons. Having faith helped enable the to do such things.
You create a weird false dichotomy here, confusing the idea of the unseen in your mind.
You've got it backwards in your thinking. The typical pattern for those who function in gifts like healing, miracles, or various other gifts is they believe God first, then the manifestation of the Spirit happens. Paul said of the one gifted to prophesy, let him prophesy according to the proportion of faith. Christ said, "According to your faith be it unto you."
There are some groups up in the Appalachian mountains who handle snakes. it is not typical of Pentecostals. Paul threw a literal snake that bit him in the fire and did not die like the people expected.
See my previous posts on the Isaiah 28 quote. The sign of tongues is fulfilled when people hear it and won't hear God.
More confusion. Giving a prophecy or tongue is not adding to scripture, unless someone actually adds it to the Bible. Not all prophecy is in scripture, as can be easily proven from the Bible. Prophesying is not adding to the book of Revelation unless one adds it to the book of Revelation. Revelation predicts the two witnesses that would prophesy. The main eschatologies would put their prophesying at some time after the last 'amen' in the book of Revelation.
You create a weird false dichotomy here, confusing the idea of the unseen in your mind.
You've got it backwards in your thinking. The typical pattern for those who function in gifts like healing, miracles, or various other gifts is they believe God first, then the manifestation of the Spirit happens. Paul said of the one gifted to prophesy, let him prophesy according to the proportion of faith. Christ said, "According to your faith be it unto you."
There are some groups up in the Appalachian mountains who handle snakes. it is not typical of Pentecostals. Paul threw a literal snake that bit him in the fire and did not die like the people expected.
See my previous posts on the Isaiah 28 quote. The sign of tongues is fulfilled when people hear it and won't hear God.
More confusion. Giving a prophecy or tongue is not adding to scripture, unless someone actually adds it to the Bible. Not all prophecy is in scripture, as can be easily proven from the Bible. Prophesying is not adding to the book of Revelation unless one adds it to the book of Revelation. Revelation predicts the two witnesses that would prophesy. The main eschatologies would put their prophesying at some time after the last 'amen' in the book of Revelation.
CORRECT, and like I posted on the other thread on the same subject, validating that the purpose for those genuine sign gifts was to be a sign to unbelieving Jews that the N.T. was as much the WORD of GOD as the O.T. Even Paul when Timothy started to have stomach problems, could no longer HEAL, and fell back on the common household remedy for Timothy's stomach Problems. And when the purpose for the sign gifts, which what to convince a sufficient number of Jews resulting in their having come to believe in Jesus as their MESSIAH; thereby insuring a REMNANT OF ISRAEL would continually survive; those sign gifts ceased. That certainly did include unbelieving JEWS hearing in their own dialect what the Apostles were saying:
1 Timothy 5:23 (NRSV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] No longer drink only water, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
Mark 16:19-20 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
1 Corinthians 14:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]It follows that speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages is intended as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers. But prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.
1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Acts 4:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]for this sign of healing had been performed on a man over 40 years old.
Acts 4:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]saying, “What shall we do with these men? For that a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.
Matthew 12:39-40 (HCSB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But He answered them,“An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]For as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
How about the whole body of Christ?
The Promise of the Spirit
Joel 2:28“It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions. 29“Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
Sons, daughters, seniors, & servants. Scripturally, there's no expiration date. It's not my fault last-day christians don't believe. I do.
The Promise of the Spirit
Joel 2:28“It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions. 29“Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
Sons, daughters, seniors, & servants. Scripturally, there's no expiration date. It's not my fault last-day christians don't believe. I do.
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