Tongues Again???
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Well I certainly don't obsess about it, it's a gift and like any gift it's not given to all, there are other gifts of equal importance - probably more so I do not see reason to fight about it. I don't understand why there are so many threads on this subject - what about prophecy or healing? I get tired of reading the same old arguments.
A proper conversation about tongues will lead us into prophesy. I'd love to see topics about these things, but they are SPIRITUAL gifts. Which means they are not easy for the rational mind to embrace. It is foolishness. But spiritual things are spiritual discerned by the Spirit. So first we have to turn to Him to teach us.
Healing is probably even more controversial because people don't believe healing is a part of the atonement and therefore all of God's healing is done in His present will as opposed to His established will. This can leads to a lot of issues, but yeah ditching tongues to speak of healing won't calm things down. It'll probably get more passionate, haha.
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Face to face is when we see Jesus. "Then" is when we're in heaven. "Then" is when the christian is complete.
How's that for bustin' a move?
Face to face is when we see Jesus. "Then" is when we're in heaven. "Then" is when the christian is complete.
How's that for bustin' a move?
The work of tongues was two fold. Tongues as prophecy and not in respect to the outward sign used to show those who had no faith.But to the three thousand who did believe to the salvation of their soul the a revelation from God can heal as well as bringing death to those who have no faith.
2Corinthians 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
I once heard an example that has helped me, I believe. It was a story of the Victors of a conflict returning to their home towns . the residents throwing out roses in antipation of untiing with loved one. the the victores is was the sweeyt smell of life to the prisoner the smell of certain death.
No such thing as a spiritual gift that has form.It includes both the physical healing or the spiritual hearing of the 3000 whose souls were quicken by the hearing of faith, as the anchor of their soul .
Why do people feel they need more that what God reveals? Why go above that which is written in the living abiding word?
2Corinthians 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
I once heard an example that has helped me, I believe. It was a story of the Victors of a conflict returning to their home towns . the residents throwing out roses in antipation of untiing with loved one. the the victores is was the sweeyt smell of life to the prisoner the smell of certain death.
No such thing as a spiritual gift that has form.It includes both the physical healing or the spiritual hearing of the 3000 whose souls were quicken by the hearing of faith, as the anchor of their soul .
Why do people feel they need more that what God reveals? Why go above that which is written in the living abiding word?
I wonder why those who promote the idea that certaing gifts cease are always teaching ideas like this that aren't found in scripture, that actually contradict scripture. First of all, verses about signs that confirmed the word as it was preached never talk about confirming the 'New Testament' as a book of scripture. Am I right to interpret your quote above? If we argue that they did, that's one thing. But the scriptures do not teach that. Signs confirmed the 'word preach' and scripture demonstrates that this is a repeatable thing. The word can be confirmed over and over again, through signs, and wonders, and of course signs, wonders, and gifts are given as God wills.
Were signs confirming the word restricted to audiences of unbelieving Jews? If that is the assertion, that is unbiblical.
Acts 15
1n all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles1n all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
(NKJV)
1 Timothy 5:23 (NRSV)
23 No longer drink only water, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
A theory with such flimsy evidence. What do you do with the fact that Paul had an illness early on in his ministry, and went on to do great miracles in Ephesus and heal all the sick that were with him on an island.
Galatians 4
13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.
(NKJV)
This was early in Paul's ministry. If Paul's first trip to Galatia was not the first missionary journey, it occured at least by Acts 16, which records a trip with Silas there. This was before the great miracles in Ephesus and all those healings late in his ministry on the island of Malta.
So if it was possible for Paul to be sick himself, where he was there to lay hands on himself, and still operate in the gifts of healing or other spiritual gifts, why would Timothy being sick far away where Paul could not lay hands on him be evidence that these gifts had ceased.
There are some other things to consider also. It could be that Paul healing people was not merely a superpower that he could activate purely at will like Superman's heat vision in the comics. That would explain why her performed the miracle at Lystra when he saw that the lame man had the faith to be healed and why the text mentions the man's faith. It could also explain the issues with his own eyes early in his ministry. The way healing worked could explain why the apostles in Acts 4 asked God to stretch forth His hand and do signs and wonders, though they'd healed before. It could explain why Peter prayed before raising Dorcas fromt he dead.
They had to have faith. There was the issue of the will of God also.
Paul's instructions to Timothy also teach us to have practical concern for our physical bodies. We should not just take terrible care of ourselves, eat Big Macs for every meal, etc. If you eat something that messes your stomach up, don't eat that. You can take practical remedies to stay healthy. We should have some common sense concern for nutrition, instead of just relying on supernatural healing because we don't take care of ourselves.
Show one scripture that says the 'sign gifts' ceased. Show me the scripture that gives you the authority to put all the gifts that don't fit in a Deist world view or an atheist world view into a bucket called the 'sign gifts.' Show me scripture that teaches that gifts of healing or the gift of the working of miracles or signs or wonders ceased.
I'm still waiting. You are teaching a theory. My Bible still teaches that gifts of healing and the gift of the working of miracles is given as the Spirit wills. You are making your assertions contrary to that.
Do you believe that prophesying is not for you in this day and age. Note that in the passage, the unbeliever or unlearned says when hearing speaking in tongues 'ye are mad.'
It is ironic that you quote this and underline that portion, since one of your big arguments has been that you haven't seen these signs, wonders, and miracles like the apostles did, as if you'd have to see the signs to take a straightforward approach to scripture, and interpret scriptures as not being valid today because you haven't witnessed signs that fit your criteria.
Were signs confirming the word restricted to audiences of unbelieving Jews? If that is the assertion, that is unbiblical.
Acts 15
1n all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles1n all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
(NKJV)
1 Timothy 5:23 (NRSV)
23 No longer drink only water, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
A theory with such flimsy evidence. What do you do with the fact that Paul had an illness early on in his ministry, and went on to do great miracles in Ephesus and heal all the sick that were with him on an island.
Galatians 4
13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.
(NKJV)
This was early in Paul's ministry. If Paul's first trip to Galatia was not the first missionary journey, it occured at least by Acts 16, which records a trip with Silas there. This was before the great miracles in Ephesus and all those healings late in his ministry on the island of Malta.
So if it was possible for Paul to be sick himself, where he was there to lay hands on himself, and still operate in the gifts of healing or other spiritual gifts, why would Timothy being sick far away where Paul could not lay hands on him be evidence that these gifts had ceased.
There are some other things to consider also. It could be that Paul healing people was not merely a superpower that he could activate purely at will like Superman's heat vision in the comics. That would explain why her performed the miracle at Lystra when he saw that the lame man had the faith to be healed and why the text mentions the man's faith. It could also explain the issues with his own eyes early in his ministry. The way healing worked could explain why the apostles in Acts 4 asked God to stretch forth His hand and do signs and wonders, though they'd healed before. It could explain why Peter prayed before raising Dorcas fromt he dead.
They had to have faith. There was the issue of the will of God also.
Paul's instructions to Timothy also teach us to have practical concern for our physical bodies. We should not just take terrible care of ourselves, eat Big Macs for every meal, etc. If you eat something that messes your stomach up, don't eat that. You can take practical remedies to stay healthy. We should have some common sense concern for nutrition, instead of just relying on supernatural healing because we don't take care of ourselves.
Show one scripture that says the 'sign gifts' ceased. Show me the scripture that gives you the authority to put all the gifts that don't fit in a Deist world view or an atheist world view into a bucket called the 'sign gifts.' Show me scripture that teaches that gifts of healing or the gift of the working of miracles or signs or wonders ceased.
I'm still waiting. You are teaching a theory. My Bible still teaches that gifts of healing and the gift of the working of miracles is given as the Spirit wills. You are making your assertions contrary to that.
Do you believe that prophesying is not for you in this day and age. Note that in the passage, the unbeliever or unlearned says when hearing speaking in tongues 'ye are mad.'
It is ironic that you quote this and underline that portion, since one of your big arguments has been that you haven't seen these signs, wonders, and miracles like the apostles did, as if you'd have to see the signs to take a straightforward approach to scripture, and interpret scriptures as not being valid today because you haven't witnessed signs that fit your criteria.
The verse about tongues being a sign to them that believe not makes more sense if you think of it as answering this question:
'Who are tongues a sign to in regard to the passage from Isaiah 28?'
and not
'What are tongues for?'
since Paul gave us a lot of information about what tongues does in the passage earlier.
'Who are tongues a sign to in regard to the passage from Isaiah 28?'
and not
'What are tongues for?'
since Paul gave us a lot of information about what tongues does in the passage earlier.
Do these verses mean anything to you?
Luke 6:37 (NIV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Matthew 7:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Do not judge, so that you won’t be judged.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For with the judgment you use, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
1 Corinthians 14:34 (HCSB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
Luke 6:37 (NIV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Matthew 7:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Do not judge, so that you won’t be judged.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For with the judgment you use, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
1 Corinthians 14:34 (HCSB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
Isaiah 28:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So He will speak to this people with stammering speech and in a foreign language.
AND then you ignore these verses:
Acts 2:5-8 (GW)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Devout Jewish men from every nation were living in Jerusalem.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] They gathered when they heard the wind. Each person was startled to recognize his own dialect when the disciples spoke.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Stunned and amazed, the people in the crowd said, “All of these men who are speaking are Galileans. {Galileans were known to have a unique, thick accent; yet they heard their own language without a Galilean accent.}
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Why do we hear them speaking in our native dialects?
Is not the genuine Gift of TONGUES, as much a MIRACLE of the HEARING, as it was the SPEAKING?
NONE of those characteristics of the genuine GIFT of TONGUES are present in the Charismatic tongues. I see NOTHING even close to what the disciples did, but it is identical to what the pagans did in the Mystery Religions; which is nothing more than psychological phenomena also known as ecstatic utterances. It is even a very poor imitation of what the disciples did as a sign to the unbelieving Jews as prophesied.
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My understanding of speaking in tongues takes into account Acts 2 and I Corinthians 12-14. Yours contradicts I Corinthians 14. I believe genuine speaking in tongues is speaking in real languages. The difference between Acts 2 and I Corinthians 14 scenarios is that in Acts 2, people were present who understood different languages and the Spirit gave languages the people present could understand. In I Corinthians 14, the languages given are not understood by those present ('No man understandeth him.') But if speaking in tongues is interpreted, it can edify others.
You've posted from a commentator who considers I Corinthians 14 tongues as being pagan in origin. I do not recall your answering my question about why, if that were the case, Paul would want pagan tongues interpreted, and how pagan utterances could edify the church.
Usually, when speaking in tongues occurs these days, it is more along the lines of I Corinthians 14 (in my experience and what I've heard.) There are many testimonies, rare by comparison, of people speaking in tongues where others present understand. I've spoken with two people overseas who have heard speaking in tongues in English, with one individual speaking in KJV English. Even if ethnocentric Americans may not agree with it, there are plenty of people on earth who do not actually know or understand English. There are also references to people going to the Azusa Street Revival and other Pentecostal meetings and hearing their own languages 'in tongues.'
I don't see a case for 'miracle in the ear' in this passage. I wouldn't break fellowship over it, but I think it's a convoluted interpretation. Why interpret a passage in an unnecessarily complicated way. If you use a loose, dynamic equivalence translation somewhere between the NIV and the Message, you might be able to make that point, but you can make lots of points off the turn of phrase of loose translations that aren't true.
Here is verse 6 in the KJV
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Here it says 'every man heard them speak in his own language.' It does not say that they saw their lips saying one thing, but they actually heard something else in another language, like a dubbed Kung Fu movie. The fact that they were speaking other languages, rather than just the hearer perceiving languages they were not speaking, was already established in this verse:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
You've posted from a commentator who considers I Corinthians 14 tongues as being pagan in origin. I do not recall your answering my question about why, if that were the case, Paul would want pagan tongues interpreted, and how pagan utterances could edify the church.
Usually, when speaking in tongues occurs these days, it is more along the lines of I Corinthians 14 (in my experience and what I've heard.) There are many testimonies, rare by comparison, of people speaking in tongues where others present understand. I've spoken with two people overseas who have heard speaking in tongues in English, with one individual speaking in KJV English. Even if ethnocentric Americans may not agree with it, there are plenty of people on earth who do not actually know or understand English. There are also references to people going to the Azusa Street Revival and other Pentecostal meetings and hearing their own languages 'in tongues.'
I don't see a case for 'miracle in the ear' in this passage. I wouldn't break fellowship over it, but I think it's a convoluted interpretation. Why interpret a passage in an unnecessarily complicated way. If you use a loose, dynamic equivalence translation somewhere between the NIV and the Message, you might be able to make that point, but you can make lots of points off the turn of phrase of loose translations that aren't true.
Here is verse 6 in the KJV
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Here it says 'every man heard them speak in his own language.' It does not say that they saw their lips saying one thing, but they actually heard something else in another language, like a dubbed Kung Fu movie. The fact that they were speaking other languages, rather than just the hearer perceiving languages they were not speaking, was already established in this verse:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Never huh? I have been at this a long time too. And over the many years I have met many men and women of God who have said they have made errors in thier life concerning the word of God. There are NO error in Gods word but man does make them. it took the Holy Spirit to correct them guess what HE used? the Word of God and other mature brothers and sister who were called to be gifts to the church for the "Profecting of the saints". I have learned to a void those who think they have never made and error concerning one understanding of the bible. Humility is the greatest trait of a good teacher of the Word of God
You are definitely wrong about why we reject it. It primarily is fact that your tongues are totally different than what the disciples did. In the genuine TONGUES, people from every known Country heard every word in their very own native "dialektos", which is language so correct even the native accent is present. Plus it is the fact that Charismatic tongues is identical to what the pagans did in the Greek and Roman Mystery Religions. It also continues today in non-Christian religions like Mormonism, Muslims, Hindus and, several other non-Christian Religions as well as the Pentecostals and the Charismatics.
NOTICE: you use EXPERIENCE as the test of the Biblical TRUTH about your conterfeit Tongues. Now is that how the Scriptures tell us to TEST the spirits that are the origin of different doctrines and experiences? NOT AT ALL:
1 John 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
And you just accept the Experience as being from GOD, without ever examining the Scriptures, comparing the experience to what the Disciples actually DID.
I guarantee you NEVER so much as studied the origin of a word that JESUS used when He said do not pray like the Pagans.
That word is "battalogeo", and most of us know that "logeo" in the Greek is WORDS. But where does the Batta come from? The Greeks involved in the Worship of Apollo, were taught to Pray in a Tongue that only the gods understand. The specific instructions from the Pagan Priest were: "Say batta, batta, batta over and over again as fast as you can, and the gods will turn it into a language that only they understand." Plato. who lived centuries before Christ. made reference to the excited feelings generated by tongues in the Worship of Apollo, calling it Divine Ecstacy.
Matthew 6:7-9 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not keep on babbling {battalogeo} like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
Now, with that understanding of what the PAGANS called their "Prayer Language that only the gods understood", and the SPECIFIC instructions from JESUS "This, then, is how you should pray", is it not clear that HE wants us to take our requests directly to the Father, glorifying HIS name in our own KNOWN language? Is it not obvious that every Pentecostal and every Charismatic is disobeying Christ when they use their so-called Private Prayer Language?
As you can see, your ASSUMPTION that non-charismatics reject your tongues due to lack of experiencing tongues, is as WRONG as your ASSUMPTION that your charismatic experience is of GOD.
I have it's right there in the bible the book of Acts also known as the "Acts of the Holy Spirit". 1 Corthians chapter 12, 13, 14 very clear . and you cannot .. well you can , but taking one verse out of the three chapters given on the "gifts of The Holy Spirit " is not the right way to understand the contexual meaning: verse 9 of the chapter states: For we know in part, and we "prophesy in Part". this "that which is Perfect comes" is speaking when Jesus comes as it is clearer in verse 12 FOR now wbhich means : in the meantime we see through a glass, darkly, BUT then face to face: now I know in part: but then I SHALL KNOW even as also Iam known. and you have to keep reading through chapter 14 which sayes FOLLOW AFTER charity AND desire spiritual gifts . and if you continue there is no statement any of the gifts have ceased. no where and i have waited for you to show where they have .
Same here Brother:
The Bible teachers that have had the most influence on my spiritual growth are:
Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - Grace to You sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
Dr. Charles Stanley - http://www.intouch.org/
Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
Dr. Zola Levitt - http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118 - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. Ben Haden - Why
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -
Dr. Dave Hunt - https://www.thebereancall.org/
Eliezer Urbach, associated with Jews for Jesus - Eliezer Urbach - Jews for Jesus
As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry and Pastor Gordan Broadbent especially.
The Bible teachers that have had the most influence on my spiritual growth are:
Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. - Grace to You sermons dating back to the early 70s - free to listen to.
Dr. Adrian Rogers - Listen to Adrian Rogers - Love Worth Finding Radio Online
Dr. Charles Stanley - http://www.intouch.org/
Dr. Richard Lee - First Redeemer Church | Duluth | Cumming | Alpharetta
Dr. Zola Levitt - http://www.levitt.tv/media/watch/118 - some free - videos
Dr. Ed Young - http://www.winningwalk.org/t-bio.aspx
Dr. Gil Rugh - http://www.ihcc.org/ - free sermons dating back to the late 70s - free
Dr. Chuck Swindoll - Listen to Chuck Swindoll - Insight for Living Radio Online
Dr. Walter Martin - https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/martin_walter/
Dr. Ben Haden - Why
Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost - Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost (1915–2014) -
Dr. Dave Hunt - https://www.thebereancall.org/
Eliezer Urbach, associated with Jews for Jesus - Eliezer Urbach - Jews for Jesus
As well as the Pastors of Churches that I attended; Pastor Neil Berry and Pastor Gordan Broadbent especially.