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Depleted said:
Heads up. When you put quote marks around something someone said, it's supposed to be what that person said. Not how you interpret the words. It's fine to interpret, but don't use direct quotes then.
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Of perhaps 72 different translations you might read that all have at least a word or two different than some of the others, which is the EXACT translation of the words spoken? I'll help you out... "None of them." Because we are not reading Aramaic from the pages of our Bibles. Stop trying to be so petty, and read ANY Bible for what was intended to be conveyed.

Surely, you don't truly and specifically believe Jesus told us to actually HATE our entire families before we can expect to become His disciples.......... even though those are the precise words written in most Bibles. (The words you say we are to only show within quotation marks.)

Go get some coffee. You don't seem to have awakened yet. LOL
 
These “radical grace” teachers lead us toward the paradigm of universal restoration in the way in which they offer us sweeping statements of grace without the necessary qualifications. The following is their conundrum: to give the qualifications would transform what they just said into the opposite of what they just said. The “grace-based” message remains a fear-based message unless it is applied to all. For example, following are a few statements that I as a Christian Universalist can take at face value. But I worry about those who must consider all the necessary qualifications (if they are honest). For if they or their loved ones do not believe just right or if they are not lucky enough to be among the “elect of God” there still exists some form of eternal destruction or torment still threatening just under the surface of these statements :
“The Gospel is the glad and merry news that God is good, he loves you, and he will happily give up everything he has so he can have you…God is not mad at you. He is not even in a bad mood…God is happy, he is for you and he wants to share his life with you forever…he would rather die than live without us…not even death can separate us from the love that is ours in Jesus Christ…grace must be free or it’s not grace.” (Ellis, pg 6)
​
 
The gospel of grace must stay on the "tracks"----the Word of God is the rails....
 
But we know that the above statements cannot be made as long as there is a possibility for eternal damnation. There is always the fear of lack of sincerity or strength of one’s faith.
“Forgiveness is not something God does; it’s something He’s already done” (Ellis, pg 31)
​
But the truth is that most believe that forgiveness can be revoked if you do not believe adequately or continue to believe. (Or some propose that all are “forgiven” even while existing in an eternal hell. Not much comfort!)
“He’s reconciling everything everywhere. The scope of Christ’s finished work is both individual and cosmic: it ranges from personal pardon for sin and individual forgiveness to the final resurrection of our bodies and the restoration of the whole world. Now that’s good news–gospel–isn’t it? As the beloved Christmas hymn ‘Joy To the World’ puts it, ‘He comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found.'” (Tchividjian, Jesus+Nothing=Everything, pg 83)
​
 
I'm unclear on where the bible says there'll be a one-world religion.
 
But if you are not assured of being one of the elect (Tchividjian is a Calvinist) then none of this applies to you. And it is not really the “world” that is restored but an extremely small percentage of persons. The reality is that billions of God’s own image-bearers will be lost and “remain in a cycle of sin and punishment forever” (D.A. Carson). This is not good news unless you redefine “good” and “news.”
“God does not leave you wondering whether you are saved or not. He tells you outright that you are His and that nothing can ever separate you from the love of Christ. Not even sin because His blood is greater than your sin!” (Joseph Prince, Destined to Reign, p.95)
​
But when and how can you ever fully rest in this subjective statement? How can this statement be made if all are not promised to be loved and kept by God? What if you have never heard that “voice” confirming you are His? Perhaps you have instead even heard, “maybe you are not really saved“? What do we make of that?
 
The Arminian view
The Arminian/free-will teachers say that YOU are the only obstacle that would ever keep you from God’s love and salvation (Ellis, pg 9). I appreciate that sentiment on some level for it is better than believing it might be God Himself not “choosing” you for salvation. But it puts assurance in the realm of unstable subjectivity: have I done enough to prove I have saving faith? What if I don’t feel like a Christian? What if I don’t act like a Christian enough? What if I don’t have a strong desire to pray–is it because I am not saved or is my lack of desire from a faulty view of the Gospel…the “mixture”? How many poor do I have to feed to know that I am a sheep? Am I a sheep or a goat…or both? What if I do more goat things than sheep things? What if I don’t get this “sheep/goat” thing ironed out before I die?
This view puts the enormous weight and responsibility of salvation upon the human frame where it was never meant to be.
The name Jesus means “God Saves”…
but free-will says “I save me…from God.”
 
[for me anyway] through faith are we saved by grace, because that is what God's Word says, and I agree with God, not man. As for some manner of inclusiveness, for me receiving salvation from God through Christ Jesus is exclusive, again because God's Word, specifically His Son Jesus Christ our Lord tells us exactly that only by (way of) Him can we come to the Father; therefore it is an impossibility to climb up some other way, or else the Lord Jesus is not telling us the Truth: as for me I will trust Christ, and not man.
 
lastofall said:
[for me anyway] through faith are we saved by grace, because that is what God's Word says, and I agree with God, not man. As for some manner of inclusiveness, for me receiving salvation from God through Christ Jesus is exclusive, again because God's Word, specifically His Son Jesus Christ our Lord tells us exactly that only by (way of) Him can we come to the Father; therefore it is an impossibility to climb up some other way, or else the Lord Jesus is not telling us the Truth: as for me I will trust Christ, and not man.
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But the entire message of the Bible is that ALL can be included. No one is left out of the invitation the way many religions exclude certain people. The invitation is to every single person ever born on this planet.
 
Now, I understand that reading this stuff seem like a lot of hoopla.

But..... the REAL POINT of all of this is this "New Grace" teaching is ONLY ONE POINT OF DIFFERENCE FROM UNIVERSALISM!

How do we accept one, & reject the other, when they're just one point of difference apart?
 
There is a massive difference between "universalism" and believing in a universal atonement in Christ.

The scriptures do show that Christ is the Savior of the whole world - but they also say that we must believe what Christ has already done for us.

John 4:42 (NASB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

1 John 4:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

It is hard to believe but the scriptures also say that there are some that reject Christ's sacrifice for sins and if we reject His work on the cross and resurrection - there is no more sacrifice for sins but an expectation of judgment.

John 3:36 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The blood of Jesus has been shed - the Lamb has taken away the sin of the world but people must believe this in order to receive it for themselves.

Peter preaching the gospel - this is a word for word account of the real gospel being preached to the gentiles.

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Here is Paul preaching the exact same gospel - another word for word account of the real gospel being preached - only this time to the Jews.

Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.



Those who believe - receive the forgiveness of sins through His Name. We are to proclaim that they have the forgiveness of sins through His name because they believe in Christ's finished work.

This is the true gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh - how we have watered down the true message of the finished work of Christ and "replaced" it with our church traditions.

It is called "good news" for a reason. We have a great salvation in our Lord.
 
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Willie-T said:
Of perhaps 72 different translations you might read that all have at least a word or two different than some of the others, which is the EXACT translation of the words spoken? I'll help you out... "None of them." Because we are not reading Aramaic from the pages of our Bibles. Stop trying to be so petty, and read ANY Bible for what was intended to be conveyed.

Surely, you don't truly and specifically believe Jesus told us to actually HATE our entire families before we can expect to become His disciples.......... even though those are the precise words written in most Bibles. (The words you say we are to only show within quotation marks.)

Go get some coffee. You don't seem to have awakened yet. LOL
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I live in North America in the winter and South America in the summer. I never move, but it is obvious this is true because everyone knows the north is cold and the south is warm. AND if you do not believe me you're bull-headed, haven't had your coffee yet, and aren't awake. LOL (Oh, oh. Almost forgot to laugh to pass it off as passive/friendly.)

This is pretty much how are your arguments go. Nothing but your sense posing as common sense (and posing poorly) followed immediately as passing it off as the other guy has the problem.

So teach me, oh Sage. Which version of the Bible has this one?
Willie-T said:
How does that reflect upon Jesus when He said, "You have understood certain things to mean thus-and-such... BUT I give you this 'new' (truer and more accurate) definition of what those words mean."?
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According to your reasoning, every translation doesn't say the same thing, so which translation do you quote from for what Jesus said there? Not in a single one I've ever read.

Two people have told you that's not what it says, take any commentary on it and it will say the same thing we said, but, yo! You always know exactly what Jesus meant, even if he never said what he meant.
 
Willie-T said:
But the entire message of the Bible is that ALL can be included. No one is left out of the invitation the way many religions exclude certain people. The invitation is to every single person ever born on this planet.
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All can be sporting professionals too. All can be Oscar winning performers. All can be gold-record singers. All can be millionaires and billionaires. All can be sanitation workers. All can be right handed. All can be healthy. All can be city dwellers. All can be Texans.

"Can be" and "are" are two different things.
 
Stephen63 said:
Now, I understand that reading this stuff seem like a lot of hoopla.

But..... the REAL POINT of all of this is this "New Grace" teaching is ONLY ONE POINT OF DIFFERENCE FROM UNIVERSALISM!

How do we accept one, & reject the other, when they're just one point of difference apart?
Click to expand...
Does it kill everything if I go off and reject both? (In the words of Bugs Bunny, "I'm a little stinker, ain't I?" lol)
 
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not
for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
 
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I think the Bee Gees distilled the Calvinist essence in their song


Here I lie
In a lost and lonely part of town
Held in time
In a world of tears I slowly drown
Goin' home
I just can't make it all alone
I really should be holding you
Holding you
Loving you, loving you

Tragedy
When the feeling's gone and you can't go on
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and you don't know why
It's hard to bear
With no one to love you, you're
Goin' nowhere
Tragedy
When you lose control and you got no soul
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and you don't know why
It's hard to bear
With no one beside you, you're
Goin' nowhere
When the feeling's gone and you can't go on

Night and day
There's a burning down inside of me
Burning love
With a yearning that won't let me be
Down I go
And I just can't take it all alone
I really should be holding you
Holding you
Loving you, loving

Tragedy
When the feeling's gone and you can't go on
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and you don't know why
It's hard to bear
With no one to love you, you're
Goin' nowhere
Tragedy
When you lose control and you got no soul
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and you don't know why
It's hard to bear
With no one beside you, you're
You're goin' nowhere

Tragedy
When the feeling's gone and you can't go on
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and you don't know why
It's hard to bear
With no one to love you, you're goin' nowhere
Tragedy
When you lose control and you got no soul
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and you don't know why
It's hard to bear
With no one beside you, you're goin' nowhere

Tragedy
When the feeling's gone and you can't go on
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and you don't know why
It's hard to bear
With no one to love you, you're goin' nowhere
Tragedy
When you lose control and you got no soul
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and your heart just dies
It's hard to bear
With no one to love you, you're goin' nowhere

Tragedy
When the feeling's gone and you can't go on
It's tragedy
When the morning cries and you don't know why
It's hard to bear
With no one to love you, you're goin' nowhere
Tragedy
 
Magenta said:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not
for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
Click to expand...

Hummm...... I guess it DOES say that, doesn't it?
 
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