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Why must they endure the tribulation? Is because Jesus said so enough? A well known pre-trib teacher was teaching 2Thess chapter 2 where Paul states that we cannot be gathered to Christ until AFTER the appearing of the Antichrist. I thought to myself, he cannot teach that place in scripture because it proves that there is no pre-trib rapture, just the second coming of Christ to gather the church. His method was astounding, he had Paul describing the pre-trib rapture in one sentence and in the next sentence he claimed Paul was writing of the second coming. If he had used that method in an English class in 3rd grade he would have received an F. This total disregard for the obvious word of God is blasphemous. I have never understood folks who have no fear of changing the word of God...it makes me wonder, do they REALLY believe in God? Or do they believe in a God they have created in their imagination? They should know that the moment they conceive in the mind to alter the obvious word of God, that God is aware of what they are doing.
Amen to that! Not making a distinction between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is the on-going error. When one understands that these are two separate events, with different purposes, then there is no error. The first event is to gather the church and the second event is to end the age and establish the millennial kingdom.
When the two events are interpreted as being the same, then many problems are presented. Prior to right now and Christ's return to the earth, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Since scripture makes clear that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, and that because Jesus already experienced it for us, satisfying it, then we cannot go through God's wrath. And since the entire earth will be exposed to these plagues of wrath, believers cannot be here.
Here is are some examples: At the 5th trumpet, a star, which is symbolic for an angel, opens the Abyss, which is a literal place underneath the earth. And out of the Abyss comes demonic beings that don't have power to kill but only to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. The only group that is mentioned as being exempt from this plague of wrath are those who will have the seal of God in their foreheads. That said, the only group that will have been sealed during that time will be the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, which would mean that everyone else would be susceptible to this trumpet judgment, including the church if they were here.
The Lord's gathering of the church is referred to as "coming like a thief." Thieves come to steal when the possibility of getting caught is low, ergo, in the darkness of night so that they can't be seen. The other characteristic is that a thief wants to get the goods as quickly as possible and then leave without being detected. Regarding this, in another parable, Jesus said, "if the good man of the house had known at what time the thief was going to break in, he would have kept watch for him so that he would not have let his house be broken into.
These characteristics can be applied to the Lord's appearing to gather the church. Since the Lord's appearing to gather us is always imminent and we don't know when he is going to appear (like a thief), then, like the good man of the house, believers must always be watching and ready, anticipating the Lord's appearing so that He doesn't take us by surprise.
The reference to "Every EYE shall see him" is not regarding the gathering of the church, which will have already taken place, but to the other event where the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. This is why it is paramount to understanding that there is a difference between these two events.
When the two events are interpreted as being the same, then many problems are presented. Prior to right now and Christ's return to the earth, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. Since scripture makes clear that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, and that because Jesus already experienced it for us, satisfying it, then we cannot go through God's wrath. And since the entire earth will be exposed to these plagues of wrath, believers cannot be here.
Here is are some examples: At the 5th trumpet, a star, which is symbolic for an angel, opens the Abyss, which is a literal place underneath the earth. And out of the Abyss comes demonic beings that don't have power to kill but only to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. The only group that is mentioned as being exempt from this plague of wrath are those who will have the seal of God in their foreheads. That said, the only group that will have been sealed during that time will be the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, which would mean that everyone else would be susceptible to this trumpet judgment, including the church if they were here.
The Lord's gathering of the church is referred to as "coming like a thief." Thieves come to steal when the possibility of getting caught is low, ergo, in the darkness of night so that they can't be seen. The other characteristic is that a thief wants to get the goods as quickly as possible and then leave without being detected. Regarding this, in another parable, Jesus said, "if the good man of the house had known at what time the thief was going to break in, he would have kept watch for him so that he would not have let his house be broken into.
These characteristics can be applied to the Lord's appearing to gather the church. Since the Lord's appearing to gather us is always imminent and we don't know when he is going to appear (like a thief), then, like the good man of the house, believers must always be watching and ready, anticipating the Lord's appearing so that He doesn't take us by surprise.
The reference to "Every EYE shall see him" is not regarding the gathering of the church, which will have already taken place, but to the other event where the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. This is why it is paramount to understanding that there is a difference between these two events.
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P
i Just came across this a few minutes ago;
luke 14;15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Then this;
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Wedding supper in heaven.
Pretrib rapture
luke 14;15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Then this;
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Wedding supper in heaven.
Pretrib rapture
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Well said popeye! And I would add that scripture also demonstrates that the Bride/church will be receiving her fine line, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb and then the bride is seen following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses wearing that same fine linen, white and clean (Rev.17:14, 19:6-8,14). That the bride/church follows Christ out of heaven, would demonstrate that she is already in heaven.
Hello samuel23,
The tribulation referred to here, is not the common trial and tribulation that Jesus said that all believers would have because of our faith in Him. The tribulation that is coming is God's time of tribulation and should not be confused with the common trial and tribulation that has been and continues to take place in the world.
The coming tribulation was prophesied by the OT prophets and the apostles as "the day of the Lord." Jesus also referred to it as "the hour of trial." This time of tribulation will be in fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24-27) and upon the rest of the Christ rejecting inhabitants on the earth, which is the reason why they will still be on the earth. The church, who has already received Christ, repented and is following after Christ and being lead by the Spirit, will not be here during that time of God's wrath.
This time of God's wrath is also revealed in Dan.2:31-45 where the statue represents human government and which is smashed to pieces by the Rock that is cut out of the mountain but not by human hands and falls like chaff on the threshing floor, blown away by the wind without leaving a trace (the end of human government). This decimation and dismantling of human government, is what the majority of the book of Revelation is about "the things which must soon take place." By the time the 7th bowl has been poured out, the population will have been decimated and all human government will be dismantled. Then, the Rock that smashes the statue to pieces, will fill the entire earth, which is representing Christ's millennial kingdom.
The tribulation referred to here, is not the common trial and tribulation that Jesus said that all believers would have because of our faith in Him. The tribulation that is coming is God's time of tribulation and should not be confused with the common trial and tribulation that has been and continues to take place in the world.
The coming tribulation was prophesied by the OT prophets and the apostles as "the day of the Lord." Jesus also referred to it as "the hour of trial." This time of tribulation will be in fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24-27) and upon the rest of the Christ rejecting inhabitants on the earth, which is the reason why they will still be on the earth. The church, who has already received Christ, repented and is following after Christ and being lead by the Spirit, will not be here during that time of God's wrath.
This time of God's wrath is also revealed in Dan.2:31-45 where the statue represents human government and which is smashed to pieces by the Rock that is cut out of the mountain but not by human hands and falls like chaff on the threshing floor, blown away by the wind without leaving a trace (the end of human government). This decimation and dismantling of human government, is what the majority of the book of Revelation is about "the things which must soon take place." By the time the 7th bowl has been poured out, the population will have been decimated and all human government will be dismantled. Then, the Rock that smashes the statue to pieces, will fill the entire earth, which is representing Christ's millennial kingdom.
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G
Please do not mistake "the plea of a warning" for something else. It is not my intent to insult or offend - or take "cheap shots" at people, whatever exactly that is supposed to mean. It is my intent to try to "wake people up" to the truth about the severe error in the pre-trib rapture doctrine - which does more harm than you realize.
Your stance is quite clear. Yes, it is. And, it is very well understood by those of us who have been there before - where you are now. However, your stance is also quite wrong...
I am not saying this to be mean or ugly. I am saying this to hopefully get the attention of people who have been 'indoctrinated' in a way they do not fully realize as of yet.
Think of it as a "tough love" kind of thing...
Has it ever occurred to you that a one-part post-trib pre-wrath Second Coming of Christ is perfectly and legitimately possible where all of God's promises are kept and no born-again Christian suffers any of God's Wrath?
"I promise you, it is there! Right there in the scriptures. Right in front of your face. Right under your nose."
But you will never, never, never, be able to see it until you are willing to give up making certain assumptions that the Bible does not actually say.
You and others have been given scripture over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over --- and, you still refuse to see or accept what it is actually saying. You have been so 'conditioned' to "playing your tape" that you cannot understand anything else.
As for the 'demonic' comment, not everyone thinks about it quite that same way; however, what I will say is that I do believe that the [ false ] pre-trib rapture doctrine can be "dangerous" and / or "detrimental" to the 'proper' spiritual health of a Christian.
And, if you ever escape the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" view-of-biblical-prophecy 'bondage' that you are now under --- you will know exactly what I mean...
"I promise you -- the thing is true -- I lie not."
Satan has you -- playing his game -- and, you do not even realize it...
The 'game' is perpetuated and sustained by PRIDE.
i.e. - I will illustrate it this way:
"You are caught in the Matrix. I am trying to get you out. You are way too comfortable and satisfied with the storyline you have been given to even realize that there is a truth out there beyond what your captors have allowed you to comprehend."
It takes a lot of pride-swallowing to "get out of the Matrix"...
I am not calling anyone 'dumb', 'stupid', 'ignorant', 'unintelligent', etc.
I am saying that your natural human pride will keep you from learning the truth about a lot of very important things that you would be better off knowing the truth about.
Pray that God will give you the strength to let go of those things you are so tightly hanging on to...
Your stance is quite clear. Yes, it is. And, it is very well understood by those of us who have been there before - where you are now. However, your stance is also quite wrong...
I am not saying this to be mean or ugly. I am saying this to hopefully get the attention of people who have been 'indoctrinated' in a way they do not fully realize as of yet.
Think of it as a "tough love" kind of thing...
Has it ever occurred to you that a one-part post-trib pre-wrath Second Coming of Christ is perfectly and legitimately possible where all of God's promises are kept and no born-again Christian suffers any of God's Wrath?
"I promise you, it is there! Right there in the scriptures. Right in front of your face. Right under your nose."
But you will never, never, never, be able to see it until you are willing to give up making certain assumptions that the Bible does not actually say.
You and others have been given scripture over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over --- and, you still refuse to see or accept what it is actually saying. You have been so 'conditioned' to "playing your tape" that you cannot understand anything else.
As for the 'demonic' comment, not everyone thinks about it quite that same way; however, what I will say is that I do believe that the [ false ] pre-trib rapture doctrine can be "dangerous" and / or "detrimental" to the 'proper' spiritual health of a Christian.
And, if you ever escape the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" view-of-biblical-prophecy 'bondage' that you are now under --- you will know exactly what I mean...
"I promise you -- the thing is true -- I lie not."
Satan has you -- playing his game -- and, you do not even realize it...
The 'game' is perpetuated and sustained by PRIDE.
i.e. - I will illustrate it this way:
"You are caught in the Matrix. I am trying to get you out. You are way too comfortable and satisfied with the storyline you have been given to even realize that there is a truth out there beyond what your captors have allowed you to comprehend."
It takes a lot of pride-swallowing to "get out of the Matrix"...
I am not calling anyone 'dumb', 'stupid', 'ignorant', 'unintelligent', etc.
I am saying that your natural human pride will keep you from learning the truth about a lot of very important things that you would be better off knowing the truth about.
Pray that God will give you the strength to let go of those things you are so tightly hanging on to...
What does more harm, to teach that the Lord is going to gather His church prior to His wrath or send her through is wrath and gather her afterwards?
In teaching that the Lord is going to gather believers when he returns to the earth to end the age, you put the entire living church through the wrath of God, when scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. By making this claim, you and others dishonor Christ and that because He already experienced the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, satisfying it.
That time of coming wrath will be specifically for those who have rejected Christ, the prideful, the haughty, the arrogant, the sexually immoral, murderers, thieves, liars, those who practice sorcery and continue in the sinful nature. And since there will be no place to hide from God's coming wrath, the church cannot be here while it is taking place, which is why there will be a pre-trib gathering of the church.
As I continue to proclaim, if the church was to be gathered after God's wrath was poured out upon the earth it would not be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another with the promise of His appearing to gather us. It would mean that the church would be suffering the same wrath that those who have rejected Christ would be suffering. There would be no difference between the righteous and the unrighteous, for both groups would be experiencing God's wrath.
One of the biggest problems with expositors today, is not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. The other is not discerning that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
Who are His "called, chosen and faithful followers?"
"Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns.Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” Rev.19:6-8
In the scripture above, the bride/church is shown to be receiving her fine linen, white and clean. And below, she is seen wearing that same fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses, also referred to as His called, chosen and faithful followers.
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." Rev.19:14
It is you and others who are not believing in the Lord's promise nor believing in His word.
P
Please do not mistake "the plea of a warning" for something else. It is not my intent to insult or offend - or take "cheap shots" at people, whatever exactly that is supposed to mean. It is my intent to try to "wake people up" to the truth about the severe error in the pre-trib rapture doctrine - which does more harm than you realize.
Your stance is quite clear. Yes, it is. And, it is very well understood by those of us who have been there before - where you are now. However, your stance is also quite wrong...
I am not saying this to be mean or ugly. I am saying this to hopefully get the attention of people who have been 'indoctrinated' in a way they do not fully realize as of yet.
Think of it as a "tough love" kind of thing...
Has it ever occurred to you that a one-part post-trib pre-wrath Second Coming of Christ is perfectly and legitimately possible where all of God's promises are kept and no born-again Christian suffers any of God's Wrath?
"I promise you, it is there! Right there in the scriptures. Right in front of your face. Right under your nose."
But you will never, never, never, be able to see it until you are willing to give up making certain assumptions that the Bible does not actually say.
You and others have been given scripture over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over --- and, you still refuse to see or accept what it is actually saying. You have been so 'conditioned' to "playing your tape" that you cannot understand anything else.
As for the 'demonic' comment, not everyone thinks about it quite that same way; however, what I will say is that I do believe that the [ false ] pre-trib rapture doctrine can be "dangerous" and / or "detrimental" to the 'proper' spiritual health of a Christian.
And, if you ever escape the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" view-of-biblical-prophecy 'bondage' that you are now under --- you will know exactly what I mean...
"I promise you -- the thing is true -- I lie not."
Satan has you -- playing his game -- and, you do not even realize it...
The 'game' is perpetuated and sustained by PRIDE.
i.e. - I will illustrate it this way:
"You are caught in the Matrix. I am trying to get you out. You are way too comfortable and satisfied with the storyline you have been given to even realize that there is a truth out there beyond what your captors have allowed you to comprehend."
It takes a lot of pride-swallowing to "get out of the Matrix"...
I am not calling anyone 'dumb', 'stupid', 'ignorant', 'unintelligent', etc.
I am saying that your natural human pride will keep you from learning the truth about a lot of very important things that you would be better off knowing the truth about.
Pray that God will give you the strength to let go of those things you are so tightly hanging on to...
Your stance is quite clear. Yes, it is. And, it is very well understood by those of us who have been there before - where you are now. However, your stance is also quite wrong...
I am not saying this to be mean or ugly. I am saying this to hopefully get the attention of people who have been 'indoctrinated' in a way they do not fully realize as of yet.
Think of it as a "tough love" kind of thing...
Has it ever occurred to you that a one-part post-trib pre-wrath Second Coming of Christ is perfectly and legitimately possible where all of God's promises are kept and no born-again Christian suffers any of God's Wrath?
"I promise you, it is there! Right there in the scriptures. Right in front of your face. Right under your nose."
But you will never, never, never, be able to see it until you are willing to give up making certain assumptions that the Bible does not actually say.
You and others have been given scripture over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over-and-over --- and, you still refuse to see or accept what it is actually saying. You have been so 'conditioned' to "playing your tape" that you cannot understand anything else.
As for the 'demonic' comment, not everyone thinks about it quite that same way; however, what I will say is that I do believe that the [ false ] pre-trib rapture doctrine can be "dangerous" and / or "detrimental" to the 'proper' spiritual health of a Christian.
And, if you ever escape the "70th week of Daniel, 7-year tribulation, pre-trib rapture, antichrist treaty with Israel" view-of-biblical-prophecy 'bondage' that you are now under --- you will know exactly what I mean...
"I promise you -- the thing is true -- I lie not."
Satan has you -- playing his game -- and, you do not even realize it...
The 'game' is perpetuated and sustained by PRIDE.
i.e. - I will illustrate it this way:
"You are caught in the Matrix. I am trying to get you out. You are way too comfortable and satisfied with the storyline you have been given to even realize that there is a truth out there beyond what your captors have allowed you to comprehend."
It takes a lot of pride-swallowing to "get out of the Matrix"...
I am not calling anyone 'dumb', 'stupid', 'ignorant', 'unintelligent', etc.
I am saying that your natural human pride will keep you from learning the truth about a lot of very important things that you would be better off knowing the truth about.
Pray that God will give you the strength to let go of those things you are so tightly hanging on to...
Your case,as you just outlined,is 100% conjecture.
You have a supposition,not a biblical case.
P
I am pretrib and that concept has zero negative impact.
You take "revealed" and turn it into " chases them for 7 years"
The ac is around for many weeks,then we are raptured. We are still raptured PRETRIB.
Your point fails completely. We get to see him. REVEALED.
I am so amazed at the stretch and conjecture where you guys,in your minds,think you actually hit some valid point.
You take "revealed" and turn it into " chases them for 7 years"
The ac is around for many weeks,then we are raptured. We are still raptured PRETRIB.
Your point fails completely. We get to see him. REVEALED.
I am so amazed at the stretch and conjecture where you guys,in your minds,think you actually hit some valid point.
P
And yet it is you guys leaving tons of relevant verses off the table.
It is our camp that brings to the debate the rewards,the escape,the bride and groom,the wedding,and something you guys mock,NAMELY THE LAST CHAPTER OF THE BIBLE.
"COME QUICKLY LORD JESUS"
You guys await and are looking for the AC,not the messiah.
Deception comes subtly. Those in it are unaware.
Your teachers never teach you the escape,those left behind,or the wedding.
You can watch hours of post trib teachers and never hear of those dimensions entered CONSTRUCTIVELY.
If they should touch those concepts,it is only to literally tear them down.
It is our camp that brings to the debate the rewards,the escape,the bride and groom,the wedding,and something you guys mock,NAMELY THE LAST CHAPTER OF THE BIBLE.
"COME QUICKLY LORD JESUS"
You guys await and are looking for the AC,not the messiah.
Deception comes subtly. Those in it are unaware.
Your teachers never teach you the escape,those left behind,or the wedding.
You can watch hours of post trib teachers and never hear of those dimensions entered CONSTRUCTIVELY.
If they should touch those concepts,it is only to literally tear them down.
Tons of verses promoting the pre-trib rapture? When you can do nothing else, muddy the water by striving to drag all kinds of verses into the equation. When you know the other guy has the superior position then make lots of noise...it is the only thing left to do. I keep hearing this, "one must understand that there are two,the pre-trib rapture and later the 2nd coming." Why must I accept something that is not in the bible? Did Jesus teach the disciples that there were two returns, one before the tribulation and the other after? Not at all, Jesus taught the apostles of one return of Christ to gather the church after the tribulation. Why should I contradict Jesus and believe there are two? Paul taught of one return of Christ to gather the church after the advent of the Antichrist. If you want to add to the scriptures I suppose that is your business but leave me out of it, I fear God.
In Rev 7: 2-4 it states that the 144000 have a seal of God placed on their foreheads. In Rev 9: 3-6 it states that the Locusts are allowed to torture those of mankind that do not have the seal. Whether one believes that the 144000 are literal Jews or not the fact remains that they are on earth during the tribulation and appear to be immune to Gods judgments. What are Gods people sealed with if not with the Holy Spirit? According to Pre Trib beliefs the Holy Spirit has gone along with the church before the tribulation starts so where are the 144000 getting their protection from? Also how do the two witnesses manage to perform miracles for three and a half years and the so called tribulation saints get saved when the rest of the church has gone?
Noah is often cited as a type of the rapture by Pre Tribbers. Problem is he never left the earth, neither did the Israelites during the plagues of Egypt or Lot when Sodom was destroyed or Rahab when Joshua destroyed Jericho with the help of God and TRUMPETS these are all types of the tribulation and judgement yet in every case Gods wrath was unleashed and
his people stayed here.
Jesus prayed that his Disciples would not be taken from the Earth but be kept from the evil one. Has this request been cancelled?
Noah is often cited as a type of the rapture by Pre Tribbers. Problem is he never left the earth, neither did the Israelites during the plagues of Egypt or Lot when Sodom was destroyed or Rahab when Joshua destroyed Jericho with the help of God and TRUMPETS these are all types of the tribulation and judgement yet in every case Gods wrath was unleashed and
his people stayed here.
Jesus prayed that his Disciples would not be taken from the Earth but be kept from the evil one. Has this request been cancelled?
Like many of you I have been studying this subject for decades. I started out as a pre-tribber because that is what I was taught growing up. However, over the course of my own study, I now see that the Rapture is not only post trib, it is post everything. Pre-tribbers make the mistake of splitting the only return of the Lord into two separate returns separated by usually 7 years to allow for the so-called "Great Tribulation." You won't find any cohesive lesson of two separate returns taught, not by Jesus or anyone else. What we have is elements of the only return of Christ taught in different places. Pre-tribbers move some of the pieces ahead to justify an earlier, separate return while post-tribbers tend to put all of these lessons together into One and ONLY return.
Pre-tribbers rely heavily on 1 Thes 4 and John 14 to argue for two returns however, neither passage make any reference to the Great Tribulation which should be a concern to the pre-tribber. However, the bigger question is the synchronicity and harmony of other passages. When one digs deeper, one finds that everything is pointing to the "rapture" being on the final day of this old earth age.
Much of the problem comes from poor translations. The word “rapture” is not found in the Bible, though it is claimed to be the Latin equivalent of harpadzo translated “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV). Even Hal Lindsey admitted that "translation" is just as viable a word. If we put "translated" in place of "caught up" in the below, the passage would read like this:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be translated together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The term "clouds" is a reference to the innumerable company of angels and saints who reside in heaven. Everyone is dressed in white robes and they appear like clouds from a distance. The word, "air" is not the sky, it is AER which means to respire or breath, or be alive. If we "correct" the NKJV translation (which is NOT a divinely inspired translation), the passage could read like this:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be translated together with them in the assembly of heaven to meet the Lord breathing and alive. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Now compare this idea with the same concept Paul teaches in 1 Cor 15:
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
These are identical concepts. We have a resurrection and a translation of the living at a trumpet. The end result is ALL OF US WHO ARE SAVED WILL BE TOGETHER WITH THE LORD AND IT HAPPENS AT THE SAME TIME!!
So the real question isn't whether or not this happens as clearly it does. The question is WHEN does this happen.
We see this event as John describes it in Rev 21:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
You see, all who are saved are part of the Bride. There are no second class citizens in heaven. There are some with better rewards, but nobody who is saved is "left behind" or not part of the Bride.
“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [SUP]11 [/SUP]having the glory of God.
This happens as Jesus Himself tells us four times in John 6, "AT THE LAST DAY."
No other day is confirmed.
Pre-tribbers rely heavily on 1 Thes 4 and John 14 to argue for two returns however, neither passage make any reference to the Great Tribulation which should be a concern to the pre-tribber. However, the bigger question is the synchronicity and harmony of other passages. When one digs deeper, one finds that everything is pointing to the "rapture" being on the final day of this old earth age.
Much of the problem comes from poor translations. The word “rapture” is not found in the Bible, though it is claimed to be the Latin equivalent of harpadzo translated “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV). Even Hal Lindsey admitted that "translation" is just as viable a word. If we put "translated" in place of "caught up" in the below, the passage would read like this:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be translated together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The term "clouds" is a reference to the innumerable company of angels and saints who reside in heaven. Everyone is dressed in white robes and they appear like clouds from a distance. The word, "air" is not the sky, it is AER which means to respire or breath, or be alive. If we "correct" the NKJV translation (which is NOT a divinely inspired translation), the passage could read like this:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be translated together with them in the assembly of heaven to meet the Lord breathing and alive. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Now compare this idea with the same concept Paul teaches in 1 Cor 15:
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
These are identical concepts. We have a resurrection and a translation of the living at a trumpet. The end result is ALL OF US WHO ARE SAVED WILL BE TOGETHER WITH THE LORD AND IT HAPPENS AT THE SAME TIME!!
So the real question isn't whether or not this happens as clearly it does. The question is WHEN does this happen.
We see this event as John describes it in Rev 21:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
You see, all who are saved are part of the Bride. There are no second class citizens in heaven. There are some with better rewards, but nobody who is saved is "left behind" or not part of the Bride.
“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [SUP]11 [/SUP]having the glory of God.
This happens as Jesus Himself tells us four times in John 6, "AT THE LAST DAY."
No other day is confirmed.
I have a different view on the 144K although the rest of your arguments make perfect sense under your scenario. You see, John teaches the way his Teacher often taught, by compare and contrasting people or groups of people. Example: Those worshiping vs. those in the courtyard. The good woman of Rev 12 vs the Bad Woman (Harlot) of Rev 17. Those in the Book of Life vs. those not found. The two sets of grapes harvested, the dragon vs. the Lamb, etc, etc.
Therefore I believe the 144K is being compared to the Great Multitude in Heaven. Both groups are good and saved. The 144K are firstfruits meaning they were saved and in heaven before the GM. They are Jews from 12 tribes, the GM are from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. Therefore the GM are those saved after Christ when salvation came to the Gentiles. This makes the 144K OT Jewish saints who are saved.
They are sealed before this was allowed to happen. “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees." Do not confuse this with the Great Tribulation as we have no such teaching that the harming of these things are part of it.
Therefore I believe the 144K is being compared to the Great Multitude in Heaven. Both groups are good and saved. The 144K are firstfruits meaning they were saved and in heaven before the GM. They are Jews from 12 tribes, the GM are from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. Therefore the GM are those saved after Christ when salvation came to the Gentiles. This makes the 144K OT Jewish saints who are saved.
They are sealed before this was allowed to happen. “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees." Do not confuse this with the Great Tribulation as we have no such teaching that the harming of these things are part of it.
In the days of Noah we are told that people were going on living the same old way until Noah entered the Ark. He also says that at his coming some will be taken and some left. Who was left after the flood? Noah and his family. Who was taken? The wicked. In Lukes version the Disciples ask Jesus where those who are taken were going to. He replied where the body is the vultures will gather together, (Eagles in KJV, they are carrion eaters). In Rev 19:17-18 the birds of the air are called to a great supper where they eat the bodies of those who oppose God.
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