Calvinism - Total Depravity

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StanJ said:
Look at the exegesis not the person if the exegesis is correct then you shouldn't have a problem accepting it but I wasn't responding to your query was I? Suffice it to say there are always armchair critics that are ready to throw in on a moment's notice I have no idea what the issue is. There's nothing new Under the Sun and I rather abhor having to write something that's already been written. If you have a problem with anything in particular in the link then let me know and I'll try to address it. I'm not supporting the person but I do support his exegesis.
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So yeah i read his article on 'None seek God' and he doesnt really outline what he believes. He sort of just says the calvinist believes this and that but actually didnt give any reasons for why none seek God? Why do none seek God? Because ultimately he cannot seek God unless he is born again JOhn 3. So why do none seek God Stan?
 
SovereignGrace said:
It was sad to behold that debate. Flowers was totally unarmed to fight Dr. White.
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Oh right i was thinking of a different Flowers that james White debates. Brandon Flowers is the gay pastor i think he debates with James White. But yeah ive seen the leighton flowers and James white debate. :) Good debate
 
StanJ said:
Eternal life is not spiritual it is physical. Our spirit never dies, which is why the Lake of Fire is the destination of the unsaved spirit. You attempting to use human rationale to explain a spiritual principle is not how one reads the Bible. Hermeneutical exegesis is about being able to use the Holy Spirit to provide a clear indication of what the scriptures are saying among other things. An overall knowledge of the rationale that runs through scripture from beginning to end is also important to have, and that only comes by studying the word of God.[/QUOTE/] Your saying that peoples Spirits are alive if they are not dead. Why the need to be born again? how is it that things can only be understood if they are spiritually discerned? This doesnt make any sense... If peoples Spirits are alive then why the need for transformation and regeneration? Whats transformed and regenerated?
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nowyouseem033 said:
So yeah i read his article on 'None seek God' and he doesnt really outline what he believes. He sort of just says the calvinist believes this and that but actually didnt give any reasons for why none seek God? Why do none seek God? Because ultimately he cannot seek God unless he is born again JOhn 3. So why do none seek God Stan?
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Well you may have skimmed through the article but you definitely didn't read it or you would not be asking me this question the bottom line is people throughout history of sought God, that's why there are many religions.
You also seem to forget that there's an Old Testament full of men who saught God so obviously your understanding of 'none seek God' is flawed and out of context.
 
nowyouseem033 said:
Your saying that peoples Spirits are alive if they are not dead. Why the need to be born again? how is it that things can only be understood if they are spiritually discerned? This doesnt make any sense... If peoples Spirits are alive then why the need for transformation and regeneration? Whats transformed and regenerated?
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No, you're saying that, I said what I said. We need to be born again because Jesus said so... Is that not enough for you?
Do you only accept the rationale in the word of God as you understand it or do you accept it as it is? I never said that people's Spirits were alive I said the spirit doesn't die and for the exact reason that it's not necessarily alive it exists in a non-corporeal state which is not life. God exists and is only alive in the person of Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit are not alive but they do possess and are able to impart to us eternal life.
 
StanJ said:
Well you may have skimmed through the article but you definitely didn't read it or you would not be asking me this question the bottom line is people throughout history of sought God, that's why there are many religions.
You also seem to forget that there's an Old Testament full of men who saught God so obviously your understanding of 'none seek God' is flawed and out of context.
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Oy. So when God said none seek Him, He meant what instead? Do you think all those people having an orgy around a golden calf were seeking God? Maybe it is only people who have already had experience with God who seek Him out... like David, for instance?
 
StanJ said:
No, you're saying that, I said what I said. We need to be born again because Jesus said so... Is that not enough for you?
Do you only accept the rationale in the word of God as you understand it or do you accept it as it is? I never said that people's Spirits were alive I said the spirit doesn't die and for the exact reason that it's not necessarily alive it exists in a non-corporeal state which is not life. God exists and is only alive in the person of Jesus Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit are not alive but they do possess and are able to impart to us eternal life.
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Oh my. You say God is not alive? That is news to me :eek:

We need to be born again of the Spirit.
 
StanJ said:
Well you may have skimmed through the article but you definitely didn't read it or you would not be asking me this question the bottom line is people throughout history of sought God, that's why there are many religions.
You also seem to forget that there's an Old Testament full of men who saught God so obviously your understanding of 'none seek God' is flawed and out of context.
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So when Paul says no one seeks God you say some do seek God? Isnt that contradicting Paul when he says none? I attempt to reconcile the seeming contradiction between the two. The people that you mentioned who do seek God do so out of a heart that has already been transformed and aided by the Grace of God. Thats why they can seek God. Noneone seeks God speaks of everybody left to there own vices or free will. Conclusion: Noone will seek God because noone can seek God in and of themselves.. how is that hard to understand?
 
We are born again of the Spirit of God but you say the Spirit of God is not alive?

You say our spirit lives forever but the Spirit of God is not alive.

Well, that is some twisted theology, StanJ.
 
How can you seek God when you are blind? Doesnt your eyes and mind need to first be open before one can actually seek God? Its really as simple as that? If you agree that we are spiritually blind then this means you actually are unable to seek God.... again how is this hard to understand?
 
Magenta said:
Oy. So when God said none seek Him, He meant what instead? Do you think all those people having an orgy around a golden calf were seeking God? Maybe it is only people who have already had experience with God who seek Him out... like David, for instance?
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Oy Vey....read my post again, carefully, and place your call again. Do you not understand that being born again is a New Testament / Covenant process? He told the Pharisee, Nicodemus, that he must be born again. Was Nicodemus totally depraved?
 
nowyouseem033 said:
How can you seek God when you are blind? Doesnt your eyes and mind need to first be open before one can actually seek God? Its really as simple as that? If you agree that we are spiritually blind then this means you actually are unable to seek God.... again how is this hard to understand?
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People seek the truth and of course Jesus Christ is the embodiment of the Truth :) But as to seeking God, the natural man is at enmity with God. So... I agree with you, it is easy to understand but apparently not for all to grasp.
 
Magenta said:
Oh my. You say God is not alive? That is news to me :eek:
We need to be born again of the Spirit.
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You seem to have a problem with the English I'm writing? Again, read my post, carefully. We need to be born again in Spirit by the Holy Spirit.
 
StanJ said:
Oy Vey....read my post again, carefully, and place your call again. Do you not understand that being born again is a New Testament / Covenant process? He told the Pharisee, Nicodemus, that he must be born again. Was Nicodemus totally depraved?
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Nicodemus did not understand what Jesus was telling him. I wonder how he really felt, maybe he did feel totally depraved sneaking out to talk to Jesus under cover of the night. Total depravity... I have not read the whole thread, so I am not sure what you mean by it. But judging from the last couple of pages what I have seen you say... God is not alive, the Holy Spirit is not alive, life is only physical, our spirit lives forever... all those things have no Scriptural basis.
 
StanJ said:
You seem to have a problem with the English I'm writing? Again, read my post, carefully. We need to be born again in Spirit by the Holy Spirit.
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That is what I said. It seems you are the one with the problem.
 
StanJ said:
You seem to have a problem with the English I'm writing? Again, read my post, carefully. We need to be born again in Spirit by the Holy Spirit.
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Oh, except of course you say the spirit lives forever anyways so you contradict yourself. We do need to be born again of the Holy Spirit of God or we pass into the second death. Only God is eternal.
 
Magenta said:
People seek the truth and of course Jesus Christ is the embodiment of the Truth :) But as to seeking God, the natural man is at enmity with God. So... I agree with you, it is easy to understand but apparently not for all to grasp.
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I'm pretty sure you're not understanding the King James version or the word enmity. Try reading it in a Modern English version to see what it says.
Romans 8:7 NIV
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

This does not mean it cannot recognize the Spirit of God or the reality of Jesus Christ, it just can't submit to the law which was the Old Covenant. It can however respond to God's drawing.
 
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