To all the post trib and no trib believers.

PlainWord · Dec 31, 2016

If you can derive the passage which instructs John to come up to heaven to be shown what happens after this into the entire Church being raptured, then you can get any passage to say anything you want it to say.

First off, if the Church was Raptured in 4:1, then John wasn't called up to heaven and shown anything. John being taken to heaven happened circa 96 AD. The "rapture" has not yet happened some ~2,000 years later so how can they be the same event? Thus either John was taken to heaven in 4:1 or the church will be, but the passage cannot be describing both events. If the Church is taken in Rev 4:1, then John never left earth and never saw anything that he could report. If John was taken in 4:1, then the passage cannot be discussing a future rapture. Indeed, if the Church was raptured then it was the church that was shown things and the Church should be the one reporting what it saw, not John. Yet, John was the one who recorded future scenes/events and not the Church.

So, take your pick. I'm going with the clear teaching that it was John taken up to heaven in the spirit and shown things. The evidence of this is the writings of the things he saw so it had to be John who went up and not the Church some 2,000 years later.

It is amazing to me how literalists think they are so pure then propose wildly unsupportable figurative meanings to literal passage to advance their false narrative of a pre-trib rapture.

pottersclay · Dec 31, 2016

PlainWord said:

If you can derive the passage which instructs John to come up to heaven to be shown what happens after this into the entire Church being raptured, then you can get any passage to say anything you want it to say.

First off, if the Church was Raptured in 4:1, then John wasn't called up to heaven and shown anything. John being taken to heaven happened circa 96 AD. The "rapture" has not yet happened some ~2,000 years later so how can they be the same event? Thus either John was taken to heaven in 4:1 or the church will be, but the passage cannot be describing both events. If the Church is taken in Rev 4:1, then John never left earth and never saw anything that he could report. If John was taken in 4:1, then the passage cannot be discussing a future rapture. Indeed, if the Church was raptured then it was the church that was shown things and the Church should be the one reporting what it saw, not John. Yet, John was the one who recorded future scenes/events and not the Church.

So, take your pick. I'm going with the clear teaching that it was John taken up to heaven in the spirit and shown things. The evidence of this is the writings of the things he saw so it had to be John who went up and not the Church some 2,000 years later.

It is amazing to me how literalists think they are so pure then propose wildly unsupportable figurative meanings to literal passage to advance their false narrative of a pre-trib rapture.

The way that scripture is presented is a picture of how the church shall be raptured.
Come up here " and immediately I was in the spirit" .

PlainWord · Dec 31, 2016

pottersclay said:

Again, John was in spirit, not the Church. In the "rapture" souls are said to return to earth to receive their resurrected bodies and are joined with those who are alive and transformed then all returned to heaven. Rev 4:1 contains none of this language.

“Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

The passage states that YOU (John) will be shown things, it doesn't say "THE CHURCH" will be shown things. "YOU" is a singular pronoun. If the Church was intended, the word used would have been, "THEM" or "THEY."

What good would it be to show the Church anything post Rapture when there is nothing left for them to do on earth? Showing John in AD 96 while undergoing persecution would provide him, and those of the 7 church to whom he wrote, great comfort. The passage continues:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

"I" not the Church, "was in Spirit." Since John was the author, "I" can only be referring to him, not the Church some 2,000 years later. Again, for the Church to have been raptured in Rev 4 and shown things, then this could not have happened yet as the rapture is still future. Since it is future than according to you, 4:1 is future so the Church hasn't been taken to heaven yet. If the Church hasn't been taken to heaven yet then it wasn't shown anything yet. If it wasn't shown anything yet, then how can the results of what it was not yet shown be recorded as having been already seen?

Your theory fails on so many levels. Start being honest with yourself, please.

PlainWord · Dec 31, 2016

4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

Again, if anyone can take this passage which clearly identifies John being taken in Spirit to heaven and instead read it to mean the Church has been raptured at some point in the future can get any passage to say anything they want.

The context could not be more clear. John was speaking in the first person describing things he saw, not things a future raptured church would see.

...and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders...

And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll...

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice...

[SUP]4 [/SUP]So I wept much, because no one was found worthy...

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep...

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne...

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels...

...and all that are in them, I heard saying:...

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying...

Are we to believe John didn't see anything and instead take all his personal references out and replace them with the Church? What's the point in reading the Bible if you have license to make it say whatever you want it to say?

pottersclay · Dec 31, 2016

PlainWord said:

And again you miss it, and no this is not the only verse. Voice as a trumpet. Ask yourself why a trumpet, why not like rushing waters or like the still small voice. Only used twice in the bible.
The word immediately should catch your eye also. If you don't want to believe fine your choice. But when you slander this doctrine, pull it out of content, and present it as unfounded you are in err.
The rapture is scriptural not some fairytale as you present it.
I noticed that the side stepping of the days of Noah when I brought Enoch into the picture went on.
What does the days of Noah have in common with revelation? A judgment brought on by God . For the entire world.
One that no amount of prayer would stop. No amount of sacrifice. And just as Noah was preserved through the flood so the remnant of Israel will be. Why because of grace. Now Enoch was taken before this judgment..Why because his testimony was pleasing to God. So what pleases God? By honoring the son. Why is little known about Enoch? Because Jesus made himself of no reputation. It's all about the will of the father...God.
Enoch testimony pleased God. By this scripture we know he was a preacher, are we called to preach? If we preach Christ are we honoring the son? If so would that be pleasing to the father?

I've compared the judgement of the world with the former judgment of the world. The example of the first judgment compared to the last. That is what imo Jesus asked us to do when he pointed to Noah.
So keep cherry picking the scriptures to dance to your song. I prefer to listen to the orchestra.

bluto · Dec 31, 2016

Look ahwtu, I understand what your saying regarding your very first point. But what militates against is the fact that again, Jesus is expounding about the question of when will be the end of the age. Now, let me say that there are views that posit that the first part is referring to Israel and the second part of the Olivet Discourse refers to the actual end of the age. I get that but if it's Israle Jesus is referring to as you say why is the visitation of the antichrist seen by Israel before the end of the age? Why is it inserted so early so to speak that he will be seen? Your other two points are "moot" at this point because the first point has to be dealt with first.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

PlainWord · Dec 31, 2016

It's easy to miss something not there. "Voice as a Trumpet" simply means it was a strong command. John wasn't politely asked if he'd like to come up to heaven in spirit. He was ORDERED to go. He was immediately in the spirit. It didn't say "last trumpet" did it? Don't confuse the two. I absolutely slander your doctrine as it is a false doctrine. Anyone who can take that passage and totally swap out John and insert, "the church" can do anything to any passage. Its a very dangerous habit some of you have.

The "rapture" as you see it is not real. However, Christ does return for a second (and final) time. When He comes those alive are translated and there is a resurrection and judgment of all who ever lived. The old corrupt earth is then dissolved and those of us who are saved go to the new heaven. Those not found in the Book have a tropical place that they go. There is no 1,000 year reign of Christ in the current Jerusalem. There is no future man-made temple to be built. All of this is conjecture and not taught.

The "days of Noah" reference tells us two things about the return of Christ. A) He comes without warning to those who are not saved (i.e., the condemned). He comes as a thief in the night. B) Evil and wickedness will be at an all time high as it was in Noah's day. Indeed, God does bring judgment upon the wicked and He rescues the righteous. Don't confuse this with the Great Tribulation as discussed by Jesus as the two are not even close to being the same thing.

Read the Book of Jasher if you want to know more about Enoch. Much more is told about him there. Why do you reference Enoch in relation to the return of Christ? The comparison is with Noah, not Enoch. Nothing says the Church gets taken without death the way Enoch did. In fact, there are 2,000 years of Church history of believers dying. What makes you think the final generation of the Church is any more worthy of "rapture" then our fathers or grandfathers? For it is written, "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," Why do you not believe this? Only those who are alive and remaining until the second coming, that small remnant (not the entire Church as it stands today), get changed without facing death.

You prefer to listen to a lot of hot air of the pre-trib dispensationalists false doctrines.

PlainWord · Dec 31, 2016

Potter,

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves.

Since you replaced John with the Church in Rev 4, do you replace John with the Church everywhere else too? Did the Church accompany Christ up the high mountain? If not, why not? How do you know when John is John and when John is the Church?

popeye · Jan 1, 2017

popeye said:

Saved.

Saved means saved from.

Are you trying to get us to believe all those not attending the entire 7 year Gt, are not saved?

"endure to the end" is what every believer that finishes the race does.

And BTW,When it says the AC Kills every man woman and child on the planet refusing the mark,is that a misprint,or a game changer for post tribs?

Bumped for Bluto

Answer please. No deflection please.

popeye · Jan 1, 2017

bluto said:

Again popey, your shooting your self in the foot. Secondly, you have a reading comprehension problem so what I'm going to do is take this issue by the numbers. At Matthew 24 the disciples ask Jesus a question Matt 26:3? Jesus is the first to address this question, not the Apostle Paul, not Peter, not John but Jesus. Jesus begins by saying to see to it no one misleads you. He says many will come in His name saying their the Christ. There will be wars, earthquakes, famines and you will be hated and killed. (Sounds like today).

Many false prophets will arise and btw, this is only the beginning. Then to vs13, "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. How popeye? Is this the spot where the pre-trib rapture occurs? Just asking because I'm not done yet. Notice vs14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then THE END SHALL COME." Is this the place popeye when the pre-trib takes place?

Now look at vs15, "Therefore" (why is that word therefore there for popeye?) to show that "when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). What are we to understand popeye? Starting at vs16 Jesus outlines what is going to happen from vs16 through vs28. And notice vs24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead , if possible EVEN THE ELECT." So again popeye, where do you insert the pre-trib rapture? I mean if it's almost possible to mislead the elect who are already saved why are they still here?

Now for vs29, "BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS." What happens popeye? You can read it for yourself. The rest of the chapter is dealing with other things that will happen because we are still here. Then at chapter 25 Jesus explains about the kingdom of heaven etc. The Apostle Paul in his writings and Peter and John back up everything Jesus said. And take note, I started with the words of Jesus Christ first because He is the expert who answered the disciples question? Jesus did not expound on many vials there will be or how many trumpets will sound, who will or will not take the mark of the beast, none of that. So again, you tell me where your going to insert the pre-trib rapture? Isn't Bible study fun popeye?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Yes,lets do look ay mat 24

Who is gathering? When? Where from?

That would COMPLETELY ELIMINATE YOUR CLAIM.

SO,that is one strike

Then you say ;this gospel shall be preached to the whole world and then shall the end come"

You have,in your doctrine,the church on earth doing just that,right up to the Second coming on white horses ,right?

Another bizarre impossibility. Hello? Rev 14, has both a gathering and ANGELS preaching the gospel, BEFORE YOUR SUPPOSED POST TRIB RAPTURE

THATS strike 2 &3. Yo outta there bad boy!

HisHolly · Jan 1, 2017

Saved from wrath, not tribulation... Being killed for the truth is also a date many have met.. people these days want an easy salvation... Dreamers

popeye said:

popeye · Jan 1, 2017

bluto said:

Non issue.

We both can believe the AC is revealed before the rapture. It changes nothing. The AC kicks off the GT.

THE RAPTURE might be 5 minutes after that,or 5 weeks.

It is still a pretrib rapture.

HisHolly · Jan 1, 2017

Sorry but you'll be hurt if you keep on... The meeting in the clouds happens when the dead rise.. the dead good and bad rise to go to judgement.. that doesn't happen til later..

popeye said:

Demi777 · Jan 1, 2017

It would be nice if pre-trib were true.. It would spare us from a lot.. But it wouldnt make any sense so

we will see

popeye · Jan 1, 2017

HisHolly said:

Well,the great tribulation is what Jesus called it.

I agree there is some truth to your position.

But you are saying "all tribulation" is "The great tribulation"

Which is false. You are misrepresenting our position.

I have been studying about 40 years. During that time,I have NEVER met anyone that thinks of themselves as escaping "all tribulation"

Your deal falls apart when in fact,for your supposition to be true,ALL PRETRIB ADHERENTS would have to have never suffered persecution.

You would laterally need the devil removed .

Now,if you are anti escape,what do you do with the escape verses from Jesus own lips?

Is lot also a wimpy escapist?

popeye · Jan 1, 2017

Demi777 said:

The dead in Christ are raised from the dead.

The reason there are live souls following,is because they are not dead.

Now,where in the bible,do we have any judgement,where the righteous are delivered postjudgement?

Why would agreeing with heavens protocol make " no sense"

PlainWord · Jan 1, 2017

popeye said:

I know that this wasn't addressed to me but I can't resist. We post tribbers (most of us anyway) don't believe in a 7 year future great tribulation period. We do believe in God's Wrath. You get this GT idea from a fundamental lack of understanding of Dan 9:24-27. You invent a 2,000 year gap (not taught) then extend the 70 weeks which were clearly for Daniel's people and city (and not the planet) to the whole planet Earth.

You then take Rev 20:4-6 and use it to invent a 1,000 year millennial Christ reign on earth with no other supporting scripture. You then combine these two passages (from Rev 13 and Dan 9) into a global AntiChrist false religious system whereby everyone will be killed who doesn't accept the "mark of the beast."

Rev 13: [SUP]15 [/SUP]He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Dan 9: 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

There is nothing linking these two passages!! There is no mention of anyone in Rev 13 taking away sacrifices. There is nothing in Dan 9 suggesting people will be killed who refuse a mark or to worship a certain way. (BTW, you continue to mis-quote Rev 13, so it's not a misprint, it's a Popeye misquote. Not taking the mark, the number or the name, means you can't buy or sell, it doesn't get you killed. Failure to worship the image of the beast gets you killed. Please try to get this right in the future, I beg you!!)

Next, you create a world-wide rule of this so-called AntiChrist whereby he makes the entire planet worship him. THIS IS NOT TAUGHT!!

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs..." This does not say ALL THOSE WHO LIVE ON PLANET EARTH. Look further, read this:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Notice it doesn't say the entire world must worship the image, it says "as many as would not." Does he have power over the entire planet? NO. Look back at Rev 6 to see what part of the earth he has power over:

"And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill..." He only has power over 1/4 of the earth. It is these people who live in this 1/4 of the earth who refuse to worship who are killed. Start by comparing "POWER" "(being) GIVEN or GRANTED" to "KILL." At least we have the same author using the same words.

This is how to compare passages, when like language is used. You don't have any like language between Dan 9:27 and Rev 13. You need 2 or more witness passages before you run off inventing new doctrine.

PlainWord · Jan 1, 2017

Demi777 said:

Good for you young lady. You already have far more spiritual knowledge then many who are much older than you!!

Demi777 · Jan 1, 2017

all I need in this case is common sense.. not so much spiritual knowledge.. just sayin

PlainWord said:

pottersclay · Jan 1, 2017

HisHolly said:

Absolutely true, praise God for the saints that are to be martyred, this is not that type of tribulation as we have tried to explain. It is not the rising of a bad king. A rejecting nation. This is the day of the Lord. As he said in the days of Noah he will not strive with man forever. This is when God judges, he himself comes to defend Israel. As I stated before the second coming has little if anything to do with the church, as the bride is with him when he returns. Where did they go? They were caught up in the air. This tribulation is against the wicked and un regenerate. Ever notice there is no preaching or witnessing, no baptizing. And no happy ending for those not found in Christ. Totally different.

To all the post trib and no trib believers.

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