Tongues Again???
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You know, most Christians that deny the baptism talk about changing themselves. They speak more of how they act rather than the fact that we have died and are actually a new Genesis or creation. The power of Holy Spirit doesn't just make one act nice.
It can be so bold that it will make men so angry that they pick up stones to throw. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Not the renewing Holy Spirit of fire blazing its way into the darkness to bring the light of Gods truth!
Being saved from hellfire is good. But is not all that there is.
It can be so bold that it will make men so angry that they pick up stones to throw. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Not the renewing Holy Spirit of fire blazing its way into the darkness to bring the light of Gods truth!
Being saved from hellfire is good. But is not all that there is.
J
Hi Jason, i more like spagehetti bolognese then Wiener Schnitzel with Schnauzer. Only if the Schnauzer is not to long, so that he will not hang into the meal. 
Have a blessed last day in this year 2016.
This I wish to you all folks!
Have a blessed last day in this year 2016. This I wish to you all folks!
happy new years wolf
You have showed what? Where are the verses that support your conclusion? It would seem there would be many?
It would seem you are contradicting the law in 1 Corinthians 14
Did you read the law and believe it?
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
There is nothing positive that directs a person to seek after a sign. It opposes faith as the father of lies MO.
Scripture never says seek after a sign before you believe, as that which today is called a sign gift. That was the cause of the fall. Adam and Eve sought after that seen (the Serpent) and not that not seen our invisible God. He wanted them to obey the voice of Him unseen they learned by experience rather than trusting the voice of one unseen (walking by faith )
In Matthew 24, the disciples, who believed in Jesus, asked for the sign of Jesus' coming and of the end of the age. Jesus gave them a number of signs.
He gave them information about the sorrows they would go through. No direct sign, just the nature of the events .Is sorrow the sign?
We walk by faith not by sight.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:5
He will come like a thief in the night.
When a woman wanted the venerate the flesh as a sign that one might believe (have faith) he told her it is an evil generation (natural unconverted man ) that seeks after one .But rather believe God according to the law found in 1 Corinthians 14 as those who hear prophecy (the word of God) and believe.
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. Luk 11:27
No sign before one could believe there.
Did you read the law in 1 Corinthians 14? Has it been changed as re-paraphrased below??
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, to them that believe,: but prophesying serveth for them that believe not.
One opposes the other. The Jews where always turning things upside down that way.
No such thing as sign gift .
What did Christ say in regard to sign seekers who will not believe until they see a sign below?
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
What sign did He give them so they might believe? Did he point to scripture designed for those who do believe to the salvation of their soul?
I don't think he is teaching us to be faithless, as was faithless Thomas .
Num 14:11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it before they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
Who were the signs designed for in the above verse ?Those who rebel against God not seen to show their unbelief or Moses who was following the voice of faith written in the scriptures. .
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.For the Jews "require a sign", and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; Co 1:21
The Charismatics require a sign and are adding new ones.
It would seem you are contradicting the law in 1 Corinthians 14
Did you read the law and believe it?
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
There is nothing positive that directs a person to seek after a sign. It opposes faith as the father of lies MO.
Scripture never says seek after a sign before you believe, as that which today is called a sign gift. That was the cause of the fall. Adam and Eve sought after that seen (the Serpent) and not that not seen our invisible God. He wanted them to obey the voice of Him unseen they learned by experience rather than trusting the voice of one unseen (walking by faith )
In Matthew 24, the disciples, who believed in Jesus, asked for the sign of Jesus' coming and of the end of the age. Jesus gave them a number of signs.
He gave them information about the sorrows they would go through. No direct sign, just the nature of the events .Is sorrow the sign?
We walk by faith not by sight.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:5
He will come like a thief in the night.
When a woman wanted the venerate the flesh as a sign that one might believe (have faith) he told her it is an evil generation (natural unconverted man ) that seeks after one .But rather believe God according to the law found in 1 Corinthians 14 as those who hear prophecy (the word of God) and believe.
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. Luk 11:27
No sign before one could believe there.
Did you read the law in 1 Corinthians 14? Has it been changed as re-paraphrased below??
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, to them that believe,: but prophesying serveth for them that believe not.
One opposes the other. The Jews where always turning things upside down that way.
No such thing as sign gift .
What did Christ say in regard to sign seekers who will not believe until they see a sign below?
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
What sign did He give them so they might believe? Did he point to scripture designed for those who do believe to the salvation of their soul?
I don't think he is teaching us to be faithless, as was faithless Thomas .
Num 14:11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it before they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
Who were the signs designed for in the above verse ?Those who rebel against God not seen to show their unbelief or Moses who was following the voice of faith written in the scriptures. .
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.For the Jews "require a sign", and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; Co 1:21
The Charismatics require a sign and are adding new ones.
No such thing as a second blessing. A baptism after salvation. Many fillings but only one baptism.
In place of full gospel how bout we try the full counsel of God? There is nothing in the gospel that includes the Pentecostal gifts.
Salvation is by grace received through faith.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
In place of full gospel how bout we try the full counsel of God? There is nothing in the gospel that includes the Pentecostal gifts.
Salvation is by grace received through faith.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I know, I have pointed out SEVERAL TIMES that the True TONGUES was not for the Believers, but for the Unbelieving Jews. They close their eyes and ears and continue to Trust their experience over and above what the Scripture says, even in their FAVORITE Chapter.
1 Corinthians 14:22 (ESV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
1 Corinthians 14:22 (ESV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
~Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his
hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;
I said nothing about a second blessing. I never heard this before coming coming to chat here.
Wheres your scriptures Roger?
~
Joh_20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
~
1Pe_1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Grace begins here and is by grace through faith, amen. We agree.
But, is it the power that Jesus speaks of where He said to wait for it?
It can be two separate occasions. It was for me and probably because I grew up in a church that calls the baptism of Holy Spirit, sanctification. Good people, but wrong in their understanding.
Let the Word of God speak and be true...and man the liar.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his
hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them;
I said nothing about a second blessing. I never heard this before coming coming to chat here.
Wheres your scriptures Roger?
~
Joh_20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
~
1Pe_1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Grace begins here and is by grace through faith, amen. We agree.
But, is it the power that Jesus speaks of where He said to wait for it?
It can be two separate occasions. It was for me and probably because I grew up in a church that calls the baptism of Holy Spirit, sanctification. Good people, but wrong in their understanding.
Let the Word of God speak and be true...and man the liar.
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Might want to read 1 Corinthians 14. Pentecost is not the epitome of the gift of tongues. Consider this point. Why in Acts did no one interpret the tongues being spoken (and people understood them) but later in Corinthians it speaks of a gift of tongues that needs interpretation? Could it possibly be that tongues, and the gift of tongues, serves multiple functions and is not as linear as once thought?
You are found to be in a contradiction. One tongues isn't interpreted yet understood and another is supernaturally interpreted (it is a gift of the Spirit, not a natural phenomenon of some sort by which a hearer knows the language being spoken so they can interpret) for the understanding of all. Either one was just a singular supernatural experience or the gift of tongues is multifaceted.
You are found to be in a contradiction. One tongues isn't interpreted yet understood and another is supernaturally interpreted (it is a gift of the Spirit, not a natural phenomenon of some sort by which a hearer knows the language being spoken so they can interpret) for the understanding of all. Either one was just a singular supernatural experience or the gift of tongues is multifaceted.
It is very simple. You dont need to translate the tongue if you understand the language. If you got the gift of Chinese tongue from God, no Chinese needs a translator when you will use it.
If you want to use it in English speaking church, you will obviously need a translator (with natural or supernatural gift of this language).
If you want to use it in English speaking church, you will obviously need a translator (with natural or supernatural gift of this language).
Really? Tell this to Brother Andrew.
And if this were true, don't you think that tongues would continue to convince unbelieving Jews still?
I wish that you all who resist this part of salvation, would experience the power of this awesome gift that God has given to His body. You would be so sorry for these words of unbelief.
And if this were true, don't you think that tongues would continue to convince unbelieving Jews still?
I wish that you all who resist this part of salvation, would experience the power of this awesome gift that God has given to His body. You would be so sorry for these words of unbelief.
That last sentence there is jus thuman reasoning. Notice that the text you quote does not support what you said. I referred you to a scripture in the New Testament in the very post you are quoting. The apostles asked for the sign of His coming, and Jesus gave them plenty. Signs are not only for unbelievers.
The verse you quote does not say that signs are only for unbelievers. In fact, some translations render the same passage to say that prophecy is a sign for believers, since that is the sense of the text that the Greek-reading translators picked up on.
In the Old Testament, Hezekiah asked for a sign that he would live after Isaiah prophesied he would die, Hezekiah prayed, and Isaiah came back and prophesied that he would live. He asked for the shadow to move backwards. It did.
Asking for a sign can be a bad thing if it is motivated by a lack of faith in God. But unilaterally condemning asking for a sign isn't Biblical, since you have no Biblical basis for doing that. You have no authority for making such a decree. And then condemning signs and bad is even worse, since sometimes God volunteer's signs. Isaiah even rebuked a king for not asking for a sign when instructed to do so, and said, "The LORD Himself shall give you a sign."
Your posts are full of pontifications that cannot be supported by scripture. Some directly contradict scripture. Some are just confusing and it is hard to understnad what you mean.
The first part of the sentence I can follow: "Scripture never says seek after a sign before you believe"
Sure, I agree with that. I think everyone on this forum agrees with that. Ask the average continuationist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc., and he would probably agree with you. Why the straw man arguments?
You keep arguing against straw men. I've never heard anyone in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church say you had to see a sign before you could believe God. Jews in the first century may have believed something like that specifically about accepting a new prophet or prophecy.
Some Pentecostals and Charismatics, etc. will point out something very obvious from the Bible, that some people believed after they saw signs and wonders, and that doing such things was a part of the ministry of Christ and the apostles, accompanying the preaching of the word. Paul preached the word with signs and wonders. Jesus told a man who wanted his son healed 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' Then Jesus healed his son.
Are you equating 'sign gifts' (your label) to seeking the serpent? How do you explain the fact that certain Old Testament prophets, Jesus, the apostles, and others in the early church did miracles, signs, wonders, etc?
The disciples asked him what the sign of His coming was and of the end of the age. He gave them a number of them. He even called one a 'sign', the sign of the Son of man coming in heaven.
One type of sign is a fulfilled prophecy that predicts the future. There are a number of examples of them. It is related to the Deuteronomy test of a prophet that if the thing the prophet says in the name of the LORD does not come to pass, do not be afraid of him. That's the type of sign Zecharias asked for. He got it. The angel predicted he would be mute until the child was born.
The things that would occur that Jesus predicted, that He told the apostles, that pointed to the end of the age, were signs. Asking for a sign does not have to be motivated by unbelief. The disciples wanted to know when the end of the age would come and what it would be like.
Sorry, that seems like a weird convoluted interpretation of the text. You are talking about Luke, right?
One comment was directed to the woman. The other to a thickly gathered crowed. Why would you allegoricalize this passage in such a weird way? Are the warnings about 'the flesh' related to breast-feeding babies?
Why don't we stick with a more straightforward approach to scripture. Jesus did miracles, signs and wonders. Jesus is sinless. Therefore, doing miraces, signs and wonders is not a sin. It does not show a lack of faith. Believing that God does these things is not sinful because Jesus believed it. It is not sinful to believe signs and wonders can play a role in evangelism because we see that over and over again in the New Testament. And the apostles prayed for God to stretch out His hand and do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus (Acts 4), and God answered their prayer.
You see, the apostles had a positive idea about the role of signs and wonders in evangelism. You have a negative attitude toward it. The apostles prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to do signs and wonders. You equate such things with walking by sight. Your thinking on this issue is not Biblical.
I don't get your point, of course. But you should'nt misquote a verse like that in that format or people might think that is what the verse really says.
Straw man. It is those folks on your side of the issue, who don't believe God works through signs and wonders anymore the way the Bible teaches He does, who use the phrase 'sign gift.' It gives them an argument for grouping all the gifts that don't fit with their world view together so they can do away with all of them. Otherwise, how would they jump from misusing a prooftext about tongues and prophecies to do away with gifts of healings or the working of miracles? There is no scripture about miracles ceasing. But if they create a 'sign gift' category, they can argue they all ceased together as a unit.
The New Testament passages about 'gifts' usually focus on believers edifying one another in the body. Signs and wonders are typically directed toward unbelievers in the New Testament.
You are talking about a different kind of sign. In the Matthew version, after the feeding of the 5000, Jesus gave the sign of the prophet Jonah, which spoke of the resurrection. This sign is a predictive prophecy, which, when fulfilled, is a sign of something else.
When the shadow of the stairs moved backwards, this was a sign of something in the future for Hezekiah, that his life would be extended-- that he would live and go to the house of Yahweh.
There were also signs in the form of miracles. Jesus was willing to do signs and wonders, which did help people believe. We don't deserve for God to do signs when we are in an unbelieving state. But on some occasions, God has individuals do signs, which helps people come to faith. After a man asked Jesus to heal his son, Jesus lamented, 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' Then He healed the man's son.
Thomas said he wouldn't believe unless he put his finger in the holes in Jesus' hand and put his hand into his side. Jesus appeared to him and told him to do it. He said, "and be not faithless, but believing." But he also said blessed is He who has not seen, and yet has believed.
So I see a different attitude toward these types of things in Jesus from what you believe. You seem to think signs are bad. Jesus was willing to do them in order to help people come to faith. The apostles mimicked Jesus attitude when they prayed for signs and wonders.
It is best not to post on what you are ignorant of. The Charismatic movement is diverse, and a lot of Charismatics don't emphasize 'signs and wonders' that much. The emphasis I've heard on it is from those who see them as a tool for evangelism, rather than as something for believers to seek after before they believe.
Jesus and the apostles were willing to do signs and wonders that people may believe. Jesus only gave the sign of the prophet Jonah when a crowd asked him for a sign to prove who He was.
The verse you quote does not say that signs are only for unbelievers. In fact, some translations render the same passage to say that prophecy is a sign for believers, since that is the sense of the text that the Greek-reading translators picked up on.
In the Old Testament, Hezekiah asked for a sign that he would live after Isaiah prophesied he would die, Hezekiah prayed, and Isaiah came back and prophesied that he would live. He asked for the shadow to move backwards. It did.
Asking for a sign can be a bad thing if it is motivated by a lack of faith in God. But unilaterally condemning asking for a sign isn't Biblical, since you have no Biblical basis for doing that. You have no authority for making such a decree. And then condemning signs and bad is even worse, since sometimes God volunteer's signs. Isaiah even rebuked a king for not asking for a sign when instructed to do so, and said, "The LORD Himself shall give you a sign."
Your posts are full of pontifications that cannot be supported by scripture. Some directly contradict scripture. Some are just confusing and it is hard to understnad what you mean.
The first part of the sentence I can follow: "Scripture never says seek after a sign before you believe"
Sure, I agree with that. I think everyone on this forum agrees with that. Ask the average continuationist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc., and he would probably agree with you. Why the straw man arguments?
You keep arguing against straw men. I've never heard anyone in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church say you had to see a sign before you could believe God. Jews in the first century may have believed something like that specifically about accepting a new prophet or prophecy.
Some Pentecostals and Charismatics, etc. will point out something very obvious from the Bible, that some people believed after they saw signs and wonders, and that doing such things was a part of the ministry of Christ and the apostles, accompanying the preaching of the word. Paul preached the word with signs and wonders. Jesus told a man who wanted his son healed 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' Then Jesus healed his son.
Are you equating 'sign gifts' (your label) to seeking the serpent? How do you explain the fact that certain Old Testament prophets, Jesus, the apostles, and others in the early church did miracles, signs, wonders, etc?
The disciples asked him what the sign of His coming was and of the end of the age. He gave them a number of them. He even called one a 'sign', the sign of the Son of man coming in heaven.
One type of sign is a fulfilled prophecy that predicts the future. There are a number of examples of them. It is related to the Deuteronomy test of a prophet that if the thing the prophet says in the name of the LORD does not come to pass, do not be afraid of him. That's the type of sign Zecharias asked for. He got it. The angel predicted he would be mute until the child was born.
The things that would occur that Jesus predicted, that He told the apostles, that pointed to the end of the age, were signs. Asking for a sign does not have to be motivated by unbelief. The disciples wanted to know when the end of the age would come and what it would be like.
Sorry, that seems like a weird convoluted interpretation of the text. You are talking about Luke, right?
One comment was directed to the woman. The other to a thickly gathered crowed. Why would you allegoricalize this passage in such a weird way? Are the warnings about 'the flesh' related to breast-feeding babies?
Why don't we stick with a more straightforward approach to scripture. Jesus did miracles, signs and wonders. Jesus is sinless. Therefore, doing miraces, signs and wonders is not a sin. It does not show a lack of faith. Believing that God does these things is not sinful because Jesus believed it. It is not sinful to believe signs and wonders can play a role in evangelism because we see that over and over again in the New Testament. And the apostles prayed for God to stretch out His hand and do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus (Acts 4), and God answered their prayer.
You see, the apostles had a positive idea about the role of signs and wonders in evangelism. You have a negative attitude toward it. The apostles prayed for God to stretch forth His hand to do signs and wonders. You equate such things with walking by sight. Your thinking on this issue is not Biblical.
I don't get your point, of course. But you should'nt misquote a verse like that in that format or people might think that is what the verse really says.
Straw man. It is those folks on your side of the issue, who don't believe God works through signs and wonders anymore the way the Bible teaches He does, who use the phrase 'sign gift.' It gives them an argument for grouping all the gifts that don't fit with their world view together so they can do away with all of them. Otherwise, how would they jump from misusing a prooftext about tongues and prophecies to do away with gifts of healings or the working of miracles? There is no scripture about miracles ceasing. But if they create a 'sign gift' category, they can argue they all ceased together as a unit.
The New Testament passages about 'gifts' usually focus on believers edifying one another in the body. Signs and wonders are typically directed toward unbelievers in the New Testament.
You are talking about a different kind of sign. In the Matthew version, after the feeding of the 5000, Jesus gave the sign of the prophet Jonah, which spoke of the resurrection. This sign is a predictive prophecy, which, when fulfilled, is a sign of something else.
When the shadow of the stairs moved backwards, this was a sign of something in the future for Hezekiah, that his life would be extended-- that he would live and go to the house of Yahweh.
There were also signs in the form of miracles. Jesus was willing to do signs and wonders, which did help people believe. We don't deserve for God to do signs when we are in an unbelieving state. But on some occasions, God has individuals do signs, which helps people come to faith. After a man asked Jesus to heal his son, Jesus lamented, 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.' Then He healed the man's son.
Thomas said he wouldn't believe unless he put his finger in the holes in Jesus' hand and put his hand into his side. Jesus appeared to him and told him to do it. He said, "and be not faithless, but believing." But he also said blessed is He who has not seen, and yet has believed.
So I see a different attitude toward these types of things in Jesus from what you believe. You seem to think signs are bad. Jesus was willing to do them in order to help people come to faith. The apostles mimicked Jesus attitude when they prayed for signs and wonders.
It is best not to post on what you are ignorant of. The Charismatic movement is diverse, and a lot of Charismatics don't emphasize 'signs and wonders' that much. The emphasis I've heard on it is from those who see them as a tool for evangelism, rather than as something for believers to seek after before they believe.
Jesus and the apostles were willing to do signs and wonders that people may believe. Jesus only gave the sign of the prophet Jonah when a crowd asked him for a sign to prove who He was.