Tongues Again???
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You might want to interpret it correctly. In Corinth there were some who had seen CHRIST after His Resurrection, and it is even possible that a few may have been in the Upper room when the women returned from the TOMB. The Church at Corinth got it's start in the Synagogue in Corinth, so there were unbelieving JEWS present to hear in their own dialektos.
In Corinth it was also the Custom to share meals frequently with neighbors. And the Church was meeting right next door to the Synagogue. SO THERE CERTAINLY WERE UNBELIEVING JEWS TO HEAR THE GENUINE TONGUES IN THEIR OWN NATIVE DIALECTS.
There is nothing in the gospels regarding speaking in tongues because: In the last day that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:37-39 Please note this does not say "the apostles only" . . . it says "any man" and "they that believe on him".
The event at Pentecost was the initial outpouring of the gift of holy spirit . . . Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the holy spirit, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33
This event is the same gift that is given to all that believe . . . It was miraculous in this context because those present heard the apostles, which were apparently Galilaeans, speak the wonderful works of God in their own language which the apostles did not previously know.
Then the gift of holy spirit was poured out upon the Gentiles while Peter was speaking the gospel to them and it was the same gift given to the apostles on Pentecost . . . "because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of holy spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." How did they know that the Gentiles were born of God and had received the gift of holy spirit as well as them? It was manifested forth by way of speaking with tongues just as 1 Cor. 12 speaks of the manifestation of the Spirit and list them. Again, not just for the apostles but for "those that believe". The letter to the Corinthians was written to the church at Corinth but it is also addressed "to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:".
The event at Pentecost was the initial outpouring of the gift of holy spirit . . . Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the holy spirit, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33
This event is the same gift that is given to all that believe . . . It was miraculous in this context because those present heard the apostles, which were apparently Galilaeans, speak the wonderful works of God in their own language which the apostles did not previously know.
Then the gift of holy spirit was poured out upon the Gentiles while Peter was speaking the gospel to them and it was the same gift given to the apostles on Pentecost . . . "because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of holy spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." How did they know that the Gentiles were born of God and had received the gift of holy spirit as well as them? It was manifested forth by way of speaking with tongues just as 1 Cor. 12 speaks of the manifestation of the Spirit and list them. Again, not just for the apostles but for "those that believe". The letter to the Corinthians was written to the church at Corinth but it is also addressed "to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:".
The problem with the church is that it has not investigated Jewish thought. The Jews are taught being born again. When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He gives him further teaching that he must be born of water (baptism, repentance, follow the Mosaic law, plus other steps of instruction to "see" the Kingdom, but to enter, one must also be born of Spirit. Nicodemus didn't understand this nor did any until after the resurrection. This is the stage if you will, of a believer of the Cross of Jesus and His blood sacrifice as High Priest before the Presence. His Breath....He breathes on His own and they are born of His Spirit.
Pentecost is the Anointing of Holy Spirit, the release of Holy Spirit in the believer to do the same works that Jesus did.
It can be two separate experiences or simultaneous. Both is recorded in scripture.
The church I grew up in preached repentance, and water baptism. That was it but also a lot of superstitious fear of the supernatural.
Tongues was all I knew about these crazy holy rollers. It's what I heard, what I thought, until He touched me.
This is another thread I know, but am including this...it's a mistake to divorce oneself from the root where we are grafted into.
My last post on this very important issue of Anointing for service.
Pentecost is the Anointing of Holy Spirit, the release of Holy Spirit in the believer to do the same works that Jesus did.
It can be two separate experiences or simultaneous. Both is recorded in scripture.
The church I grew up in preached repentance, and water baptism. That was it but also a lot of superstitious fear of the supernatural.
Tongues was all I knew about these crazy holy rollers. It's what I heard, what I thought, until He touched me.
This is another thread I know, but am including this...it's a mistake to divorce oneself from the root where we are grafted into.
My last post on this very important issue of Anointing for service.
I don't see how this answers the quote from BenFTW about the fact that in Corinth, the speaking in tongues had to be interpreted by the gift of interpretation of tongues, and others present did not naturally understand the language.
Got started from people in the synagogue? Yes. The other part is speculation.
I wonder what ancient source you could show that in Corinth people were more likely to share meals with neighbors than in other places.
As far as the location of the church meeting, at first it was in a building connected to the synagogue. But by the time Paul wrote Romans from Corinth, he wrote 'Gaius mine host and of the whole church.' So how do we know whether the church meeting moved from the house connected to the synagogue to Gaius house yet when I Corinthians was written? It's just speculation.
In the second century there were Jewish synagogues that would level curses aimed at Christians and have the synagogue repeat them to keep Christians out. Jewish people would also not keep company with certain people they considered sinners. And the Pharisees wanted to kick people out of the synagogue at one point if they believed in Jesus as we see in the book of John. We see this in the Gospels when Jesus would restore social outcasts, eat with publicans and such. We also see in I Corinthians, Paul's instructions not to keep company with one who is called a brother who is a fornicator. Paul had shaken out his clothes against those who opposed the word in the synagogue. It is possible that the synagogue attenders had ostracized Christians and would not eat with them, especially since so many of them were Gentiles by the time I Corinthians was written.
There is certainly no guarantee that the Jews would have come to Christian meetings. I suppose we could invent a scenario that the Corinthian church was yelling in tongues so loud the synagogue next door could hear, but the passage doesn't say that. It doesn't say in the scenario that Paul presents that tongues are a sign to unbelieving Jews, but rather to unbelievers.
And there do not have to be any unbelievers present for tongues to function. Paul is actually using this as part of his argument for the superiority of prophecy to tongues. Tongues results in unbelief in the scenario he provides. He says "If" and unbeliever or unlearned comes into the assembly and all speak in tongues. It says if. They could all speak in tongues without the unbeliever coming in (and still need instruction on order). Tongues also edifies the speaker, and the interpretation edifies the church.
It is ridiculous to insist that there must be an unbelieving Jew present for tongues to be spoken. That's not the point Paul is making at all. It does not fit the flow of argument. All these ideas throughout the passage are interconnected. He is making an argument that flows throughout the passage. And this idea that unbelieving Jews had to be present doesn't even show up in the passage, and it is not the argument that Paul is making. 'Divers tongues' and 'interpretation' are among the gifts of the Spirit given to members of the body 'to profit withal.'
I really don't get this insistence that unbelieving Jews must be present. It seems to be motivated by some sort of desire to grasp at straws if necessary to come up with a polemic against speaking in tongues. Since there are unbelieving Jews in the world today, there isn't even an argument here for cessationism.
Got started from people in the synagogue? Yes. The other part is speculation.
I wonder what ancient source you could show that in Corinth people were more likely to share meals with neighbors than in other places.
As far as the location of the church meeting, at first it was in a building connected to the synagogue. But by the time Paul wrote Romans from Corinth, he wrote 'Gaius mine host and of the whole church.' So how do we know whether the church meeting moved from the house connected to the synagogue to Gaius house yet when I Corinthians was written? It's just speculation.
In the second century there were Jewish synagogues that would level curses aimed at Christians and have the synagogue repeat them to keep Christians out. Jewish people would also not keep company with certain people they considered sinners. And the Pharisees wanted to kick people out of the synagogue at one point if they believed in Jesus as we see in the book of John. We see this in the Gospels when Jesus would restore social outcasts, eat with publicans and such. We also see in I Corinthians, Paul's instructions not to keep company with one who is called a brother who is a fornicator. Paul had shaken out his clothes against those who opposed the word in the synagogue. It is possible that the synagogue attenders had ostracized Christians and would not eat with them, especially since so many of them were Gentiles by the time I Corinthians was written.
There is certainly no guarantee that the Jews would have come to Christian meetings. I suppose we could invent a scenario that the Corinthian church was yelling in tongues so loud the synagogue next door could hear, but the passage doesn't say that. It doesn't say in the scenario that Paul presents that tongues are a sign to unbelieving Jews, but rather to unbelievers.
And there do not have to be any unbelievers present for tongues to function. Paul is actually using this as part of his argument for the superiority of prophecy to tongues. Tongues results in unbelief in the scenario he provides. He says "If" and unbeliever or unlearned comes into the assembly and all speak in tongues. It says if. They could all speak in tongues without the unbeliever coming in (and still need instruction on order). Tongues also edifies the speaker, and the interpretation edifies the church.
It is ridiculous to insist that there must be an unbelieving Jew present for tongues to be spoken. That's not the point Paul is making at all. It does not fit the flow of argument. All these ideas throughout the passage are interconnected. He is making an argument that flows throughout the passage. And this idea that unbelieving Jews had to be present doesn't even show up in the passage, and it is not the argument that Paul is making. 'Divers tongues' and 'interpretation' are among the gifts of the Spirit given to members of the body 'to profit withal.'
I really don't get this insistence that unbelieving Jews must be present. It seems to be motivated by some sort of desire to grasp at straws if necessary to come up with a polemic against speaking in tongues. Since there are unbelieving Jews in the world today, there isn't even an argument here for cessationism.
The assumption that dialektos in Greek refers to a particular accent seems unjustified to me. I'd want to see proof of it. The New Testament refers to the Hebrew dialektos. So Hebrew is a 'dialektos'. That sounds like another word for 'language' rather than accent per se.
It's a minute point, but I've seen a couple of posts that present this idea.
It's a minute point, but I've seen a couple of posts that present this idea.
I have to wonder how come so many TRIVIALIZE or just PLAIN IGNORE that when Apostles spoke EVERY unbelieving Jew Present HEARD, NOT GIBBERISH, but rather HEARD them proclaiming the Mighty Works of GOD, in their own native Dialect. And then pat themselves on the back and say, "See there, we do the same thing." Which is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE TRUTH.
And look at the example of what happened at the house of Cornelius.
Acts 10:44-48 (GW)
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came to everyone who heard his message.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the believers who were circumcised and who had come with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured on people who were not Jewish.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] They heard these non-Jewish people speaking in other languages and praising God. {NOT GIBBERISH} Then Peter said,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “No one can refuse to baptize these people with water. They have received the Holy Spirit in the same way that we did.”
[SUP]48 [/SUP] So Peter ordered that they should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for several days.
1. THAT MEANS THE MIGHTY WIND HAD TO BE THERE, AND
2. THE TONGUES OF FIRE HAD TO BE THERE, AND
3. THE HEARING OF THE TONGUES IN THEIR OWN DIALECT WAS PRESENT IN THOSE JEWS WITH PETER WHO DID NOT BELIEVE GOD WOULD SAVE GENTILES TO THE SAME DEGREE AS JEWS.
And still many IGNORE all of that proof, and still say, "See there, we do the same thing."
And look at the example of what happened at the house of Cornelius.
Acts 10:44-48 (GW)
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came to everyone who heard his message.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the believers who were circumcised and who had come with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured on people who were not Jewish.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] They heard these non-Jewish people speaking in other languages and praising God. {NOT GIBBERISH} Then Peter said,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “No one can refuse to baptize these people with water. They have received the Holy Spirit in the same way that we did.”
[SUP]48 [/SUP] So Peter ordered that they should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for several days.
1. THAT MEANS THE MIGHTY WIND HAD TO BE THERE, AND
2. THE TONGUES OF FIRE HAD TO BE THERE, AND
3. THE HEARING OF THE TONGUES IN THEIR OWN DIALECT WAS PRESENT IN THOSE JEWS WITH PETER WHO DID NOT BELIEVE GOD WOULD SAVE GENTILES TO THE SAME DEGREE AS JEWS.
And still many IGNORE all of that proof, and still say, "See there, we do the same thing."
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JEWISH THOUGHT was is if the Tongues are NOT identical to what happened to the Apostles, it was a counterfeit. Are you sure you want to go there.
So did you guys make your own book definitions for words like Pentecost, or just change the original meanings?
Pentecost is Shavuot or the Festival of Weeks.
[quote]Since Shavuot occurs 49 days after the first day of Passover (i.e. the 50th day, including Passover itself), Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day"). According to Jewish tradition, Pentecost commemorates God's giving of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, 49 days after the Exodus.[/quote]
AND
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How can you not grasp that the tongues at Pentecost didn't need a translation but the gift of tongues spoken of in Corinthians does? If the gift is the ability to simply address a foreigner in their native tongue, why then does someone need to interpret (with a supernatural gift of interpretation)? They wouldn't need an interpreter they would just be speaking in the language of those present. Even in an English speaking congregation the gift of tongues then would be in English.
However, scripture doesn't say what you are implying about the gift. It expressly states no one would understand or neither could they "amen" your praises in the spirit if there is no interpretation. Hence, the gift isn't solely for the purpose of addressing another in their native tongue though possible.
However, scripture doesn't say what you are implying about the gift. It expressly states no one would understand or neither could they "amen" your praises in the spirit if there is no interpretation. Hence, the gift isn't solely for the purpose of addressing another in their native tongue though possible.
Jewish thought? Jewish thought? People commonly use 'Jew' to refer to an ethnic group and a religion. The religion commonly called 'Jewish' doesn't believe in Jesus. But using the term 'Jew' Biblically, there are some who do, who call themselves Messianic Jews. My impression is that Messianic Jews typically believe in gifts of the Spirit. A friend of mine involved in the Messianic movement who spent years in Israel said that it is unusual for Messianics not to be Charismatic. Even the ones he knew who had a relationship with the Church of Christ movement in the US were Charismatics or Continuationists.Jews do not have to be present for speaking in tongues to be identical to what happened to the apostles. There is no reason to think that the Corinthian's speaking in tongues was different from the apostles. Paul seemed to think of it as the same thing he, an apostle, did, since he said, "I speak in tongues more than ye all, yet in the church, I woudl rather speak five words with the understanding, that i may instruct others, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue". Why would Paul rather speak with the understanding if he were in church than speak in tongues? In context, we can see that it is because other people would not have understood him speaking in tongues, just like the scenario he just addressed of the one who gives thanks well in tongues, but the other is not edified.If Paul spoke in tongues, other peopel would not have been able to understand, either.The difference between the situation in Acts 2 and I Corinthians, one difference at least, is that there were people present in Acts 2 who understood what was spoken in tongues. But that is not the norm. The norm is 'no man understandeth him.' The tongues were the same thing, languages given by the Spirit. The people present were different.
Maybe he can't grasp it because it makes no sense at all. 'Received the Holy Ghost the same as we" has to do with receiving the Holy Ghost. If we receive the Holy Ghost just like the apostles have, the people present don't have to be the same as when the apostles did. The time of day does not have to be the same. The day of the year does not have to be the same. We don't have to be wearing the same kind of robes. We don't have to have unshaven corners of our bearts or be wearing phylacteries or tassles on the corners of our garments like the Jewish apostles may have. We don't have to be located near David's tomb in Jerusalem. The Spirit of God needs to be the same Spirit of God, and we need to receive it.
What do you mean that it is not 'another Earthly language'. Do you mean it is a language not spoken on earth?
If you mean the ability to speak comes from the Spirit of God and it isn't just taking Spanish classes, I agree with you.
But if you mean tongues is a heavenly code language, I don't. Paul said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..." Insisting that tongues always be some kind of nonhuman language makes less sense than arguing it can't be tongues of angels. In Acts 2, they were speaking in languages the people could understand. There are several testimonies from the Azusa Street revival of people hearing and understanding their own language.
If you mean the ability to speak comes from the Spirit of God and it isn't just taking Spanish classes, I agree with you.
But if you mean tongues is a heavenly code language, I don't. Paul said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..." Insisting that tongues always be some kind of nonhuman language makes less sense than arguing it can't be tongues of angels. In Acts 2, they were speaking in languages the people could understand. There are several testimonies from the Azusa Street revival of people hearing and understanding their own language.
There were stories that came out of Azusa Street which have never been confirmed to be true. When this movement first started they were claiming that they were speaking known languages until some language experts checked it out and found it was not so. After careful study I came to the conclusion that what happened at Azusa street was not of the Lord, therefore much of what is happening in Pentecostal meetings is not of the Lord. I was in the Pentecostal movement for a very long time, what attracted me to it was a belief, found by reading the bible, that the gifts of the Spirit are still in effect. At the time I thought that Pentecostals were like mainstream Christians with the exception that they believed the gifts of the Spirit were still in effect(something I believed). After many years of observation and study I have found that Pentecostalism teaches many errors and has an environment that promotes false spirits in the church. Pentecostalism is today taking over the church and teaching some false doctrines that will get the church ready for the great deception.
I am not promoting a denomination,but Pentecostals believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior,and His blood washes away sins,and to abstain from sin by the Holy Spirit.
The spiritual deception Jesus warned us about,and the falling away of man is actually what is in 1 Timothy 4:1-5,that is an interpretation of the Bible based on the occult,believing in the harnessing of nature for power,that will unify the religions,with a false interpretation of all religions not compatible to their occult interpretation of religion,which at that time people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lust(2 Timothy 4:2-4),which the new age movement will give them,which will lead the way to the beast kingdom.
This false interpretation of the Bible does not claim Jesus as Lord and Savior,but a great teacher in spiritual enlightenment,and an ascended master,and Avatar,which in the unified religious system,all are valid for spiritual enlightenment,and whatever path you want to take.
The spiritual deception Jesus warned us about,and the falling away of man is actually what is in 1 Timothy 4:1-5,that is an interpretation of the Bible based on the occult,believing in the harnessing of nature for power,that will unify the religions,with a false interpretation of all religions not compatible to their occult interpretation of religion,which at that time people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lust(2 Timothy 4:2-4),which the new age movement will give them,which will lead the way to the beast kingdom.
This false interpretation of the Bible does not claim Jesus as Lord and Savior,but a great teacher in spiritual enlightenment,and an ascended master,and Avatar,which in the unified religious system,all are valid for spiritual enlightenment,and whatever path you want to take.
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Now now that was not thinking on your part.
As I explained just a few posts ago, it says all of them there at Pentecost were Jews, and they all heard in their native dialects. In Corinth the majority of the Congregation were NOT Jews, NOT HEARING in their own Dialect, but unbelieving Jews from the Synagogue next door, coming over for the customary love feast, would have been HEARING in their own dialect, the GENUINE TONGUES. Sometimes is pays to study History too. Now figure it out.
1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Pentecost is Shavuot or the Festival of Weeks.
AND
Now, if you were a Gentile, what is one of the MAIN WEEKS that you would not plan a vacation to Jerusalem; unless you WERE VERY FOND of sleeping in alleys, because all rooms are reserved Many MONTHS in advance by JEWS.
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Pays to study history? Huh? I don't see a superior understanding of history in VCO's posts. What I see is ignoring the scenario Paul addresses in I Corinthians 14, and arguing for a scenario he does not propose.
The church in Corinth met next door to the synagogue for part of the time we see in the New Testament. For part of the time Gaius was the church's host. We don't know where they were when I Corinthians 14 was written. But Paul doesn't say Jews were coming next door. They might have shunned the Christians, especially if many of them were Gentiles, even though they were located next door. I'm sure there is some synagogue next door to a church somewhere in some big city where the Jews don't come over to visit the church quite often.
And this post ignores the fact that Paul is addressing a situation where no one present understands the language unless it is interpreted.
Again, we need to stick with the text.
VCO was promoting John MacArthur's view that the tongues were pagan in origin previously. I guess he's upgraded tongues to languages Jews next door could understand. Maybe that is an improvement.
We need to keep in mind that God's purposes and unbelieving Jews and Greeks purposes and requirements are not always the same.
The church in Corinth met next door to the synagogue for part of the time we see in the New Testament. For part of the time Gaius was the church's host. We don't know where they were when I Corinthians 14 was written. But Paul doesn't say Jews were coming next door. They might have shunned the Christians, especially if many of them were Gentiles, even though they were located next door. I'm sure there is some synagogue next door to a church somewhere in some big city where the Jews don't come over to visit the church quite often.
And this post ignores the fact that Paul is addressing a situation where no one present understands the language unless it is interpreted.
Again, we need to stick with the text.
VCO was promoting John MacArthur's view that the tongues were pagan in origin previously. I guess he's upgraded tongues to languages Jews next door could understand. Maybe that is an improvement.
We need to keep in mind that God's purposes and unbelieving Jews and Greeks purposes and requirements are not always the same.
Happy and blessed New Year! Thank you for reply. Sorry to say, but you should not trust the doctrine of Bill Britton. He is a false teacher who denys that Jesus is full God and full human. He teaches also that it is possible to live sinless.
I dont think we come to a right conclusion, if we read more in that what is written as it is in fact is.
Yes, we are a new creation as the bible said and this truth will be revealed when Jesus comes back. Not before!
Back to my question: Where it is written that all believers can speak in tongues? And how a christian can receive the gift, as it the bibel said in the epistels (Ephesians, 1. Coritnthians) ore as the pentecostal/charismatic teaches through the 2. baptising with the Holy Spirit?
I dont think we come to a right conclusion, if we read more in that what is written as it is in fact is.
Yes, we are a new creation as the bible said and this truth will be revealed when Jesus comes back. Not before!
Back to my question: Where it is written that all believers can speak in tongues? And how a christian can receive the gift, as it the bibel said in the epistels (Ephesians, 1. Coritnthians) ore as the pentecostal/charismatic teaches through the 2. baptising with the Holy Spirit?