Did Christ do enough to save us?

[John146]

Christ is the Savior of the world,and His blood washes away our sins,and we receive the Spirit,and are saved.

But after we are saved then the responsibility falls on us to maintain that salvation,for God will not twist our arm to do right,but we must make the decision to keeping doing right.

This is the job of the Holy Spirit, God's seal upon the believer's unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Is it our works that guarantee the day of redemption or is it the Holy Spirit? What is the redemption?

Romans 8:23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The day of redemption is when we are fully adopted and receive our glorified bodies.

 

[preacher4truth]

Again i agree but this is simply the fruit of a heart that has been transformed. In conclusion when you become a Christian by the Grace of God alone, the things you listed WILL INDEED follow.

So you agree with the statement "Did Christ do enough to save us? No." If not, then realize the balance of his OP follows this question and provided answer and must be interpreted from that context.

 

[preacher4truth]

Like I said, you're free to your way of doing things. Peace!!

Right? Or, I could be obedient and follow the Scriptures, not pragmatism and patronization of false teachers.

 

[nowyouseem033]

As I discuss this with people, and look at my own life, I am not sure labels help.
We know the road we are on, we know where we are headed so we go there.

People come and argue and say we never started the path, or have left the path and they
are on the right path now and we should join them.

So I would rather just put it all together, and say this is our walk.

A common experience is people come to faith, struggle, fall away, come back, deal with issues,
go cold, warm up etc. Where we are, and was this experience real salvation or that, becomes a
bit arbitary, but I think it is important to talk about the whole, which I am attempting to do.

Well in attempt to put it all together you have just made salvation more than just believing and now reduced it to a methodology. The things you mentioned fall into the category of a believers sanctification not salvation. Salvation is of the LORD! Though what you have written is encouraging, which it is, we must never confuse it with salvation but recognise those things are for me nd you to do now and today amongst our Christian walk not to be saved as we already are. Therefore again Christs atonement is indeed sufficient and enough, period.

 

[NewWine]

Right? Or, I could be obedient and follow the Scriptures, not pragmatism and patronization of false teachers.

I suppose I could be cranky also, and bite at your baiting me, but I choose to nap instead....nighty night.

 

[PeterJens]

Good description of your false teaching. You nailed yourself.

p4t - this response is a typical observation, which brings condemnation but not of what.

Which aspect of our response to Christ and the cross is false teaching?
If you cannot find anything or express it, then you are just creating empty words.

I have been astounded at "believers" who think this is spiritual wisdom.
It is just propoganda, slander and bullying. Say what you mean, and if you cannot
then you have nothing to say.

 

[nowyouseem033]

So you agree with the statement "Did Christ do enough to save us? No." If not, then realize the balance of his OP follows this question and provided answer and must be interpreted from that context.

Oh i definitely dont agree with this statement haha you knew that before you even asked hehe

 

[preacher4truth]

p4t - this response is a typical observation, which brings condemnation but not of what.

Yes, all the while since your OP you have been condemning all others, and now you take issue with receiving the same?

Which aspect of our response to Christ and the cross is false teaching?
If you cannot find anything or express it, then you are just creating empty words.

I've already treated your errors in past responses. As stated, you conflate evidence of salvation with a false works gospel.

I have been astounded at "believers" who think this is spiritual wisdom.
It is just propoganda, slander and bullying. Say what you mean, and if you cannot
then you have nothing to say.

I've stated what I mean -- you're a false teacher preaching a false gospel. If you call this bullying and slander, then I am behaving no differently than you in your OP, all the while I will avoid putting believers like yourself in parentheses in order to demean and cast doubt. All I am doing is exposing your false teachings, and calling you out on them.

You need to learn the difference between prescriptive and descriptive texts, you don't know the difference. All false sects do what you do and in turn preach a false gospel of works salvation.

 

[PeterJens]

Well in attempt to put it all together you have just made salvation more than just believing and now reduced it to a methodology. The things you mentioned fall into the category of a believers sanctification not salvation. Salvation is of the LORD! Though what you have written is encouraging, which it is, we must never confuse it with salvation but recognise those things are for me nd you to do now and today amongst our Christian walk not to be saved as we already are. Therefore again Christs atonement is indeed sufficient and enough, period.

I am not trying to have a methodology, I am pointing out highlights which other theological
positions are denying. It is true that Jesus sanctifies us, but this happens as a result of our actions.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If we do not confess our sins, then we will not be forgiven or purified.
ie sanctification is dependent on confession.

Equally in the Lords prayer we will not be forgiven unless we forgive others.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, forgiveness was given and then taken back.
This was given as a warning against presumption, and that a relationship is alive and
real, though we think of things of done and certain, we will be in trouble if we dishonour
the relationship with the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

As stated, you conflate evidence of salvation with a false works gospel.

This is not a statement, it is a summary. Now I wrote a list with 6 items and you cannot
even link with any of them. So you have no answer at all.

Not exactly a cogent position. But then you must be scared of declaring anything to
dismiss something and then say nothing, not a winning tactic.

 

[PeterJens]

A conflated gospel to these guys terms is anyone who says we need to be obedient
to Christ.

So you show your faith by staying in sin and being rebellious. No.

We are the sum of our thoughts and actions. So if our thoughts and actions mean
we are not a believer, God will still save us? Nope.

 

[Persuaded]

This is a key question. Did Christ do enough to save us?
No.

We have to
1. Repent of our sins
2. Believe on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins
3. Follow Jesus
4. Obey Jesus's commands
5. Dwell in Gods word
6. Walk in the Spirit, in communion with God

Now you could add to this list or expand each item.

Some say Christ has done enough, and we need to do nothing but believe.

Jesus describes himself as the Shepherd.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:11

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:13-14

We are called to follow, to follow the road that leads to life.
If you are following, it takes effort and you are doing actual work.

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30

A yoke is about being alongside another and taking their road and learning how to
walk it.

All of the above implies Christ has laid the way to salvation, but we have to walk it
to follow, to put effort in, to choose, to make decisions and fight the good fight.

So it is hard to believe people who say they know scripture, yet claim they
need do nothing and Christ has done it all, it is just resting and reaping.

This is just heresy.

Thanks for the post.
You have finally come out of the closet.
You are working your way to heaven.
I can now ignore all you future post as heresy.
Thanks again.

 

[nowyouseem033]

I am not trying to have a methodology, I am pointing out highlights which other theological
positions are denying. It is true that Jesus sanctifies us, but this happens as a result of our actions.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If we do not confess our sins, then we will not be forgiven or purified.
ie sanctification is dependent on confession.

Equally in the Lords prayer we will not be forgiven unless we forgive others.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, forgiveness was given and then taken back.
This was given as a warning against presumption, and that a relationship is alive and
real, though we think of things of done and certain, we will be in trouble if we dishonour
the relationship with the Lord.

A number of problems with this post. True that there are other theological positions which deny these things but the claims you have made without distinction have equally gone to the other extreme and NOW have in turn denied that Christ has done enough which is what you said. Jesus sanctifies us because of the Spirit and the Spirit works in us to demonstrate the fruits thereof. It is Not claiming that sanctification is due to us or our workings etc but due to the Spirit which works in us. The Spirit works in us to produce works. Unfortunately you put a huge emphasis on mans effort and motivation without realising that none of this can actually happen without the Spirit of God prompting and ministering to us.

 

[PeterJens]

Thanks for the post.
You have finally come out of the closet.
You are working your way to heaven.
I can now ignore all you future post as heresy.
Thanks again.

Thank you for your assessment.

If obeying Christ, being transformed by the Holy Spirit, having His word in my heart is
heresy, then you are not part of the Kingdom, which largely was the dividing line I wanted
to draw, so thankyou for declaring which side you are standing on.

 

[Angela53510]

True faith in Christ WILL produce works FACT! Everything you mentioned about what takes place is not prescriptive in order to become a Christian it is descriptive of somebody who is a Christian.
How can one repent without Gods intervention?
How can one obey without Gods intervention?
The signs of repentance and obedience to Christ are simply the fruit of a heart thats already been changed and transformed. This is how one CAN repent and do all those things you mentioned. I understand what your saying but Jesus sufficiency on the cross is enough, period.

John 19:30 "...It is finished"

Thank you! You said it much better than I could!

 

[nowyouseem033]

I am not trying to have a methodology, I am pointing out highlights which other theological
positions are denying. It is true that Jesus sanctifies us, but this happens as a result of our actions.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If we do not confess our sins, then we will not be forgiven or purified.
ie sanctification is dependent on confession.

Equally in the Lords prayer we will not be forgiven unless we forgive others.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, forgiveness was given and then taken back.
This was given as a warning against presumption, and that a relationship is alive and
real, though we think of things of done and certain, we will be in trouble if we dishonour
the relationship with the Lord.

sanctification is not dependent on our confession. You make these blanket statements but again fail to rightly understand the PROCESS OF SANCTIFICATION. We are saved by Gods Grace. Because we are saved we WILL INDEED CONFESS THESE SINS. Not to be saved again and again but to reflect the nature that we have now become. A new creature

 

[nowyouseem033]

Thank you! You said it much better than I could!

Glad to be an interpreter of various tongues. hehe

 

[PeterJens]

A number of problems with this post. True that there are other theological positions which deny these things but the claims you have made without distinction have equally gone to the other extreme and NOW have in turn denied that Christ has done enough which is what you said. Jesus sanctifies us because of the Spirit and the Spirit works in us to demonstrate the fruits thereof. It is Not claiming that sanctification is due to us or our workings etc but due to the Spirit which works in us. The Spirit works in us to produce works. Unfortunately you put a huge emphasis on mans effort and motivation without realising that none of this can actually happen without the Spirit of God prompting and ministering to us.

This discussion has been part of the tension of christian thought since Christ.
How much is choice and how much election.

And nothing happens without Gods involvement. But God has given us the power to choose.
He has given us the choice to follow or ignore it all. You see it in every believer you meet.
They are the sum of their choice and the blessing God has given them based on where they
have reached. It is stunning to see how much the Lord will give if we walk, but not until.

His heart throughout the law and the gospels is do this little thing, and I will shower you with
blessing and help, but you need to take the step. I know this in my own spiritual life, which
I always find amazing, as the Lord as all the power, so why am I involved, but this is His way.

And it is not a huge emphasis, it is like just us saying yes, that was bad, sorry, yep I will do
this etc. Without this we are not involved, which is a massive difference.

 

[preacher4truth]

A conflated gospel to these guys terms is anyone who says we need to be obedient
to Christ.

See, you cannot follow. No one said 'a conflated gospel'. What was stated is that you conflate the evidence of salvation, things that the truly converted do, as a works gospel, that is, that they must do these things to be saved when it is a fact they are doing these things because they are saved. So, that being said, you're not preaching a conflated gospel, but a false gospel, a truncated version, with other things added in. In reality, what you are truly preaching is the false gospel of Rome.

So you show your faith by staying in sin and being rebellious. No.

Straw man, no person here has even implied this.

We are the sum of our thoughts and actions. So if our thoughts and actions mean
we are not a believer, God will still save us? Nope.

No, we are accepted in the beloved Ephesians 1:6, and are the sum of His actions, not ours. The fruit we produce all goes to His glory. The above is the logical conclusion of your false teachings, always pointing to self, not to Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

sanctification is not dependent on our confession. You make these blanket statements but again fail to rightly understand the PROCESS OF SANCTIFICATION. We are saved by Gods Grace. Because we are saved we WILL INDEED CONFESS THESE SINS. Not to be saved again and again but to reflect the nature that we have now become. A new creature

You touch on something, which again I have found true. Until we confess something, it
is just in our thoughts, a possibility of a position. Something spiritual takes place when
we confess, we feel it in our souls. I do not talk about gaining and loosing salvation, I
am talking about dealing with issues or leaving them alone.

Faith for me is the cornerstone of salvation, which if we loose we loose our salvation
and relationship. It is why Jesus prayed for Peters faith to stay strong, even when
he denied Christ. Judas fell away, if he ever really believed.

I sometimes wonder if our over analysis helps sometimes or tries to define and separate that
which cannot be separated. Like faith and works, love and hope, righteousness and purity.

In one sense we are saved before the beginning of time, written in the lambs book of life,
yet we choose to respond to Christs prompting. We are sheep uniquely set so we respond,
but still salvation is available to all, yet only the elect respond.

Now to those despondant in legalism, it is easier to dump the transformed life, because it
evades them, but I would rather say they have never known Christ in the sense I mean.