Women Pastors? Help me.

[KJV1611]

1 Timothy 2:12King James Version (KJV)

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


1 Timothy 2:12New International Version (NIV)

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.


1 Timothy 2:12New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

1 Timothy 2:12New King James Version (NKJV)

12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.


1 Timothy 2:12English Standard Version (ESV)

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.


1 Timothy 2:12Revised Standard Version (RSV)

12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.

All bible translations say the same thing - a woman is not to teach or have authority over men. Are we supposed to believe that the hundreds of men and women involved in these translations got it wrong?

 

[Magenta]

Where in the bible do you find that Paul is quoting ANYTHING previously submitted to him? Where is that in the bible?

LOL. That is a rather typical rejoinder. Like: Show me where Scripture uses the word Trinity. Oops. It doesn't. Therefore Trinity does not exist and is a false teaching. <~(That is not my belief, just an example.) You could probably do that with quite a few things the Bible teaches.

Are we to be put under the law, then? That is plainly what Paul says: it is a commandment for women not to speak and therefore puts us back under the law. You would have him contradicting himself, and Jesus as well. You have not dealt with that. I don't expect you to, because I know you can't really. Also, it is speaking about being in church, and addressing married couples.

Nowhere have I said that women are to have authority over men. I do agree that Scripture plainly shows cases where men were under the authority of a women. I have reminded people that Scriptures exhort both husbands and wives to submit to each other. It gets brushed aside. I have also pointed out that Paul's reasons are suspect.

Yes, I did say that. What does he say? Well, he says the reason women must be silent is because Eve sinned. Oh. Well, you know, Adam's sin was disobedience, and caused all of creation to fall, and every human henceforth to be born with a sin nature, and estranged from God, calling for the bloody sacrifice of the sinless Christ to atone. Those are undeniably sound Biblical teachings.

Gosh, Adam, don't you think that your disobedience was a greater sin than Eve's of being deceived? I don't know how any can look at the FACTS and say Paul is being logical to say the reason women must be silent is because Eve sinned, when Adam also sinned. What of that? Oh, well, Eve was created second. So is that then the reason? Because since they both sinned it cannot be for that reason alone. So it is because Eve was created from Adam.

The feminine elements were removed from the first man Adam to create the female, and that is why women are to be subject to men. If the man is their husband, that is. We needn't have any more men running around like they own the world, treating women like second class citizens, than there already are. It would be nice to see Islam crushed into oblivion, eh? I do prefer Christian men to be distinguishable from them.

I would also rather not fight with you. I think you are quite a decent guy and I consider you my brother in Christ. We have come to different understandings of Scripture. There are some here who seem to believe themselves the only ones allowed to disagree with others and hold an opinion at variance, refusing to even acknowledge errors when they make them, and never apologizing when they are wrong because after all in their minds they are never wrong, are they? Only they are allowed to be critical of others. They throw their weight and self importance around and show themselves to be children of Satan with their lies, hypocrisy, and constant misrepresentations. I have met people like that here who interestingly enough call themselves saved. What they are is nasty. I certainly do not see you like that in any way whatsoever, and I would hope that despite our differences you can maintain your brotherly affection for me as I do my sisterly affection for you, despite our differences.

Since I am a born again believer I testify to others. I speak, I testify, I encourage others to seek; my greatest desire is to encourage others, and perhaps especially the lost, which I do on a regular basis through community meetings, and I have done in church, for instance, when I was baptised, I gave my testimony (a one time event). No man on this website is any man I must be in submission to. None of you are my husband. You need not submit to me either! Hey, how about that?

Jesus is my Lord and Savior. He appointed many women over centuries past to have authority over men, which has also been ignored by the naysayers. He also gave to every single one of us to speak His Truths. Every single one of us. Your being a man gives you no more rights than I have to be a voice for the Lord.

 

[StanJ]

Why don't you give a verse rebuttal AGAINST what Paul said, explain verse by verse how Paul is WRONG.

Paul isn't wrong, it's you and your understanding that is wrong.

 

[Angela53510]

I read your exegeitcs of the Greek and I made comments on it in post 509.

So much more!
Page 5 #92
#94
#97

Page 7 #123
Page 23 #450

I read you pick apart a tiny thing in post #509, and I will agree with you on that, just so we can move on. Read all of it, ok?

 

[StanJ]

Where in the bible do you find that Paul is quoting ANYTHING previously submitted to him? Where is that in the bible?

1 Cor 7:1 is one example of many.

 

[StanJ]

All bible translations say the same thing - a woman is not to teach or have authority over men. Are we supposed to believe that the hundreds of men and women involved in these translations got it wrong?

It's not the translation that you're not understanding, it's the context. This is directed towards men and women in a husband-wife relationship otherwise Paul would not have commended Priscilla, Phoebe, and Junia.They all taught men.

 

[StanJ]

1Cor 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak, but to be under obedience, for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Tim 2:11 let the woman learn in silence with all subjection, but I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurp authority over the man but to be in subjection. John 8:47 he that is of God hears God's words, you therefore hear not, because you are not of God.

Polly want a cracker?

 

[StanJ]

H

Do you guys not realize that the WOMAN is the church and the man is CHRIST? Should any of us usurp the power of Christ? God asks us to do ONE THING - believe GOD... that's it! If you're trying to change the BIBLE because you don't like what it says, you are not doing the one thing he asks us to do.

Do you not realize that men and women are the church and that the head of the Church is Christ. I don't think it serves or helps you to improperly paraphrase the Bible.

 

[trofimus]

1 Timothy 2:12King James Version (KJV)

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


1 Timothy 2:12New International Version (NIV)

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.


1 Timothy 2:12New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

1 Timothy 2:12New King James Version (NKJV)

12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.


1 Timothy 2:12English Standard Version (ESV)

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.


1 Timothy 2:12Revised Standard Version (RSV)

12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.

All bible translations say the same thing - a woman is not to teach or have authority over men. Are we supposed to believe that the hundreds of men and women involved in these translations got it wrong?

Wow, what do I see? You used multiple translations and even said that all are saying the same thing? Cool!

 

[trofimus]

Priscilla, Phoebe, and Junia.They all taught men.

Where is it written that they all taught men?

 

[StanJ]

Where is it written that they all taught men?

You know it's better that you learn how to study the Bible then get everybody to give you the answers.

 

[trofimus]

You know it's better that you learn how to study the Bible then get everybody to give you the answers.

OK, so nowhere, I suppose.

 

[brighthouse98]

DevonS as my dear sister Demi said, this is a tough one! The truth is the office of a pastor is not suppose to be a woman,your scripture in 1 Tim 3:11-15 is correct! verse 14 is the reason why. NOW!! Here is also something to take heart in good brother! There was a woman disciple as well!( Acts 9:36-43)

So important was the lady that Peter himself came to minister to her! So I myself would pray unto the Lord,find out what he wants you to do, then go in faith and worry about it no longer!

Does not matter what others think or say,we are led by Holy Spirit not people!( rom 8:14-15) But I have to be honest about the truth of the scriptures as well! The problem for me is verse 14! But as we all know men have been deceived as well! So it is a tough one! I go to a certain market for fruit brother,if one day the fruit they produce is bad, I will go somewhere else.Something to just consider bro. blessing to you!

 

[StanJ]

OK, so nowhere, I suppose.

Well if that's how you study the Bible then it's no wonder you have such a problem understanding it.

 

[trofimus]

DevonS as my dear sister Demi said, this is a tough one! The truth is the office of a pastor is not suppose to be a woman,your scripture in 1 Tim 3:11-15 is correct! verse 14 is the reason why. NOW!! Here is also something to take heart in good brother! There was a woman disciple as well!( Acts 9:36-43)

So important was the lady that Peter himself came to minister to her! So I myself would pray unto the Lord,find out what he wants you to do, then go in faith and worry about it no longer!

Does not matter what others think or say,we are led by Holy Spirit not people!( rom 8:14-15) But I have to be honest about the truth of the scriptures as well! The problem for me is verse 14! But as we all know men have been deceived as well! So it is a tough one! I go to a certain market for fruit brother,if one day the fruit they produce is bad, I will go somewhere else.Something to just consider bro. blessing to you!

I think it all becomes quite clear & simple when we just follow what the Bible tells us to do (Paul) than to follow everything what happened in church (Acts or greetings in letters to women).

Acts is a history book, not a law book. We also do not follow 1 Kings, for example.

 

[birdie]

So Im basically looking for some closure on this subject.

When I was 5 years old the first church I ever started attending was lead by A female Pastor. I was a regular for about 10 years. The pastor and My grandmother were best friends and she Preached at her funeral when he passed tragically.
I was saved at this church and witnessed many life changing things.

To me she was called. The absolutely incredible ways I would see God move through our church services and the amazing ways she would minister to us and help us really never made me doubt here calling. She was and still is my biggest inspiration as far as everything I hope to be one day.

So after reading that you can now imagine how hard it is to read passages like 1 Timothy 3- "The Husband of One Wife"
and 1 Tim 2:12 "I do not permit a women to teach nor have authority over a man"
And I also read about the Women Prophets of the Old testament like Miriam and others. And also places that speak of women prophesying.


I've had people tell me that the one I look up to the most is a false teacher because she is a women leading a church. That hurts my soul to hear things like that but I never want to argue the Scripture.

What is your take on the subject? Would you doubt someone's calling despite all of the wonderful fruit they produce?
Is our understanding of these passages wrong? Let me know what you think please.

I am just responding to the very first OP here, and I have not read much of the thread, so you don't have to read this if you think its out of place.

This scripture: "1 Timothy 2:12King James Version (KJV)

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

is a scripture that is talking about (in parable fashion) the relationship between Christ (man) and those who are supposed to be his bride (woman), which is the believers, both men and women. The believers are not supposed to usurp authority over Christ. Christ is the authority. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servantisnot greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

A saved woman can go share the gospel and it will have God's approval so long as it is the same gospel that Christ has given us. You cannot usurp the gospel and come up with a new different gospel not from God. That would be usurping God's authority. The Bible encourages persons to be silent and know that he is God if they are trying to come up with their own gospel. The Bible is not saying that a woman cannot share the real gospel from God. By all means, go woman go. Share the real gospel from God when you have it.

I notice that you mention that your "pastor" was or is a woman. Society, in my opinion, often colors how we think the word "pastor" should be defined. It is common to see the word used as someone who heads up a local group or organization of people who call themselves Christians or who call themselves a church. I am not so sure people are interpreting the word 'pastor' from the Bible as it is intended. In a sense, a pastor is anyone who 'shepherds' people in the direction of Christ. A person can share a verse from the Bible over the internet or at home or on the street, for example, with no man-made "church" affiliation whatsoever, and be a shepherd in my opinion. That is being a pastor. It is essentially the scripture, the word of God, that shepherds sheep in a good direction, to God.

 

[hornetguy]

The real issue is not about who has a problem with women being pastors it is whether God has a problem with it or not and based on any lack of clarity in scripture to the contrary God does not have a problem with women being pastors, teachers, or leaders. If that was problematic every Church would have to get rid of about 90% of their Sunday school teachers.

Either you missed the point of my post, or I missed the explanation of how a woman would "lead" a church. I assumed he was talking about a woman being the sole "leader" of a church, like many of the non-denoms or Pentecostals do... with one person being the "leader" or "boss" of a church.

THAT is what I have a problem with. Not with having a woman take on the role of a teacher.

There is no scriptural precedent for having a "pastor-led" church.

 

[wolfwint]

You know it's better that you learn how to study the Bible then get everybody to give you the answers.

But this is no answer to the question!

 

[wolfwint]

well said I see you point and after u added the rest, I agree. I think when it comes to ministry all in all, God doesnt make a differnce as that mainly depends on the character and gifts he gave that person (for some reason ppl think they can appoint and anoint themselves, i disagree. God calles people into offices and not the people)
Now of course woman and men do have generally in the more physical manner have a different role in relationships etc. as u stated the MAN is the head of the household. then the woman is the head of the children. Woman have roles and men SO all in all we all arent as multitasking as we would like to be lol
I dont agree with all that eve deceived kauderwelch that keeps getting brought up.. Adam could have said no and he didnt. He didnt take his responsibility so in the end, both failed. But like said its a big topic and I think we can agree to disagree in a few points.. its not like its the first.

Hi Demi, you wrote:

"I dont agree with all that eve deceived kauderwelch that keeps getting brought up.. Adam could have said no and he didnt. He didnt take his responsibility so in the end, both failed. But like said its a big topic and I think we can agree to disagree in a few points.. its not like its the first. "

But then my question is. What has authority the scripture ore the one who read the scripture and lay it out? Which rigth do we have to add ore take away scripture.

This says that the reader has the authority and not the scripture. This opens the way for all kind of false doctrine. And we can see this in the churches worldwide. About rhe woman pastoring it is interesting that we find this in th e beginning only in sects and in the beginning of the pentecostal movements. The first church in the newer time was the salvation army who put woman in authority. I am not a woman enemy and also pauls was not, as many people says. But the role of a woman is not to rule over man. You can ignore the scripture, but the scripture is still there! And will remain!

 

[samuel23]

There is so much diversion from the simple truth, sigh! This is not about who is better, men or women(we had this argument in the 6th grade). All men have been under the authority of a woman if you had a mother, as a grown man I would never cross my grandmother. Jesus allowed Himself to be ministered to by women and so did Paul, the first person to see the resurrected Christ was a woman. Woman are given the same Spirit, and they can pray, preach, prophecy, witness, however GOD and not man, has said that in an assembly the men are to led...when you fight against this teaching you are fighting against God and not man. This unscriptural teaching that women can be over men in the church was promoted by the Pentecostal movement that started around 1906. Because God did not zap them with a lightening bolt those women who took unscriptural positions of authority over men in the church, somehow thought God had changed His mind about what God had caused to be written. Not so, what the Lord has written He has written.