Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[eternally-gratefull]

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yethe abideth faithful: he cannotdeny himself.

Amen, Our salvation is not based on us and our character, it is based on him and his character. Thus if he fails to do what he promised, He has to deny himself .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Could the book of life just be a book where all births are recorded? I tend to think this because His death was for the whole world, but if not received at our death, we would be blotted out. ?

this is prety much how I see it,, The cross enabled ALL to be written in,, Thats why we have until death to repent..

but after we pass from this life, it is too late.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You ask two questions:

(1) What is the point of a saint being "preserved" by God if a saint can become a non-saint all over again?

The point is that a saint needs the power of God to stay preserved. Nothing we can do can preserve us!

if there is nothign we can do. how can we LOSE that preservation?

(2) Does God only preserve those who preserve themselves?

God only preserves those who believe.

We cannot preserve ourselves, anymore than putting strawberries in the freezer makes them preserves! LOL!

so if we can UNPRESERVE ourself. that means we are in actuality, preserving ourselves by a deed, correct?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Hey! I like what you have to say here! I am in complete agreement that there is absolutely no need to worry about losing your salvation. The answer to worry/fear/dread/doubt is to hang onto Christ and believe in Him!

Amen and amen!

That puts the onus on yourself, and should make you very worried indeed. If you really want freedom from worry and dread and doubt, believe the truth that it is God who holds onto you and who will never let you go.

"...for He has said, “I will never [under any circumstances] desert you [nor give you up nor leave you without support, nor will I in any degree leave you helpless], nor will I forsake or let you down or relax My hold on you [assuredly not]!” Hebrews 13:5

 

[valiant]

Hey! I like what you have to say here! I am in complete agreement that there is absolutely no need to worry about losing your salvation. The answer to worry/fear/dread/doubt is to hang onto Christ and believe in Him!

Amen and amen!

Thank God I do not have to hang on to Christ, He is holding on to me. That is why the devil cannot touch me,

I wonder how long you will 'hang on' when the devil really gets going?

 

[Chester]

Grace 777 wrote:

I firmly believe in eternal security of the believer that is in Christ. I also can see the many warnings in the life for those that live according to the flesh too.

Take up shooting heroin in your arms and you will see very quickly how death will come to us. Same for eating so much until we are so obese we have a heart attack.

Notice that Paul says "after" you were believing when we heard the message of Christ - you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

You were sealed is in the Greek Aorist Indicative tense - passive voice - which means it was a one time act in the past - completed and this act was done to you - we didn't do it to ourselves.


How does one "unseal" themselves from the Holy Spirit? - by an act of their own will? Can we as an act of our own will un-born ourselves as a human?

Can someone by an "act of their will" un-born themselves from being a human being?

Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will - I am un-born myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind )

Can some one by "an act of their will" stop being a son/daughter to someone? Of course not - they will always be the child of their parents whether they like it or not.

We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lies and abides forever. We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child because of Jesus Christ.

( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )

This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.



Response: Ephesians 1:13 as you say says that after we believed, that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. It was done to us: we did not do it ourselves. I think we completely agree on that! Rich, powerful blessings of God to those who believe!! Yes and amen!

As to your further explanation that "sealed" must mean that we can not "unseal" ourselves . . . The text itself says nothing about "unsealing" - I leave that to God.

As I said in another place, if one approaches this text believing in OSAS, then I can easily see how it can be read into the text.

I approach the text believing simply that the one believing is saved and the one not believing is not saved (as is very clear in other Scriptures - at least I think so - my presupposition perhaps! I don't see this text saying that an unbeliever will be saved. Nor do I see it saying clearly that once a person believes that they will always believe.

 

[Chester]

I agree. it does not actually say either word for word (Although to me ETERNAL LIFE is about as close as you can get)

I will add though, that whoever does not believe is condemned already..

A person who has faith in a god who will never let the down, does not just all of a sudden stop having faith, They may lack faith. but to come to the point where they deny Christ? That will never happen.

And that IS in scripture in 1 john, concerning an antichrist, who denys christ. (which is what a non believer is)

Ah! Ah! We are so so close (and yet so far apart?) in our beliefs!

If you would let me just tweak the above words just a little bit . . .

Just change "That will never happen to "That should never happen"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah! Ah! We are so so close (and yet so far apart?) in our beliefs!

If you would let me just tweak the above words just a little bit . . .

Just change "That will never happen to "That should never happen"

We are close, And we could actually say, Both of us believe that someone who rejects or denys christ will not get to heaven. (which is why I disagree with you, But will not say you are not my brother.. )

As far as "NEVER" vs "Should" The bible does not say SHOULD it says they were NEVER OF US,, or they would have remained WITH IS..

so I have to go with John on that one.

 

[Chester]

The verse uses a simple present. It is not talking of 'going on coming' but each individual as he comes, and WHY he comes. Those who were given to Him were those who come to Him. The promise is that they would not be left open to reject Him. They come to Him because they are irresistibly drawn. The promise applies to all Who come to Him



you mean you are trying to dodge the obvious. They will not be allowed to be lost because their shepherd is their keeper. it is as plain as daylight. (Oh sorry you are in the dark).



But the latter have not come to Him. So they are not included,



well you've been given it!!!!!



that is true, because only the one who believes will be saved.



The blessing and security of the one believing in Christ, AMEN, He alone is eternally saved.

But if you want to say that Jesus Christ is not telling the truth that is up to you. To me 'I should lose NOTHING' is perfectly clear,

I could respond but I think it may be best to just stop here for now. I gave an answer to the verse(s) you posted and we differ on the interpretation - and I am OK with that. I respect your position, though I do not agree.

I am fine if you say things like "to me 'I should lose NOTHING' is perfectly clear". Obviously to me it is not "clear" in that I do not see the same things as you do in the text. Not a problem to me - I want to learn from other believers.

I am a bit confused on why you need to make statements like "but if you want to say that Jesus Christ is not telling the truth that is up to you". I do not think that I said anywhere that Jesus Christ does not tell the truth - I believe that all the words of Christ are 100% truth!

Yes, we disagree on the meaning of the words of Christ - and I guess if you feel so strongly about your interpretation to the extent that my interpretation makes me a heretic and an unbeliever - OK - you have a right to your opinion . . .

You also say at one place that I am "in the dark" - Is this how you feel - that those who do not believe in OSAS are not believers?

I for the record will say that though I disagree with those who believe in OSAS, I count many of them as my brothers in Christ.

 

[Chester]

That puts the onus on yourself, and should make you very worried indeed. If you really want freedom from worry and dread and doubt, believe the truth that it is God who holds onto you and who will never let you go.

"...for He has said, “I will never [under any circumstances] desert you [nor give you up nor leave you without support, nor will I in any degree leave you helpless], nor will I forsake or let you down or relax My hold on you [assuredly not]!” Hebrews 13:5

It's amazing to me that though I am completely free from the fear and dread of losing my salvation, that I am told that I should be very worried indeed . . .

I am very glad that as I believe in God, that His grace and power is completely sufficient to keep me secure in Him.

No worry or fear in that!

 

[Chester]

Thank God I do not have to hang on to Christ, He is holding on to me. That is why the devil cannot touch me,

I wonder how long you will 'hang on' when the devil really gets going?

I LOVE hanging on to Christ!! (Just like I love hanging on to my wife - though that is no business of yours!)

LOL!

And the more the devil "gets going" the more I love hanging on to Christ!

 

[FreeNChrist]

It's amazing to me that though I am completely free from the fear and dread of losing my salvation, that I am told that I should be very worried indeed . . .

I am very glad that as I believe in God, that His grace and power is completely sufficient to keep me secure in Him.

No worry or fear in that!

If your eternal security is dependent upon you, you should be very worried indeed.

 

[Chester]

We are close, And we could actually say, Both of us believe that someone who rejects or denys christ will not get to heaven. (which is why I disagree with you, But will not say you are not my brother.. )

As far as "NEVER" vs "Should" The bible does not say SHOULD it says they were NEVER OF US,, or they would have remained WITH IS..

so I have to go with John on that one.

That verse in I John 2:19 - I assume you mean that verse:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us"

I think I agree with you on this: the verse seems to mean that the group of people he is referring to were in the church, but were not actually born again Christians - because they left the church - and all this proved that they were not really born again.

No argument with that interpretation - It seems to me, though, that you are taking this verse and saying that because this was true of the group of people John writes about here - (that they were never born again) that this means that anyone anywhere in any age that seems to leave the faith (or the church, or true Christianity) was not truly born again to start with.

I do not think the text (I John 2:19) says this.

All it says is that the group of people John is writing about were not ever truly born again.

Now I do agree that very often people who seem to have "backslid" or "left the faith" probably never were born again to start with. But I don't see any clear Scriptural text that clearly says that this is always the case.

Thanks for the congenial discussion, EG - I am not sure what I am writing above is the verse you were referring to - so maybe I am trying to answer the wrong question - clarify as needed . . .

 

[Chester]

If your eternal security is dependent upon you, you should be very worried indeed.

I don't think I have said that my security is dependent on me . . . but maybe you think it should be by what I believe . . .

 

[Depleted]

I LOVE hanging on to Christ!! (Just like I love hanging on to my wife - though that is no business of yours!)

LOL!

And the more the devil "gets going" the more I love hanging on to Christ!

Not having that moment yet when you are so depleted you just don't have the energy to hang on anymore happening to you yet isn't the same thing as assuming you always will do the holding.

It's a shame you have such little trust in God that you think you hold onto him. Worse yet, you also think you're stronger than "the devil."

I lost my strength more than once. Twice was directly related to my husband coming so close to death, I couldn't hang onto him either. And, of course, he couldn't hang onto me. The last time he couldn't even lift his arm to hold. Of course, he was unaware of anything around him during those months in ICU, so at least he wasn't thinking he was the one clinging to God.

 

[Chester]

Not having that moment yet when you are so depleted you just don't have the energy to hang on anymore happening to you yet isn't the same thing as assuming you always will do the holding.

It's a shame you have such little trust in God that you think you hold onto him. Worse yet, you also think you're stronger than "the devil."

I lost my strength more than once. Twice was directly related to my husband coming so close to death, I couldn't hang onto him either. And, of course, he couldn't hang onto me. The last time he couldn't even lift his arm to hold. Of course, he was unaware of anything around him during those months in ICU, so at least he wasn't thinking he was the one clinging to God.

I think I am stronger than the Devil?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and oh, oh, oh - I indeed have been there when I don't have the energy to hang on - and then God gives energy - else I would not be here today! I am so glad it is not dependent on me!

 

[FreeNChrist]

I don't think I have said that my security is dependent on me . . . but maybe you think it should be by what I believe . . .

If it's you and your hanging onto God, then it's you that your security is dependent upon.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That verse in I John 2:19 - I assume you mean that verse:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us"

I think I agree with you on this: the verse seems to mean that the group of people he is referring to were in the church, but were not actually born again Christians - because they left the church - and all this proved that they were not really born again.

No argument with that interpretation - It seems to me, though, that you are taking this verse and saying that because this was true of the group of people John writes about here - (that they were never born again) that this means that anyone anywhere in any age that seems to leave the faith (or the church, or true Christianity) was not truly born again to start with.

I do not think the text (I John 2:19) says this.

All it says is that the group of people John is writing about were not ever truly born again.

Now I do agree that very often people who seem to have "backslid" or "left the faith" probably never were born again to start with. But I don't see any clear Scriptural text that clearly says that this is always the case.

Thanks for the congenial discussion, EG - I am not sure what I am writing above is the verse you were referring to - so maybe I am trying to answer the wrong question - clarify as needed . . .

John is talking about antichrists. People who were going to the church, and professed Christ, but now, have professed unbelief in Christ.

I think it speaks for all time because of what John said.

1. If they had been truly of us, they would never have left. This is like other aspects of scripture which says the same, Like a dog returns to his vomit, A person who is really not saved can only act for so long..

2. They (the ones who now do not believe) left to reveal their true self (they they were never saved to begin with (of us)

besides this, I would ask the same question I always ask.

How can someone who is BORN OF GOD, Is CHASTENED BY GOD, has WITNESS and EXPERIENCED his TRUE LOVE because they had FAITH IN GOD.

ever turn from that and stop believing. What reason would God give them to do this? people do not do things without a reason. People deny God because of a reaon,, What reason did God give then that he was not trustworthy?

 

[Chester]

John is talking about antichrists. People who were going to the church, and professed Christ, but now, have professed unbelief in Christ.

I think it speaks for all time because of what John said.

1. If they had been truly of us, they would never have left. This is like other aspects of scripture which says the same, Like a dog returns to his vomit, A person who is really not saved can only act for so long..

2. They (the ones who now do not believe) left to reveal their true self (they they were never saved to begin with (of us)

besides this, I would ask the same question I always ask.

How can someone who is BORN OF GOD, Is CHASTENED BY GOD, has WITNESS and EXPERIENCED his TRUE LOVE because they had FAITH IN GOD.

ever turn from that and stop believing. What reason would God give them to do this? people do not do things without a reason. People deny God because of a reaon,, What reason did God give then that he was not trustworthy?

And, I respectfully disagree (though I agree with much of what you say)

Don't think I will answer here - my answer was in a previous post!

I will let you have the last word - for now! I plan to convince John of the truth of my position and then we'll confront you (in heaven!) Don't know that it will do any good, though - you are quite stubborn! (in a good way!

 

[Chester]

If it's you and your hanging onto God, then it's you that your security is dependent upon.

Ach! My hanging onto Christ analogy is being interpreted different than I mean it! LOL! - but that is OK!