The easy way to spot a false grace message
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Eg, some believe differently than you. They think it is possible to turn back after putting their hand to the plow. There are godly men who work out their salvation with fear and trembling who actually take warnings like the one I gave above to heart. Some of them really listen to take care that an evil and unbelieving heart not be found in them, as they do with all the warnings. God puts them on a constricting path to purge them of pride, arrogance, presumptions, self love. If God takes them by this constricting way to grow them in virtue, it does not mean they aren't your brother. In the past, I have had very good and edifying conversations with you and yet I believe it is possible to put ones hand to the plow and then turn back. Can you never have any conversation with a man who believes that unbelief, if not worked out, can harm his soul?
If we put aside all taunting and snippy remarks and lack of forgiveness, there is something to what the op is saying. The verse does actually say, if we abide in Him we do not sin. So why IS it that the immediate response to say: no. If we abide in Him we DO still sin? Could it be that the focus should be on abiding, since we know when we abide we do not sin? If the entire race is a race of abiding (trusting) all He says, why not put our focus on abiding and helping each other to it? Why would the focus be on constantly getting men who really do believe it is possible to put your hand to the plow but then turn back because the way is narrow and hard to our flesh, to instead believe that it is not possible to put their hand to the plow and turn back? After all, I am sure you have run across some men who bear fruit that they walk in the Spirit but who also believe it is possible to turn back and fall away. You probably don't know sometimes when you are talking to them because their focus is abiding and they've moved beyond fighting over doctrine and so they leave instead of jumping in on the fist fight.
If we put aside all taunting and snippy remarks and lack of forgiveness, there is something to what the op is saying. The verse does actually say, if we abide in Him we do not sin. So why IS it that the immediate response to say: no. If we abide in Him we DO still sin? Could it be that the focus should be on abiding, since we know when we abide we do not sin? If the entire race is a race of abiding (trusting) all He says, why not put our focus on abiding and helping each other to it? Why would the focus be on constantly getting men who really do believe it is possible to put your hand to the plow but then turn back because the way is narrow and hard to our flesh, to instead believe that it is not possible to put their hand to the plow and turn back? After all, I am sure you have run across some men who bear fruit that they walk in the Spirit but who also believe it is possible to turn back and fall away. You probably don't know sometimes when you are talking to them because their focus is abiding and they've moved beyond fighting over doctrine and so they leave instead of jumping in on the fist fight.
That which is born [SUP]G1080[/SUP] of [SUP]G1537[/SUP] the flesh [SUP]G4561[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] flesh; [SUP]G4561[/SUP] and [SUP]G2532[/SUP] that which is born [SUP]G1080[/SUP] of [SUP]G1537[/SUP] the Spirit [SUP]G4151[/SUP] is [SUP]G2076[/SUP] spirit. [SUP]G4151[/SUP]
Bible usage of flesh G4561--->>>>
The KJV translates Strong's G4561 in the following manner: flesh (147x), carnal (2x), carnally minded (with G5427) (1x), fleshly (1x).
Bible usage of flesh G4561--->>>>
- the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
- without any suggestion of depravity
- the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
- the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
- the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
- a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast
- the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.
Also "carnally minded"
The KJV translates Strong's G4561 in the following manner: flesh (147x), carnal (2x), carnally minded (with G5427) (1x), fleshly (1x).
F
You want to believe the flesh is a sin nature so be it. It doesn't change what is important. That whatever you want to think it is, it remains, and it wars against the Spirit, and Christians are exhorted in Galatians 5:16 to, "...walk by the Spirit," so that we, "will not carry out the desires of the flesh.”
* By the way "flesh" is use in different ways depending upon the context.
* By the way "flesh" is use in different ways depending upon the context.
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Personally I too do not like the term "sin nature" as it can mis-lead us. It is not a term used in scripture. It is a man-made term based on our church teachings.
The bible calls it the flesh so to me it's easier and better to use as Paul says "sound words" to convey truths.
We only have one true nature and it is the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4 of which we have been made partakers of because of being in Christ.
We still have the flesh left over after Adam's nature died on the cross with Jesus and we were raised to be a new creation.
The real us is our new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness which is why this new man in Christ cannot sin because it is one spirit with the Lord ( 1 Cor. 6:17 ). 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18
Not understanding this truth can lead to a "sinless perfection in the flesh" doctrine in which believers that do sin by giving in to the works of the flesh are then changed to a child of the devil type of nonsense.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
( This verse says that he cannot sin - it's present tense which is always present - whether one sins once or a million times - it will always be present tense that the act was done )
Jesus Himself keeps us because we are born of God. We are the sons of God in the Son of God. For we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. Col.3:3.
Joined as one spirit with Him for eternity. This is very exciting and it shows the marvelous completed work of our Lord for us.
1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. ( again - same deal = present tense )
The bible calls it the flesh so to me it's easier and better to use as Paul says "sound words" to convey truths.
We only have one true nature and it is the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4 of which we have been made partakers of because of being in Christ.
We still have the flesh left over after Adam's nature died on the cross with Jesus and we were raised to be a new creation.
The real us is our new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness which is why this new man in Christ cannot sin because it is one spirit with the Lord ( 1 Cor. 6:17 ). 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18
Not understanding this truth can lead to a "sinless perfection in the flesh" doctrine in which believers that do sin by giving in to the works of the flesh are then changed to a child of the devil type of nonsense.
1 John 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
( This verse says that he cannot sin - it's present tense which is always present - whether one sins once or a million times - it will always be present tense that the act was done )
Jesus Himself keeps us because we are born of God. We are the sons of God in the Son of God. For we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. Col.3:3.
Joined as one spirit with Him for eternity. This is very exciting and it shows the marvelous completed work of our Lord for us.
1 John 5:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. ( again - same deal = present tense )
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I had to search to find this again. The sin He deals with me about is inside, in my mind, will and emotions. I can keep the outside looking pretty respectable to you, but He sees what's going on inside that is hindering me from being able to move forward and have victories. It's the things that are hidden from others that keep me from being able to receive more light. 
Two questions. Number one being, why do you quote John and the verse saying one born again cannot sin, to make a point of you not sinning but still believe its possible for a believer to sin (usually at the exclusion of this point)? In other words, why do you try and paint yourself sinless when pressed by avoiding answering forthright, and quote verses on born-again believer unable to sin, but then not share your other held belief that believers still can sin?
My second question is unrelated to the first, but I still wonder. Why is it that in "walking in the light" the blood of Christ cleanses one from all sin, if walking in the light means to not be sinning? If walking in the light means one is not sinning, then how does one get cleansed of sin while in the light? There wouldn't be sin to clean if being in the light was dependent upon not sinning. You see?
My second question is unrelated to the first, but I still wonder. Why is it that in "walking in the light" the blood of Christ cleanses one from all sin, if walking in the light means to not be sinning? If walking in the light means one is not sinning, then how does one get cleansed of sin while in the light? There wouldn't be sin to clean if being in the light was dependent upon not sinning. You see?
I find it hilarious, the insinuations of this alleged 'pack mentality' and 'calling the dogs' accusation. LOL!
No, it's none of that, it's like a car wreck, everyone slows down to take a look at the horrifying remains.
In this venue (concerning the OP and the proponents thereof) it's a theological train wreck, and 'the pack' has come out to get the train back on the right track.
No, it's none of that, it's like a car wreck, everyone slows down to take a look at the horrifying remains.
In this venue (concerning the OP and the proponents thereof) it's a theological train wreck, and 'the pack' has come out to get the train back on the right track.
I was meaning to say that I think you see a lion on the path sometimes that isn't there. A little while back, we had some who seemed to come in a flood who were all about following every little statute in the law of Moses. Now THAT'S definitely a lion on the path.
Salvation isn't based on producing fruit. He saved me before He pruned me and purged and began to make me more like our Lord. But there is always the tension you can never get away from and it's here as always. Anyone who DOESN'T produce good fruit will be chopped down. I have to take all of it into account. I can't just insist there is no tension because we are meant to work through the tension with Him, not to ignore it altogether.
Salvation isn't based on producing fruit. He saved me before He pruned me and purged and began to make me more like our Lord. But there is always the tension you can never get away from and it's here as always. Anyone who DOESN'T produce good fruit will be chopped down. I have to take all of it into account. I can't just insist there is no tension because we are meant to work through the tension with Him, not to ignore it altogether.
I can sort of understand phrasing it this way...it sort of agrees with the way Grace777 looks at it also - that we are sort of....severed from our sin nature, but it rises up to tempt us to walk in it again. To which God says, it desires to devour you but you must be it's master. (my paraphrase of His words to Cain, too lazy to look it up.)
Yes...Paul says in Col. 2:11 that we have been cut away from the body of flesh ( where sin dwells - the noun - the entity or influence called "sin" that came into the world from Adam's sinning - Romans 7:17,18,23 ) by the circumcision of Christ. In another place Paul calls it the circumcision of the flesh. Two sides of the same coin.
When we receive Christ and believe in our heart after hearing the message of Christ - the Holy Spirit seals us in Christ - that is the new man also called the new creation - where our spirit is raised from the dead with Christ. Our old man which was Adam's nature handed down to us was crucified with Christ on the cross. (Gal. 2:20 - Rom. 6:6 )
The Holy Spirit cuts away from our new nature - the new creation in Christ from our flesh. The revelation of this has helped me immensely in the battle of the mind when "sin arises" within our own thought life to try to get us to fulfill "it's" desires. I can recommend some free audio and videos if you are interested in this subject.
When we receive Christ and believe in our heart after hearing the message of Christ - the Holy Spirit seals us in Christ - that is the new man also called the new creation - where our spirit is raised from the dead with Christ. Our old man which was Adam's nature handed down to us was crucified with Christ on the cross. (Gal. 2:20 - Rom. 6:6 )
The Holy Spirit cuts away from our new nature - the new creation in Christ from our flesh. The revelation of this has helped me immensely in the battle of the mind when "sin arises" within our own thought life to try to get us to fulfill "it's" desires. I can recommend some free audio and videos if you are interested in this subject.
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