Tongues Again???

[presidente]

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

If no one can understand keep silent.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

You are actually trying to create a contradiction between scriptures here by misinterpreting words. Paul allows speaking in tongues. It doesn't fit into the 'vain repetition' category. It edifies the one who speaks it, and if one gives thanks to God in tongues, he gives thanks well, so it is not vain.

You may think your babbling is from God but the scripture is clear that God prefers us to pray quietly to Him because He knows what we are thinking.

None of those scriptures say to pray quietly.

 

[DustyRhodes]

tongues is a form of prayer...there are many others

 

[88]

Trying to explain tongues to non charismatic/ pentecostal is hard----- I 've been in all kinds of churches--- even Billy Graham's church in Western Springs Illinois----my hometown----he was pastor there in 1943----I've worked in Pentecostal Churches----Foursquare Gospel & Assemblies of God----I've been involved with many ministries which promote tongues Biblically'-- R.W Schambach----- Morris Cerullo----- ect.-----unless your in that environment---' where tongues and gifts are operated you don' t know the " rest of the story"----those who are not in this atmosphere are like non Christians who don't get salvation.... seriously----you can debate it--- analyze it--- think about it ---- dissect it-----but you really don't know what it's about ( no offense)----Grace and Peace

 

[VCO]

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Why do you not trust Him VCO? Do you honestly think the devil has that much power? You cannot worship the Lord Jesus Christ and be led astray in this way. It's a relationship with Him, and with the Godhead.
. . .

I am not the one with a lack of TRUST problem, you are.

John 20:25 (ASV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

John 20:29-30 (ASV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book:

1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 14:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] It follows that speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages is intended as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers. But prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.


NOT TO EDIFY SELF, that verse was Paul condemning why ecstatic utterances were wrong.


1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good.


And you do not TRUST that the LORD GOD inspired Paul to write those verses correctly.

Where is your TRUST when you read this verse?

Matthew 16:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed.

2 Timothy 3:1-8 (GWT)
1 You must understand this: In the last days there will be violent periods of time.
2 People will be selfish and love money. They will brag, be arrogant, and use abusive language. They will curse their parents, show no gratitude, have no respect for what is holy,
3 and lack normal affection for their families. They will refuse to make peace with anyone. They will be slanderous, lack self-control, be brutal, and have no love for what is good.
4 They will be traitors. They will be reckless and conceited. They will love pleasure rather than God.
5 They will appear to have a godly life, but they will not let its power change them. Stay away from such people.
6 Some of these men go into homes and mislead weak-minded women who are burdened with sins and led by all kinds of desires.
7 These women are always studying but are never able to recognize the truth.
8 As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men oppose the truth. Their minds are corrupt, and the faith they teach is counterfeit.

 

[wolfwint]

Trying to explain tongues to non charismatic/ pentecostal is hard----- I 've been in all kinds of churches--- even Billy Graham's church in Western Springs Illinois----my hometown----he was pastor there in 1943----I've worked in Pentecostal Churches----Foursquare Gospel & Assemblies of God----I've been involved with many ministries which promote tongues Biblically'-- R.W Schambach----- Morris Cerullo----- ect.-----unless your in that environment---' where tongues and gifts are operated you don' t know the " rest of the story"----those who are not in this atmosphere are like non Christians who don't get salvation.... seriously----you can debate it--- analyze it--- think about it ---- dissect it-----but you really don't know what it's about ( no offense)----Grace and Peace

Then again, how a christian is recieving this gift?As a gift like all others gifts which are mention? Ore as proof to got the second baptism with the Holy Spirit?

 

[jaybird88]

jaybird,

I don't see a 'prayer language' in scripture. I see the same sort of tongues that can be interpreted being used in prayer ('speak to himself and to God.) The benefit is that it builds up the one doing it. If the individual is giving thanks to God, He gives thanks well.

praying in itself improves oneself. how does the spirit language prayer work better than normal prayer? Abram prayed for a child in a normal language and was answered with descendants "like the stars". could his reward have been greater had he prayed in the prayer language? the Lord said his reward would be "very great", would his reward have been better than what the Almighty called "very great" with the prayer language?

 

[presidente]

praying in itself improves oneself. how does the spirit language prayer work better than normal prayer?

I am not arguing that it is better. I do see where Paul says he will pray with the Spirit and with the understanding. If you ask how it edifies, we could suggest ideas about that. But I don't see how the Bible explains how it edifies the individual, just that it teaches that it does. That is enough for me. I'd like to understand everything, but I don't, and honestly there are other issues I'd prioritize over that question in my quest for knowledge.

Abram prayed for a child in a normal language and was answered with descendants "like the stars". could his reward have been greater had he prayed in the prayer language? the Lord said his reward would be "very great", would his reward have been better than what the Almighty called "very great" with the prayer language?

I don't know the answer to your question, and honestly, it doesn't seem like the type of question I'd benefit a lot from meditating on for a long time. I do not think that we should do away with praying for specific things in 'the understanding' and only pray in tongues.

 

[presidente]

I am not the one with a lack of TRUST problem, you are.

John 20:25 (ASV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

This seems to be more like the cessationists problem. Someone who believe the Spirit manifestations are given as the scripture teaches they are may not have a problem with the idea that God may raise the dead or heal a quadrapelegic through an individual. A cessationist is a lot less likely to believe this, and may demand to see the evidence up close before believing, kind of like Thomas insisting on putting his fingers in Jesus' hands.

 

[VCO]

Right on----if there is the false----this means there is the real mccoy-----if we rejected everything that had falseness ---we wouldn't even have churches---pastors----teachers...ect.

Jeremiah 23:2-4 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the shepherds who care for my people: “You have scattered my flock and have driven them away, and you have not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for your evil deeds, declares the LORD.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, declares the LORD.

John 10:16 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

Romans 11:5-6 (RSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


Surprise, the word CHURCH is not in the original Greek manuscripts. The word [FONT=Gentium !important]ekklêsia [/FONT]actually meant ASSEMBLY in the Greek, the same thing HE called O.T. Saints. Somebody changed ASSEMBLY to CHURCH even prior to the 1611 KJV. We are the "other sheep" or N.T. Saints in John 10:16, and the people Jesus was talking to in that verse were the last of the O.T. Saints. Almost everyone forgets the birthday of the Church was not until the Day of Pentecost. Move over and make room for our O.T. Jewish brothers and sisters, who also are part of the Bride of Christ.

O.T. Saints believed God would send Messiah.
N.T. Saints believe God did send Messiah, Jesus Christ.

It is the same Faith, the Faith of Abraham.

 

[VCO]

tongues is a form of prayer...there are many others

Matthew 6:7-10 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Hmmmm, HE SAID we were to pray, in our own language, Glorifying the Father, praying for the advancement of the Kingdom, presenting our NEEDS (not wants), praying for our forgiveness of our sins, praying for spiritual strength to endure and withstand the temptations of the Devil, and the ability to forgive others. Hmmmmm, it still does not look or sound like JESUS intended us to pray in TONGUES. TONGUES were only intended to be a sign to unbelieving Jews, so that they would have NO EXCUSE to not believe the New Testament was equally the Word of God, as the Old Testament:

Mark 16:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

 

[jaybird88]

I am not arguing that it is better. I do see where Paul says he will pray with the Spirit and with the understanding.

it is different than all other examples of prayer in the bible. if one was gonna chose a different way, why? if its the same ole same ole there would be no point in doing it, there would have to be a benifit other than the normal way and this is what the prayer language folks fail to ever explain.

If you ask how it edifies

prayer, praise, worship, study, obedience, etc, all edify/improve oneself.

 

[jaybird88]

I'm not saying God couldn't gift someone to do such a thing, but I can say I don't find any examples of this in the Bible.

Acts 2:5-8

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? [SUP]8 [/SUP]And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe:
in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

 

[VCO]

Then again, how a christian is recieving this gift?As a gift like all others gifts which are mention? Ore as proof to got the second baptism with the Holy Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


1 John 2:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

That word keeps , is in the Greek Primary Perfect Tense, which is the fourth Primary Verb Tense that we DO NOT HAVE IN ENGLISH. It implies a continuous lifestyle of desiring and striving to KEEP His Word. It does not mean we are perfect at it, but it is the desire of our hearts and the lifestyle we strive to live. THAT is the proof we have been baptized (IMMERSED) by the Holy Spirit into the spiritual Body of Christ, NOT CHARISMATIC TONGUES.

 

[presidente]

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Who baptizes? The Spirit. Into what? One body.

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:

Who does the baptizing? Jesus. Baptized with Whom? The Holy Ghost.

 

[presidente]

Acts 2:5-8

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? [SUP]8 [/SUP]And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe:
in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

They heard them speak of the wonderful works of God. The Psalms do that. The passage does not say that they proclaimed and explained the Gospel to the crowd 'in tongues.' It wasn't until Peter stood up and preached to the crowd that many of them believed.

 

[presidente]

it is different than all other examples of prayer in the bible. if one was gonna chose a different way, why? if its the same ole same ole there would be no point in doing it, there would have to be a benifit other than the normal way and this is what the prayer language folks fail to ever explain.

I can point out what the Bible says. I suppose we can speculate on answers to your questions, but we need to realize that it is just speculation.

I don't have to understand exactly how speaking in tongues edifies the one who does it if the Bible teaches that it does. Do you believe that the saints will be resurrected? Do you have to understand the exact details of the process involved in resurrection to believe that it will happen?

prayer, praise, worship, study, obedience, etc, all edify/improve oneself.

Those are all good things. If I did not understand exactly how praise edified me, would that mean I should not praise God?

 

[jaybird88]

The passage does not say that they proclaimed and explained the Gospel to the crowd 'in tongues.

yes it does, again:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.

tongue means language, you could sub tongue for language and it would mean the same thing.they were speaking in new languages/tongues, this is why the people were amazed and astonished.

 

[stonesoffire]

VCO:
I am not the one with a lack of TRUST problem, you are.

stones:

I received the baptism at an event hosted by Billy Graham called Explo '72 in Dallas, Texas at the cotton bowl. It was a evangelistic conference that taught witnessing using the 4 spiritual laws booklets to 100,000 gathered there. At one of the meetings, and I think it was actually the last one, an invitation was given to receive Holy Spirit. I was already born again and in love with Jesus. Knew nothing of Pentecost or tongues or any gifts. Here was where I felt a "wind" step into me. Was what it felt like.
I went home not the same. My worship life exploded and one afternoon I just began to speak.

All who experience this wonderful Holy Spirit person of God receives as He gives. I was seeking God, not His gifts. And am sure that this is the reason why some receive and others don't.

You want to stick to your charge?

VCO
John 20:25 (ASV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Stones:

Its not given to men as a sign. He is our helper. Comforter. Power to witness. Teacher. And gifts are to testify truths and acts of Holy Spirit to those we are with in this world, with anointing powe. And initially when I would talk to others about Jesus, I would shake under the power, for God within can be overwhelming to our frame.

It's still a sign to unbelievers.

VCO:
John 20:29-30 (ASV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book:

stones:

Again, the actions of the gifts are still a sign. Now we are not just one, but many. Which is Gods purpose for giving. Now we are the Sons of God, and we do His works.

Im amazed at the younger generations that are coming up now for they are fearless and bold. My generation had a lot to overcome mainly because of the stigma attached to the Pentecostals such as you are trying to do here in this forum. Now the young just don't care. And I listen to their teachings.

You are actually uniting with Satan to oppress your brothers and sisters.

VCO:
1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 14:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] It follows that speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages is intended as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers. But prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.

Stones:

Oh, and you are taking all these scriptures and using them completely out of context. You should know better than this VCO. Tsk tsk.

VCO:
NOT TO EDIFY SELF, that verse was Paul condemning why ecstatic utterances were wrong.

stones:

tongues vco. Use your pagan expression elsewhere. And you are speaking against scripture because Paul said they are for us personally to edify. That means in the Greek, to build the house. The house of God meetings, and our own temple.

You know I'm sure that unless the Lord builds the house, they that Labor, labor in vain.

VCO:
1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good.

Stones:

all gifts from God are blessings and good. Out of context VCO. Don't rightly divide. That will lead you into all kinds of deceptive spirits.

By the way, Gods gifts are good whether you understand them or not. And you don't. Sorry to be so blunt but your posts

And you do not TRUST that the LORD GOD inspired Paul to write those verses correctly.
Warrant bluntness.

VCO:
Where is your TRUST when you read this verse?

Matthew 16:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed.

Stones:

Doesnt apply to Pentecost. He said He was sending Him, and to wait. Ya shoulda waited boy.


VCO:
2 Timothy 3:1-8 (GWT)
1 You must understand this: In the last days there will be violent periods of time.
2 People will be selfish and love money. They will brag, be arrogant, and use abusive language. They will curse their parents, show no gratitude, have no respect for what is holy,
3 and lack normal affection for their families. They will refuse to make peace with anyone. They will be slanderous, lack self-control, be brutal, and have no love for what is good.
4 They will be traitors. They will be reckless and conceited. They will love pleasure rather than God.
5 They will appear to have a godly life, but they will not let its power change them. Stay away from such people.
6 Some of these men go into homes and mislead weak-minded women who are burdened with sins and led by all kinds of desires.
7 These women are always studying but are never able to recognize the truth.
8 As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men oppose the truth. Their minds are corrupt, and the faith they teach is counterfeit.[/QUOTE]

Stones:

all straw. Your own thoughts with a little bit of accusations thrown in.

As I said, you can't argue an experience. And you are actually taking the wrong side to side with.

And as I said before...I can offer you all mercy because I did it too before He touched me. And He did it without my asking and without asking me for permission. And He is wonderful!

 

[wolfwint]

Stone, you wrote:

"I received the baptism at an event hosted by Billy Graham called Explo '72 in Dallas, Texas at the cotton bowl. It was a evangelistic conference that taught witnessing using the 4 spiritual laws booklets to 100,000 gathered there. At one of the meetings, and I think it was actually the last one, an invitation was given to receive Holy Spirit. I was already born again and in love with Jesus. Knew nothing of Pentecost or tongues or any gifts. Here was where I felt a "wind" step into me. Was what it felt like.
I went home not the same. My worship life exploded and one afternoon I just began to speak."

I believe that is your expierience, but how you can somebody receive the Holy Spirit 2 times. If somebody is born again he has already given the Holy Spirit! To recieve the Holy Spirit as an 2nd expierience is an pentocostal/ Charismatic doctrine which has no base in bible. In the whole church history you cant find this doctrine. It began with 1900 with Topeka and later Azusa street. (This means in the consequence that all christians before 1900 and which are reject this doctrine are false) And this is what doubt me that behind this doctrine 2nd expierience is the right spirit.

 

[wolfwint]

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


1 John 2:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

That word keeps , is in the Greek Primary Perfect Tense, which is the fourth Primary Verb Tense that we DO NOT HAVE IN ENGLISH. It implies a continuous lifestyle of desiring and striving to KEEP His Word. It does not mean we are perfect at it, but it is the desire of our hearts and the lifestyle we strive to live. THAT is the proof we have been baptized (IMMERSED) by the Holy Spirit into the spiritual Body of Christ, NOT CHARISMATIC TONGUES.

Dear VCO, i know and I agree with you. But I want have an answer from those who claim that speaking in tongues is an proof for the 2nd baptism with the Holy Spirit ore claim that all christians has given the gift to speak in tongues. Because I cant find a scripture base for this claims.