Tongues Again???

[presidente]

The following article debunks the liberal theory that VCO is promoting. The theory actually comes from the Higher Criticism school of thought, rather than from Biblical, historical Christianity.

This website actually compiles the quotes from Greek literature about the oracle of Delphi and shows that pagan priestesses of Apollo spoke in intelligible speech. Herodotus says they spoke in hexameter verse. Much later, Plutarch, who lived in the first century and was a priest at Delphi defended the idea that the oracles could speak in very direct and to the point prose rather than poetry.

The oracles words were probably hard to decipher because they were spoken in a high form of oratory with metaphor and such. My guess is they were probably vague like horoscopes, too.

 

[presidente]

Oops, here is the link
Delphi Prophetesses and Christian Tongues - Charles A. Sullivan

Btw, VCO blocked me after I debunked some of the ideas he was promoting. So someone may want to include this link in another post that doesn't quote me. He may benefit from adding it to his research.

 

[stonesoffire]

The following article debunks the liberal theory that VCO is promoting. The theory actually comes from the Higher Criticism school of thought, rather than from Biblical, historical Christianity.

This website actually compiles the quotes from Greek literature about the oracle of Delphi and shows that pagan priestesses of Apollo spoke in intelligible speech. Herodotus says they spoke in hexameter verse. Much later, Plutarch, who lived in the first century and was a priest at Delphi defended the idea that the oracles could speak in very direct and to the point prose rather than poetry.

The oracles words were probably hard to decipher because they were spoken in a high form of oratory with metaphor and such. My guess is they were probably vague like horoscopes, too.

Interesting article presidente..

 

[stonesoffire]

Oops, here is the link
Delphi Prophetesses and Christian Tongues - Charles A. Sullivan

Btw, VCO blocked me after I debunked some of the ideas he was promoting. So someone may want to include this link in another post that doesn't quote me. He may benefit from adding it to his research.

Great information.

 

[jaybird88]

I think it has to do with the manner of prayer, as vain empty , and not so much the repetition. We are to cry out in our anxieties repetitiously according to the right manner .Knowing we understand that He knows what we need even before we cry out.

Those who in vain cry out according to another manner other than our father are following after another Christ the anti-christ.

Like the Catholics vain repetitions as to what they call Holy Father, the Holy See, our Holiness .... the Pope as a daysman . .

They have turned His manner into many manners. To include a queen mother of heaven And are shown as those who refuse to call no man on earth father for one is in heaven

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mat 6:7

if you want to argue Catholics fall into this category, ok no prob. but Jesus is saying dont follow as the pagans do, He is speaking of a bad example that existed at the present time of the statement. who was going around praying like this at that time?

 

[wolfwint]

Even the first baptizing (water) is not evidence we have the Holy Spirit .No such thing as a sign gift. Signs are for those who believe not. Prophecy (the word of God )for those who are given the faith of Christ that works in the believer to both will and do his good pleasure as a imputed righteousness not of their own selves, so that we then can believe God.

Faith (Christ's) of God is the free gift not of our own selves as a source of faith according to His faith that works in us we are saved. His faith is not without works.

Garee, l left lutheren church after I turned to Christ, because the Pastor only nominell christian. But this was not my point when I wrote to 88!

 

[presidente]

Garee,

I've pointed out that Jesus also gave His own disciples signs. Signs are not only for unbelievers. Signs can also be for believers if God chooses. The verse you quoted to support your theory did not support it.

There are also different types of signs.

You have an anti-signs bias that I do not see in the Bible. In Acts 4, the disciples asked God to stretch out His hand and do signs and wonders. It is okay to follow apostolic example in this regard.

The fact that the disciples asked Jesus for a sign and prayed to God for signs and wonders does not mean they had no faith or that they lacked faith.

 

[VCO]

Great information.

You can let him know his continuous stretching of the truth and misquoting my posts are a large part of why I put him on my Ignore List. l can tell him, I did not block him (NO SUCH OPTION THAT I KNOW OF), however he flat earned to right to be my Ignore List. It was also because he refused to honor my offer to just Agree to Disagree, and JUST KEPT ARGUING, validating that his continuous ARGUING was an addiction; and I refused to continue to be his enabler. It had NOTHING to do with his debunking anything I said, primary because in my opinion, his arguing or so-called rebuttles held no more water than the inside liner of a minnow bucket, outside the bucket.

Titus 3:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.


By adding him to my ignore list, THIS is all that shows up on my Computer whenever he posts on any thread:

presidente
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[VCO]

Paul tells about the talking in tongues as the language of angels... He explains that it was his wish that all had the gift of the spirit to speak in tongues. He further goes on to explain that speaking in tongues only edifies the one speaking in tongues and that they should also be able to interpret what they say so that others can be edified in the spirit also. Paul explains that to an outsider, speaking in tongues my scare them away and cause them to think that the church has gone mad. Speaking in tongues is explained as a communication between the one speaking and God and that any confusion should be followed up with clarity by interpretation so that all may receive edification. It's explained by apostle Paul in the Word.

I am not going to repost everything already said on this thread, so know that the vast majority Protestant Churches think the Charismatics and Pentecostals misinterpret those verses you are referring to. We can just Agree to Disagree for the sake of Peace in the Flock, because it will not keep anyone out heaven either way.

 

[VCO]

Garee, l left lutheren church after I turned to Christ, because the Pastor only nominal christian. But this was not my point when I wrote to 88!

I too left the Lutheran Church too. Primarily because the Elders ordered the Pastor to shorten his sermons, "because after all we want to get out of here before noon." His sermons were already down to 15 minutes when they told him that. He confided that info to me when I went in to ask him if he could lengthen his sermons to at least 30 minutes because it felt like I was on a starvation diet spiritually. He left, moving half ways across the Country, and went to a Church that left the length of his sermons up to him. I left and started hunting for a non-denominational Bible Teaching Church. A couple of Churches that I tried had one hour of sing praises and only about 20 minutes of Teaching the Word. JESUS told Peter three times to FEED MY SHEEP, not maintain my Order of Service or SING may Praises. To me that meant TEACH THEM MY WORD, should dominate the Service.

Most of the non-charismatic Bible Teaching Churches that I have been involved in, have ONE HOUR OF BIBLE TEACHING, preceded by Prayers, Singing, and Announcements that do not take over a half hour total.

True Story about a nominal Pastor. One time when my wife and I were traveling on a Sunday, we had her Mother with us too, we hated to miss Church, so we stopped a little church out in the country that was a Baptist Church. The Pastor preached in a monotone, and that Sermon was the most boring that I had ever heard. After Church as we were walking to the car, my Mother-inlaw said, "Sometimes I think there are men who think God called them to Preach, when HE was really calling them to Plow." LOL, I thought I was going to fall over laughing.

 

[stonesoffire]

You can let him know his continuous stretching of the truth and misquoting my posts are a large part of why I put him on my Ignore List. l can tell him, I did not block him (NO SUCH OPTION THAT I KNOW OF), however he flat earned to right to be my Ignore List. It was also because he refused to honor my offer to just Agree to Disagree, and JUST KEPT ARGUING, validating that his continuous ARGUING was an addiction; and I refused to continue to be his enabler. It had NOTHING to do with his debunking anything I said, primary because in my opinion, his arguing or so-called rebuttles held no more water than the inside liner of a minnow bucket, outside the bucket.

Titus 3:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.


By adding him to my ignore list, THIS is all that shows up on my Computer whenever he posts on any thread:

presidente
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VCO

Didnt you initially say you would not debate charasmatics or Pentecostals on the unscriptural info you were presenting?

So who really was arguing? You are posting on a discussion forum so anyone has the right to discuss or even refute your unscriptural info.

 

[presidente]

VCO

Didnt you initially say you would not debate charasmatics or Pentecostals on the unscriptural info you were presenting?

So who really was arguing? You are posting on a discussion forum so anyone has the right to discuss or even refute your unscriptural info.

Yeah, he hasn't been very consistent. He kept saying he wouldn't debate when discussing with me. I wanted to see if he'd stick to his word. He kept doing it. I told him if he didn't want to, it was easy, just don't past. He was posting error, and I was pointing it out. He kept insisting that I 'agree to disagree.'

He insists he doesn't want to discuss or debate, but then does it. When you nail him down on issues he got wrong, he won't address them. With me, he put me on ignore.

There is an easy way not to engage in conversation if you don't want to. It's call self-control. You just don't post back.

The 'ignore' feature is weird to me. I don't get it. It's kind of like setting your alarm 15 minutes early and then realizing you aren't late and saying, "I really fooled myself. I got myself good."

It seems kind of control freakish to me to post on a discussion forum that you don't own and insist that other people don't respond to your posts, especially if you are posting doctrinal and flat out factual errors and other people are rebutting them.

 

[presidente]

I've got to say the minnow bucket is a good metaphor for a conversation with VCO on this topic-- a bucket without water in it.

He said that Apollo priests used to tell people to 'say batta batta' to get them to speak gibberish. But when you ask for primary sources that actually say this happened, he doesn't have any. He's probably just repeating someone who made it up as a theory. He argued that this is the origin of 'vain repetitions' in Greek. I posted a message which offers a counter argument to the idea that Apollo priestesses were speaking in gibberish, since first century Plutarch was arguing their prophecies could be plain language rather than poetry.

VCO has argued that 'tongue' as opposed to the plural 'tongues' in I Corinthians 14 refers to gibberish, but in verse 27, Paul specifically commands to allow a 'tongue' (singular in Greek as well), and verse 28 gives instructions that it be interpreted.

I also pointed out that there was no evidence from the text for the idea that Corinthian church members were speaking in false pagan gibberish or were cursing Christ in church.

Of course, he didn't address these specifics. When you point that sort of thing out, he starts insisting you 'agree to disagree.' I'm not going to endorse disbelief of the word of God by agreeing to such. Americans tend to be big on individual rights. The way I see it no one has a right to beliefs that are contrary to the word of God or to disobey God. These are wrongs, not rights.

 

[stonesoffire]

Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life. I don't think He would agree to disagree.

I know there are those who might think a firm stand on scripture is unloving. The problem really is though, will we believe all the scripture or just half? And was Jesus really victorious over principalities and powers of the demonic realm? He had a reason to give the body of Christ His own overcoming power. To say that one might be cursing Him while worshipping Him in His own Spirit is just way too ridiculous to not challenge.

It's love to speak the truth no matter how uncomfortable it may be to do so.

 

[wolfwint]

Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life. I don't think He would agree to disagree.

I know there are those who might think a firm stand on scripture is unloving. The problem really is though, will we believe all the scripture or just half? And was Jesus really victorious over principalities and powers of the demonic realm? He had a reason to give the body of Christ His own overcoming power. To say that one might be cursing Him while worshipping Him in His own Spirit is just way too ridiculous to not challenge.

It's love to speak the truth no matter how uncomfortable it may be to do so.

Hm Stone, why you dont give reply to me? Ore its better for you to ignore my posts? No answer is also an answer !
The word of God is truth, no question! But do you believe that all what Jesus said to his disciples is for us today, too?

 

[notuptome]

I am not going to repost everything already said on this thread, so know that the vast majority Protestant Churches think the Charismatics and Pentecostals misinterpret those verses you are referring to. We can just Agree to Disagree for the sake of Peace in the Flock, because it will not keep anyone out heaven either way.

This in and of itself is a troubling concept. I hope that you are correct and those who in my observation abuse what they call the gifts of the Spirit namely tongues have a correct knowledge of Jesus Christ which is essential to eternal life.

I know I will be blasted for this but some of the testimonies I have read regarding their conversion experience and the lack of a defined understanding of Holy Spirit baptism in regard to the regeneration or new birth is absolutely chilling.

Jesus taught us about tares and wheat. Jesus taught us that He would know who are His and who are not. I do not presume to judge because I cannot do so with certainty like the Lord Himself. There is simply a nagging inconsistency in word and actions that does not give me comfort regarding their eternal state.

I do not love them less nor do I wish evil upon them but something just isn't right. Not to worry as Paul never gave up on his kinsmen Israel I will not abandon those in the Pentecostal or Charismatic camps. I have seen the Lord do mighty works in the hearts of men and in the Lord is my hope, trust and confidence.

Rom 10:1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

if you want to argue Catholics fall into this category, ok no prob. but Jesus is saying dont follow as the pagans do, He is speaking of a bad example that existed at the present time of the statement. who was going around praying like this at that time?

The Jews were were going around praying as do the Catholics.They both followed the same pagan pattern (law of the fathers) usurping the authority of our Father in heaven by giving it over to the flesh of men, the fathers . Christ called them a brood of vipers to indicate they were false prophets.This is coming from mantras in order to form their own self government which simply made to word of God without effect . Mantras are “words of power/authority ” needed to form self-government,( autonomy. ) They are simply oral tradition of men as something they do outwardly in a hope it is evidence Christ is with them.They did not walk by faith ,as it is written but again ,after their own self righteous experiences walking by sight as if the kingdom of God was of this corrupted world world . To them a invisible church is foolishness

I think below could apply to those whose seek after signs. Christ call them an evil generation as pagans (natural unconverted men)

They simply did not want the word of God against, as Christ designed it to be.

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. And the Lord said, Where unto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.Luk 7:30

 

[jaybird88]

The Jews were were going around praying as do the Catholics. They both followed the same pagan pattern .. . .

Jews spoke in the babble tongue language?

 

[garee]

I've pointed out that Jesus also gave His own disciples signs. Signs are not only for unbelievers.

It’s not what the law which is not subject to change informs us. It does not say signs are for those who believe or for both .

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The apostate Jews as do the Catholics today, required a sign before they would believe. The cross their stumbling block..

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

It was a sign to those who did not believe prophecy ,the word of God . It warned all who did not look would die.Those who believed prophecy were moved by the faith of Christ working in them, to look.

Following the same law in 1 Corinthians 14 . Signs are for those who believe not prophesy.Prophecy (the word of God) for those who do believe.

Signs can also be for believers if God chooses. The verse you quoted to support your theory did not support it.

Not outward signs. A contrite new heart ,yes.

I would say your theory rejects his law.

There are also different types of signs.

You have an anti-signs bias that I do not see in the Bible. In Acts 4, the disciples asked God to stretch out His hand and do signs and wonders. It is okay to follow apostolic example in this regard.

What sign and wonder did He perform at that time ? Christ said it is an evil generation (natural man) that seeks after one.

The fact that the disciples asked Jesus for a sign and prayed to God for signs and wonders does not mean they had no faith or that they lacked faith.

They lacked the faith that comes form hearing God's word ,Prophecy having it in respect to their own selves. by performing a work. so its a mater of whose faith of the things of God or those of men

Faith has to do with things not seen, the eternal, not that which is seen them, temporal flesh

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Its why Christ spoke in parables hiding the spiritual meaning from those who believed not the word of God (prophecy)

2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

There is nothing to indicate we should seek after a sign (outward appearance) before we can believe, proving God is with us. .
It would seem the verse below as to how it is understood could be the issue.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

 

[VCO]

VCO

Didnt you initially say you would not debate charasmatics or Pentecostals on the unscriptural info you were presenting?

So who really was arguing? You are posting on a discussion forum so anyone has the right to discuss or even refute your unscriptural info.

I said I didn't want to post here to debate Charismatics or Pentecostals, because my experience, ever since the early 80's in over a 100 such discussions, has been that the VAST majority of those discussions with them, just lead to Charismatics and Pentecostals getting bitter and furiously mad. They usually end up showing contempt for us by yelling or using LARGE TYPE, and almost always degenerate to hurling name calling insults. I will Agree to Disagree with any of them, before love and respect goes out the window. I said, I post here to encourage the non-charismatics in OUR BELIEFS, and to show the younger ones of us, that OUR BELIEFS can be supported BIBLICALLY.

There are a few Charismatic and Pentecostal exceptions here who have proven they can discuss this subject, presenting their beliefs, WITHOUT showing BITTERNESS and CONTEMPT for those of us, who interpret these Scripture like the rest of mainline Protestants. AND, those FEW have proven that they can do this while maintaining LOVE for all the brethren, both charismatics and non-charismatics. Those FEW, I am comfortable discussing with them, why our interpretations and understandings are opposite, because I trust them to maintain mutual respect and Christ-like love, which is a two way street.