Continuationism or Cessationism

[plainguy]

So it depends on how folks define it.

Fair enough. Here's how I define an Apostle of the Lord .. the foundation of God's church today .. as in already built and established (the foundation, that is) .. and not still being built by today's supposed "apostles".

Ephesians 2:19-22

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of His household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone.21 In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in Him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Dino246]

Read New Testament passages that do apply to christians now, apply to them to your life.. and God will direct your path and speak to you in the quiet, soul deep way.

This means applying verses that you know from the NT that haven't been limited to the time they are in. There is a large amount of NT scripture applied to running churches now that you can apply.. to running a church and individually to a church member.

The Holy Spirit does guide, direct, rebuke, admonish, discipline correct, etc.. but the tools of using tongues, knowledge, prophecy, ministry gifts have been put down. Faith, hope and love are of course remaining abiding gifts in everyday life for the
believer.

The GIFT of knowledge has passed away.. not knowledge in general.. big difference. This gift of knowledge in NT times was for knowledge of God's revelation in His Word.

All the work God did in forming His early churches, empowering believers through signs and wonders, knowledge and prophecy etc.. it's for special, particular purposes. For establishing His Word by inspiring His followers.

There is no need now for this exceptional occurences. Why would God need to continue with this specialised purpose work?

Like a dad giving his children a whole lot of special things as infants, meant for there time.. then later the children want the same things.. but they have matured beyond the need for it all. He still loves them and will give them other things appropriate for them, but not the things associated with their immature, child like state.

Perfection in the bible is about maturity. Going on to maturity and putting away childish ways, immature ways.

Thanks for the response.

If perfection is about maturity, then your argument breaks down... unless you believe that every Christian, or perhaps the Church as a whole, is already mature. Further, it seems to me that your argument assumes the very thing it attempts to prove.

 

[wattie]

Thanks for the response.

If perfection is about maturity, then your argument breaks down... unless you believe that every Christian, or perhaps the Church as a whole, is already mature. Further, it seems to me that your argument assumes the very thing it attempts to prove.

The thing is .. what is going on to completion and maturity in Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 13?

Whatever is 'perfect' which is complete, mature.. in 1 Corinthians 13... is the same thing as 'the knowledge of the unity of the faith' in Ephesians 4.

So this wouldn't be about believers as a whole going on to maturity but something that has reached maturity.. or perhaps more accurately, completion.. as a reference point. Something else that has come to maturity/completion.. that has been perfected.. that is an objective thing.

So the forming of early christianity in the NT.. isn't so much that those christians got beyond the need for signs and wonders etc.. but that the objective forming of the completed canon.. and death of the apostles caused what was in part, not complete, immature to be put down. What is mature and complete is the completed Word. The gifts that God used to inspire believers in His churches then were completely associated with the revelation of His Word in the bible. Gift of knowledge.. in part.. swallowed up by the whole knowledge of the Word being complete.. gift of prophecy.. in part.. swallowed up by the coming of completed prophecy in scripture. And what we are talking about here isn't just a paper book.. but the inspiration God put into His followers in the early NT times to form His early churches and complete His Word.

 

[oldethennew]

our opinion is that 'perfection' is God's Judgment to make in any 'believer'...
it's note up for a vote...

 

[presidente]

So the forming of early christianity in the NT.. isn't so much that those christians got beyond the need for signs and wonders etc.. but that the objective forming of the completed canon.. and death of the apostles caused what was in part, not complete, immature to be put down. What is mature and complete is the completed Word. The gifts that God used to inspire believers in His churches then were completely associated with the revelation of His Word in the bible. Gift of knowledge.. in part.. swallowed up by the whole knowledge of the Word being complete.. gift of prophecy.. in part.. swallowed up by the coming of completed prophecy in scripture. And what we are talking about here isn't just a paper book.. but the inspiration God put into His followers in the early NT times to form His early churches and complete His Word.

A problem with this interpretation is that it puts the reader in a higher position than the author's of the New Testament. When the perfect comes, the understanding Paul had when he wrote I Corinthians 13 would be like the understanding of a child in comparison to the understanding he had after the perfect come. How did the New Testament being written change Paul's understanding?

The Bible does not teach that if we have the scriptures, we will understand spiritual truths better than those who wrote it. Paul wrote in Ephesians 'that by reading this, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ...'

This is what we can hope to get, according to scripture, from reading Paul's writings. We can get Paul's knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Not something light years ahead.

Historically, your assertions are not true, since the generations right after the apostles not only were not cessationist, but accepted prophesying as an active ministry in the church, in addition to various other gifts that do not fit with a cessationist world view.

 

[Dino246]

The thing is .. what is going on to completion and maturity in Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 13?
Whatever is 'perfect' which is complete, mature.. in 1 Corinthians 13... is the same thing as 'the knowledge of the unity of the faith' in Ephesians 4.
So this wouldn't be about believers as a whole going on to maturity but something that has reached maturity.. or perhaps more accurately, completion.. as a reference point. Something else that has come to maturity/completion.. that has been perfected.. that is an objective thing.

While maturity is in some ways a synonym of completion, you are making both synonyms of perfection. To me, that's a stretch. I think it's fine to say that maturity and completion may be likened to perfection, but are not true synonyms. To me, Eph. 4 is clearly discussing believers, not the Scripture. I think that if Paul meant the completion of the Canon here, he would have specified it (same thing for 1 Cor. 13).

Further, in order for this to resonate with me, the maturity spoken of in Eph. 4 could not involve an ongoing "attaining to". New Christians are constantly coming along the path to maturity, but aren't there yet. I suspect you would agree with me that the Church as a whole has not reached the unity of the faith, but are in need of being built up, equipped, and taught... which is why we still need the "equipping gifts".

So the forming of early christianity in the NT.. isn't so much that those christians got beyond the need for signs and wonders etc.. but that the objective forming of the completed canon.. and death of the apostles caused what was in part, not complete, immature to be put down. What is mature and complete is the completed Word. The gifts that God used to inspire believers in His churches then were completely associated with the revelation of His Word in the bible. Gift of knowledge.. in part.. swallowed up by the whole knowledge of the Word being complete.. gift of prophecy.. in part.. swallowed up by the coming of completed prophecy in scripture. And what we are talking about here isn't just a paper book.. but the inspiration God put into His followers in the early NT times to form His early churches and complete His Word.

If the gifts which God gave to the early Church "were completely associated with the revelation of His Word in the bible", why aren't the prophecies of Philip's daughters recorded? That they prophesied would be completely irrelevant... and I don't believe there is anything irrelevant in Scripture. Also, what would the death of the apostles have to do with anything, as the Canon was complete before the death of the last one, but after the deaths of several others?

I see the way that cessationists understand both prophecy and knowledge is extremely limiting. I can't think of a single person who has ever, in my firsthand experience, claimed that the "words" so given are equal to Scripture. Do people abuse them... yes, but that doesn't invalidate them any more than speeding invalidates automobiles. The Bible contains all the knowledge that a person needs to come to salvation and spiritual maturity (on that I hope we can agree!), but it clearly does not contain all the knowledge there is. I don't see anything in Scripture to support such a narrow view of these particular gifts. I believe that God uses them gift to convey information which could not or would not be known either through Scripture or in the natural.

 

[presidente]

plainguy

No doubt the twelve apostles established the foundation of the church in Jerusalem, if it still needed establishing. Yet decades later, Paul laid the foundation of Christ in Corinth when he introduced the gospel into a new region.

Foundation laying is not a one-time thing. It is an on-going process as long as there are unevangelized areas that become evangelized.

 

[wattie]

While maturity is in some ways a synonym of completion, you are making both synonyms of perfection. To me, that's a stretch. I think it's fine to say that maturity and completion may be likened to perfection, but are not true synonyms. To me, Eph. 4 is clearly discussing believers, not the Scripture. I think that if Paul meant the completion of the Canon here, he would have specified it (same thing for 1 Cor. 13).

Further, in order for this to resonate with me, the maturity spoken of in Eph. 4 could not involve an ongoing "attaining to". New Christians are constantly coming along the path to maturity, but aren't there yet. I suspect you would agree with me that the Church as a whole has not reached the unity of the faith, but are in need of being built up, equipped, and taught... which is why we still need the "equipping gifts".



If the gifts which God gave to the early Church "were completely associated with the revelation of His Word in the bible", why aren't the prophecies of Philip's daughters recorded? That they prophesied would be completely irrelevant... and I don't believe there is anything irrelevant in Scripture. Also, what would the death of the apostles have to do with anything, as the Canon was complete before the death of the last one, but after the deaths of several others?

I see the way that cessationists understand both prophecy and knowledge is extremely limiting. I can't think of a single person who has ever, in my firsthand experience, claimed that the "words" so given are equal to Scripture. Do people abuse them... yes, but that doesn't invalidate them any more than speeding invalidates automobiles. The Bible contains all the knowledge that a person needs to come to salvation and spiritual maturity (on that I hope we can agree!), but it clearly does not contain all the knowledge there is. I don't see anything in Scripture to support such a narrow view of these particular gifts. I believe that God uses them gift to convey information which could not or would not be known either through Scripture or in the natural.

On Ephesians 4, the 'knowledge of the unity of the faith'--

The coming of this.. allows believers (mainly in churches) to 'no longer be tossed about by every wind of doctrine'

So there it is associated with doctrine. It allows believers to have something as a reference point that counters what others would teach in different doctrines.

'Unto a perfect man'... this is again about biblical perfection, which is mainly about maturity, and something coming to completion.

'The measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ'.. it is associated as a measure, and reflects the fulness of Christ.

The Word of God is all these things.

All believers haven't all reached general 'maturity' in their spiritual selves.. but we do have a complete revelation of God's Word in scripture. Meditating on God's Word and applying it allows every believer, especially when they are in biblical churches to be spiritually mature.

And regarding prophecy and knowledge.. you gotta understand the biblical frame of reference of what these are. We are talking particular about the GIFTS of prophecy and knowledge. Not general knowledge.

Again.. it's not just the paper book that this is about, but the special inspiration God put in the likes of Paul, Timothy, Matthew, Mark, Luke etc.. that was completed with the Word of God.

Not the ink on the paper, but the way it was bought about. This isn't something that is necessary to be done again.

 

[wolfwint]

The doctrine of spiritual gifts is one of the things I am currently on the fence about. Men I admire greatly are arrayed on the side of both continuation of relevatory gifts and the cessation of them.

I see room for abuse of doctrines on both sides- on one extreme there is tendency for a cold reduction of the spiritual realm. An over-rationalization of the spiritual. On the other this crazed cacophony of baseless prophetic assertions and bizarre behavior.

Going by the text alone, I find myself being Cessationist one day and Continuationist the next to the point I suspect it's all dependent on how I brew my coffee in the morning.

So I'm leaving it to you, Christian Chat.

Where do you tend to fall- Cessation or Continuation?

Why?

Are there Biblical limitations you see that stop you from falling into the two extremes mentioned above?

Good question, for me it seems that we human beeing tending always to fall from the one ore the other side from the horse.

If we talk about the spirit gifts then it is the question about the so called sign gifts (healing, prophecy, speaking in tongues, miracles)
For all other gifts is no discussion, we believe they are continue.

1. Cor. 13, 8 is in deed difficult to see and the scholars arenot unique in their results, why because it is not clear what teleios means.

If I am not wrong, the doctrine that the sign gifts are for the church today as they was in the day of corinthians came up with the pentecost movement first.

If I am not wrong then the gifts where in the apostolic time to all churches and not only to the church of corinth. Also in this time there was no denominations, but churches with christians from gentile ore jewish background. And to got the gifts where also not a question about spirituell ore moral mature, when we read in what Paul wrote about the believers in Corinth.

So my/ our expection should be that every born again christian is getting a spirituell gift. And so that also the sign gifts would be a part of every church during the churchhistory till today. It would be normal to have them!
But it seems not so! Otherwise there would be no need for an new pentecostal expierience which gave the pentecostal movement the name.

But we can find many heretical and also big movements which practise the sign gifts. Are they are right? Because they are giftet with them?

The beginning of the pentecostal movement caused the biggest division among believers in our time, if i am not wrong!
And this makes me wonder!

So, i tend to be a cessianist regarding the sign gifts for the church, but i believe that God is working in the missionfield in the way he wants to use for to show his power and to open his choosen people for the truth. This can be miracles, healings, dreams, visions, prophecy, sign gifts which he used also through the apostels in the apostolic time.

 

[Spokenpassage]

I fall under cessationalism. Hebrews 2:3-4, for an example, shows that those special gifts were distributed to confirm and bear witness to apostolic teachings. Since the completion of the New Testament, there is no necessity for those special gifts. All that we need is sufficient and certainly found in the infallible Scriptures.

 

[Dino246]

I fall under cessationalism. Hebrews 2:3-4, for an example, shows that those special gifts were distributed to confirm and bear witness to apostolic teachings. Since the completion of the New Testament, there is no necessity for those special gifts. All that we need is sufficient and certainly found in the infallible Scriptures.

Are you claiming that these verses limit the miraculous to that time and to the apostles only? If so, it's a logical error: assuming that because God did "x" it means He did not do "y", "z" and "q". Remember that not everything which God has done (or continues to do!) is recorded in Scripture (see John 21:25).

 

[Spokenpassage]

Are you claiming that these verses limit the miraculous to that time and to the apostles only? If so, it's a logical error: assuming that because God did "x" it means He did not do "y", "z" and "q". Remember that not everything which God has done (or continues to do!) is recorded in Scripture (see John 21:25).

I am claiming that throughout Scripture particular signs and wonders were occasional and had a purpose in redemptive history. If we still have these gifts, we must be limiting God in using us for these last two thousand years.

 

[Johnny_B]

Here's something that might help. Daniel 9:4 "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy."

Now compare I Corinthians 13:8-10 "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away."

It seems like everlasting righteousness or the perfect come, is going to be the end of prophecy and visions.

If the gifts are done, it all the gifts it can't just be the ones you don't understand. People that believe the gifts are gone, it's because they don't know all the gift or think that I Corinthians 13:10 only applies to the gifts in I Corinthians 12:4-10 but not 12:27-31 because they all believe in teachers or teaching, helps, administerings, knowledge, wisdom, pastors, discernment and speaks the Oracles of God. I think where some misinterpret one of the gifts, is in desire to prophecy. This word doesn't as a prophet, it's proclaiming the word of God.

There are gift to be used for your own building up and the rest are for the building or equipping of the saints. To bring us to maturity in the fullness of Christ.

The gifts are for today, tongues should not be spoken in the Church unless there is an interpreter, it's for private worship of God and prayer and if an unbeliever came in he would think we were and or crazy. Here's the problem I see, lots of the supernatural gifts believers make a show out of it and they think it make them more spiritual, then believers that don't practice in the gifts, that's immature. Which is the whole point of the gifts, to equip the saints, to build up the body.

I believe the Lord heals today, does He do it when people are making a show of it, no. Do I think that a lot of the tongue speaking is fake, yes, but there are real believers that speak in tongues, do I, I have but I haven't in quite a while. Everything should be done in order, the Holy Spirit is a gentlemen and is not the author of confusion. I've been in services where people were running around with their eyes supposedly closed, jumping up and down, shaking uncontrollably and it fear me out.

I when to a Church that had a time for the gifts and prayer, it was done in order it was a good time of praying for different things and praying for the sick as well. There are a few Reformed Systematic Theology books that the authors believe in the gifts for today, Wayne Grudem is one of them. I have the Foundations of Pentecostal Theology and it teaches election for salvation from the Reformed view, they were not Reformed or Calvinist to the full extent, I guess you'd say they were 3 or 4 point Calvinist if that's possible it has been a while since I've read it so I may be remembering it wrong.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It seems to me like continuationists need to clean up their house, before they expect us to take them seriously.

A good video on false prophets, in the context of Corona virus.

Justin Peters looks at their false claims.

 

[Dave-L]

Why all the COVID19 deaths and suffering if the Charismatics have the Gifts? Not one report of one healing..........

 

[Dino246]

It seems to me like continuationists need to clean up their house, before they expect us to take them seriously.

A good video on false prophets, in the context of Corona virus.

Justin Peters looks at their false claims.

There is no need to pollute the forum with multiple posts of the same content.