Don't choke the BABY! Let new Christians drink their milk before you force feed them

[Ariel82]

Matthew 3
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Change their minds from trusting in the law or themselves, and trust totally in Jesus.

They also trusted in having Abraham as their father (they threw that in the face of our Lord Jesus Christ):


Matthew 3:


7 But when he [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[Ariel82]

Please give me your exact interpretation of what you think the word, REPENT, means.

Repentance happens when God convicts people of their sins and they admit to being wrong, turning from their sin back to God, seeking His truth and way.

 

[Ariel82]

Haha jinx renewed. Its interesting we focus on two different verses.

I wonder what are the" fruits of repentance"?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The fruit of repentance...growth in humility and growing lack of arrogance and presumptuousness. That's what I have noted.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Haha jinx renewed. Its interesting we focus on two different verses.

I wonder what are the" fruits of repentance"?

In Luke 3, when John told them to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, the people asked him what they should do:

Luke 3:

10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?

11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?

13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.

14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.


In Acts 2, when the believers were born again:

Acts 2:

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

From Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:

especially the change of mind of those who have begun to abhor their errors and misdeeds, and have determined to enter upon a better course of life, so that it embraces both a recognition of sin and sorrow for it and hearty amendment, the tokens and effects of which are good deeds

 

[royalscot]

You mean when people preached "Repent the Kingdom of God is at hand." they got it wrong?

Matthew 4v17
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

context, context context.
if a gentile ,dose not have a law to repent from, then you would have to ask why there is a acts 10 and 15. in the bible.

and if there is no temple of stone, how can you follow the full law given the requirement of this law had on the temple.

and as the jewish people already had a law, then repent with a voice v take a animal to the temple, for forgiveness.

change had to be put in place some how. and for the record, jesus christ was sent to a jewish people at the time of his earthly ministry.

"You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me."acts 10

yet even jesus christ , healed the gentiles

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.Galatians 5

even paul grasps this understanding.

the fact you repent and never answer what a new covenant is , either shows naive or blindness to your own stand .

because you back to square one.

no condemnation v condemnation.

 

[Ariel82]

Royal Scot we haven't even touch on the new covenant, since there is still discussion of what repentance and dead works truly entitles.

I have stated that the Hebrews had to repent from BOTH the works of the flesh (which leads to death) and works of the law (which doesn't save anyone) and instead turn to faith towards God (which is the gospel).

Perhaps it got lost in the conversation or didn't get posted. I will check. Technology does that sometimes.

 

[Ariel82]

After sleeping on it, I believe point 1 is the gospel message (specifically that only faith in Jesus and his death on the cross for the remission of sins can save anyone.) and many of us don't go beyond talking about that to most people.

That is the basic foundation and I wish I had more time to elaborate.

However to the laying on of hands, I remember the scriptures talking about how the Apostles layed hands on Paul before sending him on his mission trip to the gentile. Also Paul mentions Timothy having received his gifts and office through the laying on of hands. There is another scripture of the elders laying on of hands and announcing of oil someone who is sick.

Those are the three that come to mind right away,but we also have all the times Jesus laid His hands on people and they were healed.

If I get I chance, i will find and post the scriptures.

2.
Baptisms: water baptism of repentence (death) and Holy Spirit baptism that empowers the believer to live a godly life, renew the mind and do the good works God created us to do. (resurrection, New birth)

4. Resurrection of the dead will occur when Jesus returns to judge the world. We will be given new bodies that will be eternal. New heaven, New earth, no seas or suffering. God will wipe every year from our eyes. See revelation 20 and 21 and another verse i have to look up.

5. Eternal judgment. Just as there is a heaven, there is a hell. We want everyone to join us in Heaven but some will continue to reject God and rebell. They will be destroyed. Satan, death, the false prophet and the beast will be cast in hell. However, God will save His children. Back to 1....you are not made a child of God by your own works but by what Jesus did for you upon the cross. Die the flesh and be raised again by the Spirit to a renewed life as a Child of God.

(scriptures pending)

Okay does that make any sense?

Okay this is a summary. Haven't really expanded upon any points. Since we got stuck on discussing repentance and folks wanted to detour the conversation to eschatology.

 

[Ariel82]

It could also mean that Hebrews 6:1-3 is talking about the Jewish ideas of the Messiah ( Christ ) as seen in the law of Moses and from their traditions from the rabbi's.

If we view this book of Hebrews with our western evangelical "Christianized" minds - we might miss what the author is trying to say to these Jewish people. This is a distinct possibility.


Hebrews 6:1-3 The author was saying these are elementary things, and we need to go past these things to maturity. In context, the more mature things he was speaking of are detailed in the last few verses of Hebrews 5:13-14. There, the deeper thing he was urging us on to was "the word of righteousness."

If we used the westernized view and we determined that it is all about the application of it in Christian terms "after" we come to Jesus as we know Him as gentiles in Christ - then I would offer this view of "Laying on of hands"

The laying on of hands can be interpreted in two ways. There is a doctrine of imparting spiritual gifts and anointing, such as the anointing to heal, through the laying on of our hands (Mark 16:18). Paul and others would do this too. ( Acts 28:8 )

There was the time where they "laid hands" on Paul and Silas before they went out to preach the gospel. ( Acts 13:3 )

There was the time that Peter and John "laid hands" on those in Samaria to receive the Holy Spirit ( which indicates an event after they had received the word of God when Philip had preached Christ to them ) Acts 8:14-17

Paul did the exact same thing with the Ephesians - he laid his hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit after they believed in Christ. ( Acts 19:1-6 )

Then there is also ordination by the laying on of hands. In ordination, gifts are also imparted (1 Tim. 4:14 and 2 Tim. 1:6), and honor and recognition are also conferred on the one being ordained (1 Tim. 5:22).

The apostles also "laid hands" on the deacons after they were picked out by the people. ( Acts 6:6 )

The laying on of hands seems to be a way of bringing about a blessing of some sorts depending on the need and circumstance. Perhaps another term would be "a releasing of goodness" on people?

Jesus was constantly laying His hands for blessing - for healing , for blessing little children.

There was a lot to do with the "laying on of hands" when I looked at it.

If I look at it that Hebrews 6:2 is talking about our western view of talking about "after" we come to Christ and Hebrews is not talking about the "Jewish ways" - I would look at these points.

Baptisms/washings can be tricky too - because there is only one real baptism as viewed by Paul.

Hebrews 6:2 says there is the doctrine of baptisms (plural). Eph. 4:5 says there is only one baptism. But this is speaking of the baptism by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ ( 1 Cor. 12:13 )). The point in Eph. 4:5 is that there aren’t different bodies of Christ. We have all been put into the one body of Christ. But there are more than this one baptism.

There is water baptism where a new believer goes through the rite of being immersed in water to symbolize in the natural what has taken place in the spiritual. In the spiritual, the new believer is immediately immersed (exactly what the transliterated Greek word “baptizo” means) into Christ’s body (1 Cor. 12:13 ).

This baptism is definitely different from the baptism John and Jesus prophesied because the persons doing the baptisms are different, and the elements into which we are being baptized are different. The Holy Spirit is the Baptizer into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13 ), but Jesus is the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:11, Mark 1:8, and John 1:23).

On the Jewish side of things - the "washings/baptisms" were things done according to the law of Moses of which the author of Hebrews talks about a little later in Heb. 9:10 where the exact same Greek word is used as in Heb. 6:2

The NASB actually translates this out as "instructions of washings" - relating to the Jewish law of Moses and traditions.

Hebrews 6:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.


Hebrews 9:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

Here Jesus Himself uses the same Greek word "washings/baptisms" in relating to the Jewish law and traditions.

Mark 7:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Grace added these thoughts. I haven't had time to check all the scriptures and decide if I agree or disagree with his conclusions yet, but I do find them interesting and will look into it,

 

[Grace777x70]

Matthew 3
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

I love that scripture as it shows that the religious establishment of John the Baptists day would not submit to John's baptism because they did not see their need to be baptized.

That's why he told them to bear fruits of repentance and that would have been done by being baptized which would say they had sin. Acknowledging their need for a Savior. The fruit of their repentance would have been being baptized.

John was preparing the way for the Lord Jesus. We need to acknowledge that we have sin and need a savior. The religious folks of that day denied this which is one of the reasons Jesus elevated the law to show their real sin.

 

[Grace777x70]

Repentance happens when God convicts people of their sins and they admit to being wrong, turning from their sin back to God, seeking His truth and way.

Repentance and "fruits of repentance" are 2 different things.

Religion ( as to the New Covenant) has put the fruits as the actual repentance and thus have missed the whole meaning of repentance in the first place when dealing with the gospel.

( This does not mean that we don't stop doing bad things that destroy us and others ..I needed to say that as this always gets brought up when talking about repentance)

 

[Ariel82]

The Pharisees and scribes had many sins that Jesus pointed out: hyprocrisy, unbelief of Jesus as Messiah, belief that their Abrahamic blood would save them, etc.

However we are not scribes or pharisees, what does God call us to repent from now?

How would you explain the gospel message to an unbeliever?

 

[Ariel82]

To repent is not the fruit of repentance. That doesn't even make sense. Like saying the egg laid the chicken.

 

[Grace777x70]

The Pharisees and scribes had many sins that Jesus pointed out: hyprocrisy, unbelief of Jesus as Messiah, belief that their Abrahamic blood would save them, etc.

However we are not scribes or pharisees, what does God call us to repent from now?

How would you explain the gospel message to an unbeliever?

I have to go now but I will be happy to give my views on this when I get back home - complete with scriptures. All good questions! Thanks Ariel.

 

[Grace777x70]

To repent is not the fruit of repentance. That doesn't even make sense. Like saying the egg laid the chicken.

It makes total sense when we see what the true meaning of repent means - and then we see what the "fruits of that repentance" brings in the New Covenant of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.....

I have to go now but I know Willie knows the difference and maybe he has time to talk about it. Have a great rest of the day.

 

[Willie-T]

Please give me your exact interpretation of what you think the word, REPENT, means.

Repentance happens when God convicts people of their sins and they admit to being wrong, turning from their sin back to God, seeking His truth and way.

This thread is getting a little too convoluted. Maybe we can continue some other time. But, in the meantime, perhaps you can decide why it is recorded in the Bible that God REPENTED at least 28 times, if that word meant knocking off His sinning. (Yes, it did. You can easily Google that point.)

 

[Willie-T]

Points to consider: Does ceasing to sin save anyone? Is a sinless life required before we can come to Christ? Do you need to become sinless before you can believe in Christ?

 

[Ariel82]

John and Jesus did not preach "repent of the old covenant and turn your mind to the new covenant." the new covenant was not fully established until Jesus was crucified, ressurected and ascended to Heaven. Then He sent the Holy Spirit.

They taught repent to show that all are guilty under the law and all need a savior.

Changing the meaning of terms just seems like sour milk.

 

[Ariel82]

This thread is getting a little too convoluted. Maybe we can continue some other time. But, in the meantime, perhaps you can decide why it is recorded in the Bible that God REPENTED at least 28 times, if that word meant knocking off His sinning. (Yes, it did. You can easily Google that point.)

You want to make the point that to repent is to change ones mind. That the Hebrews needed to change their minds from the old covenant way of becoming blameless to the new covenant way of salvation.

That the blood of animals never truly cleansed sins but the blood of Christ upon of the Heavenly altar is true propiatiation for sins.

While that is true, they should also repent of works of the flesh and learn to do works of the Spirit.